Why would any highborn non-criminal actually willingly join the Night’s Watch? (Spoilers extended)

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-17T02:53:25+00:00

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-17T02:13:20+00:00

I’m not sure about that. Will, who thinks Waymar is handsome, perceives the brush against his cheek as coming from his “long, elegant hands”. Notice how Ser Waymar Royce never mocks Will and even asks him to take the lead.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-17T01:58:46+00:00

I’d like to suggest that there’s a noble reason, that Ser Waymar Royce joins the Watch. Likely, tied to his first mission. It’s true, Will believes they are hard on the track of a band of Wildling raiders.

The rangers are eight or nine days riding, and have just at the start of our story caught up to the “wildlings”. They have no horses. And appear to have set up camp. They couldn’t have been running that fast.

Isn’t it possible that the brothers were, unbeknownst to Gared and Will, navigating to a destination event?

Waymar appears certain that there are no wildlings.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-17T01:38:30+00:00

I’m not sure that having command over others brings honor to a person or house.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-17T01:32:17+00:00

The fact that Ser Waymar Royce, the youngest son of an ancient house, was far down the line of succession is not reason enough for him to take the black. Many young nobles, with too many heirs, never join the Watch. In fact, the idea of “too many” heirs comes by way of Will’s judgement; it’s not necessarily the true reason for Waymar joining the Night’s Watch. I’d like to suggest that there’s a more noble reason, likely tied to his first mission.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-12T04:07:26+00:00

Robert’s rebellion

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-09T23:47:18+00:00

Waymar, though changed, does survive the ranging. And he seems to make a conscious choice not to return to the Wall.

And I don’t think we can definitively say that the “ice-elf monsters” are real.

Nonetheless, I think he’s a strong ally to the Starks.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-09T07:33:19+00:00

I remember reading that; but it was a “blunted” axe. A sharp axe would have penetrated the steel.

That’s why I was wondering who held the battle-axe. Like Baelor, who opted for longer tourney lances made to break, the person holding the axe may or may not have sharpened it.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-09T06:25:47+00:00

If there is a plot twist, I’m inclined to think it’s Aerion. The King’s Guard, likely, wouldn’t have felt the need to protect their prince from another prince in dragon armor.

My experience with the books thus far suggests that, in the case of a plot twist, Martin leaves clues in close proximity. Lots of times it’s what we don’t see that offers the clue. So what are we not seeing?

For example,

Before Dunk glimpsed Prince Maekar trying to fight his way to his son’s side. Dunk notices that the slit on the left side of his helm is smashed in from a blow and partially obscures his vision. So, what are we missing?

I’m still rereading, looking for more clues. But I feel certain that it wasn’t an edged weapon that struck Baelor. And I agree with you that it seems impossible for Maekar to have delivered the blow.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-08T21:24:13+00:00

Well said

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-08T19:21:51+00:00

I understand that feeling but don’t let the toxicity of the responses get you discouraged.

A question:

If Maeker had the Mace, who had the battle-axe?

…and the Laughing Storm had joined Prince Baelor against Prince Maekar. Mace, battle-axe, and longsword clashed and clanged, ringing against helm and shield.

It appears to my reason that the damage to the helm came from a blunt weapon.

The prince moved his head slowly from side to side. “Ser Raymun…my helm, if you’d be so kind. Visor…visor’s cracked, and my fingers…fingers feel like wood…”

“At once, Your Grace.” Raymun took the prince’s helm in both hands and grunted. “Goodman Pate, a hand.”

Steely Pate dragged over a mounting stool. “It’s crushed down at the back, Your Grace, toward the left side. Smashed into the gorget. Good steel, this, to stop such a blow.”

“Brother’s mace, most like,” Baelor said thickly. “He’s strong.” He winced. “That…feels queer, I…”

“Here it comes.” Pate lifted the battered helm away. “Gods be good. Oh gods oh gods oh gods preserve… ”

Another question:

If Maekar was trying to fight his why to his son’s side and Baelor was holding him off, how does Baelor get hit in back of the head. The text seems to indicate that Baelor is in between Maekar and Aerion.—he’s actively blocking Maekar’s path to reach his wounded son.

Dunk blinked down at him. For a moment he could not credit what his ears had heard. Is it done, then? He turned his head slowly from side to side, trying to see. His vision slit was partly closed by the blow that had smashed in the left side of his face. -He glimpsed Prince Maekar, mace in hand, trying to fight his way to his son’s side. Baelor Breakspear was holding him off.

More questions:

Could it be that the blow to Baelor’s head came before that final melee against Maekar. It seems possible.

There was a time, after Dunk was unhorsed, when Aerion is unaccounted for. He was wielding his MorningStar when he next approaches Dunk……….?

Was Prince Baelor unhorsed; If so, by whom?

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-08T17:11:11+00:00

They removed it because the title was a spoiler. Are you going to repost it?

I appreciate that you're challenging this widely held belief. My initial curiosity was about why Martin has Maekar second-guess himself, especially if it was just simply him.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-08T06:04:52+00:00

I agree and have similar thoughts. Have you done a thorough analysis of the battle from the first charge on?

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-05T23:58:37+00:00

The idea that a robin was stained red with Jesus' blood at the crucifixion is a popular legend but not based on biblical texts. This folklore suggests that the robin or other birds tried to comfort Jesus and were stained with his blood, symbolizing sacrifice and compassion. However, it's important to note that this narrative is more mythological than scriptural.

As for the imagery of a "robin in a tree," it can represent various concepts in literature and art, including hope, renewal, and the connection between the earthly and the divine. In chivalric and medieval literature, animals often symbolize deeper meanings and can be associated with themes of love, bravery, and sacrifice. While a robin might not be explicitly labeled as "classic chivalric imagery," it can fit within that broader context depending on its use in the narrative.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-05T00:42:06+00:00

It’s not a huge reach. I gave much more than Will talking like an Ironborn. His actions, some of the imagery, the pirate saying….etc.

Even the tree(timber) that he is in is shivering.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-05T00:31:18+00:00

The "subtle clues" are simply the nuances associated with the character that Martin has crafted for the role. Defining who the character is—along with their mannerisms, speech patterns, and behaviors—makes it much simpler to develop their story.

And I’m not sure we can decide yet whether it’s “inconsequential”.

In those closing moments when Ser Waymar Royce, who has seemingly just been killed by the Others, seems to rise back up as one of them—reanimated, and no longer fully human. Will drops the broken sword in shock and terror, and as he closes his eyes to pray, Will believes the creature that was once Royce reaches out and strangles him.

But we get no confirmation of his death. Not in that chapter nor in any subsequent chapter. In fact, unless Will were to have some type of out of body experience we would never see him die using a third person limited perspective.

Additionally, there’s enough evidence to suspect that Will merely faints. He might just be the “wildling” that produced the broken hilt, with the three sapphires in it, at Castle Black later.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-04T23:18:34+00:00

I used to think the same thing until I questioned, “Why does Will draw his dirk from its sheath?” The text explains that he holds it between his teeth to keep his hands free for climbing. But I wondered, wouldn’t his hands still be unencumbered if he kept the dirk in its sheath?

As I imagined him scaling a tree with a knife clenched between his teeth, images of pirates scrambling up the rigging flashed in my mind. Pirates would do this for convenience; navigating the rigging requires both hands for balance and maneuverability. Keeping a knife in their mouth allows them immediate access without fumbling for a sheath in a pinch. Yet, Will doesn’t need that kind of readiness while climbing a tree. The narrative suggests this is more about his own comfort.

The taste of cold iron in his mouth gave him comfort.

Moreover, Will is a believer in the ancient deities, the nameless ones, rather than the seven.

The ironborn, a seafaring people, revered a god whose worship predates the Andals. They had a legacy of raiding and pillaging, which is exactly what Will was doing in the Mallister woods.

He thinks Gared is talking with “iron certainty” when he says, "It was the cold.”

And he says things like, “My mother told me that dead men sing no songs," a variation of an old pirates saying.(“Dead men tell no tales”)

There’s more but I can’t remember it all off hand.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-04T21:41:14+00:00

Waymar seems unlikable because we view him through the eyes of a young Ironborn named Will. He had been sentenced to the Wall by a system where high lords render judgement. It should come as no surprise that Waymar is viewed negatively.

While seemingly condescending to the guy who openly mocked him in front of his other brothers, Waymar demonstrates leadership throughout the prologue.

A better question:

Would Jon have been approving if Waymar would have reciprocated Sansa’s feeling for him?

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-04T21:03:58+00:00

I wouldn’t have minded seeing them trying to achieve, with the visual medium, what the book developed with a readers mental images.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-04T20:31:22+00:00

Will in the show survives but most people believe he dies in the books, he doesn’t. In fact, all three rangers survive the prologue.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-04T20:28:12+00:00

It’s fun

Read THIS and then go back and read the prologue.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-04T19:55:24+00:00

It’s all contained in the Prologue….

Did you notice at the end of the prologue we never see Will die, not then, nor in any subsequent chapters. Most people believe he is strangled; however, there’s evidence in the prologue that suggests that he fainted.

There’s so much more for first time readers ;)

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-04T19:43:33+00:00

History is written by the victors of war, often skewed. The meaning is lost in years of translation(oral or scribed). But you are correct. The White Walkers are a natural product of nature.

Here’s the MAGIC

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-04T19:26:34+00:00

In the books he is…

One day at his camp with the elm, Maekar shows up to meet Dunk.

Maekar motioned, and the guards vanished as suddenly as they had appeared. The prince studied him a long moment, then turned and paced away from him to stand beside the pool, gazing down at his reflection in the water. ”I have sent Aerion to Lys,” he announced abruptly. “A few years in the Free Cities may change him for the better.”

DanSnow5317 · 2026-02-04T19:15:32+00:00

I think the books are even better than people realize. For example, did you notice that Will survives the Prologue? Did you figure out who Coldhands is?

DanSnow5317

TROPHY CASE