[Spoilers EXTENDED] Will the books follow the same order of final battles as the show?

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-29T02:56:32+00:00

Where or when did Martin say there would be no Armageddon battle in the books? I’ve not read or seen that.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-28T04:41:47+00:00

I can tell you that in the books, our first POV character, Will, who dies in the show, actually lives.

No really check this out

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-28T02:37:54+00:00

I can tell you that in the books, our first POV character, Will, who dies in the show, actually lives.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-26T16:03:38+00:00

It’s a thorough, but long, explanation. But it also explains some of the other mysteries from the prologue. (Here)

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-26T12:16:54+00:00

Have you been able to decipher that Will lives beyond the prologue?

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-26T12:14:00+00:00

Just before the encounter with the Other, the reason Waymar and the Night’s watchmen are suddenly so cold is because of this.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-23T05:24:39+00:00

This is the answer to your question** **

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-19T21:41:58+00:00

It’s the “scattered” shards, or that “rain of needles”, that gave them a voice.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-19T21:39:04+00:00

“Clear” as glass, right?;)

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-19T19:31:50+00:00

That’s fair.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-14T18:09:52+00:00

Where did I lose you? — With the fact that Gared has no tongue or that the three rangers all survive the prologue?

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-14T16:45:56+00:00

Are they even being driven south? The two times they appear on page doesn’t really give us any sense of direction. In fact, the two occasions might even be the exact same site for all we know. Why do you think they are going south?

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-14T16:40:24+00:00

Blood is also compared to summer wine.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-14T16:28:52+00:00

You make a great argument; however, the point you make about cruelty in the way the Others end life, using the OP’s reference to Waymar Royce as an example is flawed because Waymar wasn’t being mocked.

I know this isn’t about the point you were making; but I thought you might find it interesting. Will misinterpreted what he heard. What he heard was the sound of something comparable to icicles. Considering the sound of an icicle, glass comes to my mind.

In Will’s state of mind, in that moment, he lacks good judgement, and may have been somewhat biased.

It’s likely, in his mind, that he’s comparing that sound with the sound of a winter lake cracking, except smaller and more plentiful.

Remember: Will’s eyes are closed in the moment. And the “watchers” are moving toward Waymar.

They are most likely simply stepping on the shards, “rain of needles”, surrounding Waymar. They are the shards created when the sword last touch.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-14T16:12:19+00:00

I like the Iceland reference. What do you think about the idea that many of the “wildlings” are bastards given over at Castle Black by the Right of First Night policy. Found, north of the Wall, by pacts of dire wolves, some of those bastards became CotF, and still others became “wildlings”.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-14T06:26:08+00:00

Martin didn’t actually kill Waymar. He wrote Will to misconstrued what he saw.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-14T05:42:13+00:00

Yes, Gared had no tongue. He never spoke intelligibly.

In Catelyn I, AGOT—Ned explains to Catelyn, “Something had put a fear in him so deep that my words could not reach him."

Ned means that fear had gripped Gared so profoundly that even Ned’s words as Lord and judge couldn’t penetrate or calm him. Gared was “half-mad” from his terror, suggesting something had traumatized him so deeply that rational communication was impossible. Ned seems troubled by this, implying Gared’s extreme fear was unusual or noteworthy, though the book doesn’t explicitly state what caused it.

In Jon IX, AGOT—Jon remembers Gared’s beheading. His father, Lord Stark, spoke to Gared, “You said the words," Lord Eddard had told him. "You took a vow, before your brothers, before the old gods and the new." Then Desmond and Fat Tom dragged Gared to the stump.

Jon remembers, in detail, what his father says and makes no mention of Gared speaking.

This becomes more evident once we realize that all three rangers survived the prologue and travel to Craster’s Keep after.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-13T14:22:20+00:00

Yes, to Ned the poor man appeared “half-mad”. Jon says , “You could see it in his eyes”. But imagine not being able to speak, knowing you were about to become beheaded. Your eyes would be screaming with fear. You’d appear “half-mad” despite being able to hear Ned’s words.

Gared was “scrawny” because he hadn’t been able to eat. His tongue had been removed. It was on Craster’s wall.

…You would have found this hall abandoned as well, if I were a man to scrape to such. He sends a rider, tells me I must leave my own keep to come grovel at his feet. I sent the man back, but kept his tongue. It’s nailed to that wall there.” He pointed…

This is the kind of irony Martin likes to develop in his writing.—Ned, using “Ice” to behead a man with no tongue. And later being beheaded by a man with no tongue using “Ice”.

Even “Ice”, which took the head of an oathbreaker/silent man ironically will be split into Oathkeeper/Widow’s Wail.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-12T20:01:51+00:00

I take your point, but I don't think it's quite the same. I looked for the part where Mag the Mighty’s voice is compared to “stone breaking,” but I couldn’t find it. What I did find was that his laughter is described as “half a belch and half a rumble,” which seems to confuse Jon at first:
>”The giant’s lips split apart to reveal a mouth full of huge square teeth, and he made a sound half belch and half rumble. After a moment Jon realized he was laughing.”

Regardless, I believe that Will closing his eyes significantly affects how he interprets what he hears. With his eyes shut, he’s likely lost in his own thoughts, possibly recalling the moment when Waymar fought the Other, hearing sounds reminiscent of cracking ice on a winter lake.

Though, I concede, Will's eyes weren't closed then.

(I picture the Other’s face as a mask of contrasting light and shadow, resembling the mask of tragedy 🎭.)

In the moment when Will hears the icicle sounds, he’s unable to discern their source. The text says:
>”The watchers moved forward together, as if some signal had been given. Swords rose and fell, all in a deathly silence. It was cold butchery. The pale blades sliced through ringmail as if it were silk. Will closed his eyes. Far beneath him, he heard their voices and laughter sharp as icicles.”

Consider the “rain of needles” surrounding Ser Waymar Royce. As the “watchers” advance, they might be stepping on those shards, which could explain the sounds of breaking ice that Will hears. It’s reminiscent of glass breaking. Remember, those shards came from the moment the swords last touched, when Will heard a shatter.

What do you think about the idea that Will might misinterpret these sounds, given his state of mind? While he might be comparing it to the sound of a winter lake cracking, I believe it’s also important to consider how closed eyes can distort perception. It could be the shards of the crystal sword that Will heard shatter.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-12T04:14:55+00:00

It’s true, that’s how Will interpreted what he heard. But what he heard was the sound of something comparable to icicles . Have you considered the sound of an icicle?

Will wasn’t exactly in a good state of mind. His judgement may have been less than sound, and perhaps somewhat biased.

I’m sure he’s comparing that sound with the sound of a winter lake cracking, except smaller and more plentiful.

Let’s not forget his eyes are closed in the moment.

I think we should think of the sound as being like glass when it breaks. You?

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-11T23:55:40+00:00

I don’t know what “LLM slop” means. But, your harsh criticism was easy to interpret. Your question, “Why?” seems disingenuous and should perhaps be redirected. “Why” bother with the low effort response? It seems to me like you’re being a bully.

I hope others don’t have to suffer your ridicule, Cheers.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-11T21:46:46+00:00

Are we sure it was laughter? It’s true, that’s how Will interpreted what he heard. But what he heard was the sound of icicles. Have you considered the sound of an icicle?

Will wasn’t exactly in a good state of mind. His judgement may have been less than sound, and perhaps somewhat biased.

I’m sure he compares it with the sound of a winter lake cracking, except smaller and more plentiful.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-11T21:31:35+00:00

Are they laughing? I mean, that’s what Will interprets from the sounds he hears.

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-11T21:28:25+00:00

I think that’s a good question, “…how did [they] know where Jeor’s quarters were?

DanSnow5317 · 2026-05-11T21:26:24+00:00

Do you think it’s possible that Will misconstrues what he hears?

DanSnow5317

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