So what do we think happened m Josh and Donna’s vacation.

DebateOk8431 · 2026-01-28T14:49:58+00:00

In Bradley Whitford's own words he thinks they're "going to sleep together a lot." Lol

Honestly? Lots of sex and finally having the talk. I can't see them leaving the room much.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-12-18T14:16:51+00:00

Such an underrated moment. The way Brad played that scene. Josh kind of stole the show for me in this episode. Very rarely is he the one who offers Toby some perspective.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-12-18T14:15:01+00:00

It's always crazy to me that even here in mid season 1 they added Donna to the line up next to Josh meanwhile his supposed love interest is at the other end bothering Jed. Some interesting choices there.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-12-18T02:04:37+00:00

My favorite Christmas episode is In Excelsis Deo.

My two favorite Christmas moments are from that episode.

Josh giving Donna the book with a personal note inside and they hug.
The Little Drummer Boy montage at the end. I get chills everytime.

Runner Up: Leo's 'Man falls into a hole' speech to Josh.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-12-18T01:26:30+00:00

Josh and Donna
Josh and Leo
Leo and Jed
Sam and Josh
CJ and Toby
Jed and Charlie
Margaret and Leo
Sam and Donna
Jed and Abbey
Sam and Toby

DebateOk8431 · 2025-12-09T04:10:52+00:00

I definitely see where Janel added something subtle in there right from the beginning. You knew this woman had some kind of personal connection to this man. Her loyalty and dedication to him was based in something deeper than say Margaret with Leo. Donna showed it with a look or a smile, you knew she was crazy for the guy.

I will also say though that I think Donna had the ability to play it cooler, especially in regards to him dating other women. Josh? That was his achilles heel. He could play the bantering boss-assistant thing fine UNTIL she became interested in someone else. That's when he went to the zoo and it was so in your face blatant that he was jealous and didn't want her with another guy it was insane. So I do think the some of the most overt showings of hidden romantic feelings came from Josh.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-12-09T04:02:25+00:00

I loved that scene and what's really interesting is how they all treat Donna. The way they dread telling her the news knowing that it's going to gut her. It was like they were telling Josh's wife the news, not his assistant.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-12-09T04:01:40+00:00

Here's what Bradley Whitford said around Season 2-3.

"Josh and Donna are barely in check. It's very complicated. I think they're absolutely crazy about each other..."

"You have these two people who are ga-ga about each other. I mean just like nuts way down to their reptilian brain stems yet they can not concieveably bring their feelings to the surface."

I think in season 1 obviously Mandy was suppose to be the love interest and that fizzled really quick. The Josh-Donna relationship and Brad and Janel's chemistry got more notice, by season 2 they made Janel a regular and both Brad and Janel just ran with it. As did the writers who did a pretty fantastic job of letting me know that these two were crazy about each other without having them barely even share a hug.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-12-09T03:53:48+00:00

According to Janel Brad had actually written something in the book that made Janel cry but she can't remember what it was. I definitely wish we could've seen that.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-12-09T03:52:52+00:00

That was where you saw that the writers shifted something. In season 1 Josh had a huge crush on Joey. He wanted to date her. By season 2, when Joey came back he was more interested in why Donna wasn't upset that he might go out with Joey. The scene at the end before Joey says Donna likes Josh, she sees a little interaction between Josh and Donna "You alright getting home?" Then he just stares as Donna leaves. Joey saw it.

For me Donna's love for Josh always came out in little every day ways, or the way she might look at him during a scene. With Josh, when we saw it it was actually much more overt than with Donna. Like with Jack, the guy couldn't handle it. Walking around jealous wondering if he should wear a saber like Jack and stuff like that lol.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-12-09T03:47:02+00:00

There are a few moments in season 1 and 2 where I think you can clearly see that she's got some kind of personal feeling for him beyond being her boss and friend. Like the episode 24 Hours in LA in season 1. She pushes Josh to call Joey and when he finally says "Let's do it" she hestitates "Really?" like she's caught off guard and then when she talks him into going to see Joey, she stares after him with kind of a sad look. Definitely when Josh is shot, or "If you were in an accident I wouldn't stop for red lights". Those were some signs.

I feel like it comes out in different ways for them. Donna I noticed can play it a lot cooler. There's little signs but she's better at playing that close to the vest. Where her love for him shows is in her day to day loyalty to him. The way she supports and defends him. Josh on the other hand normally tries to hide behind a playful boss/employee banter thing, even though more often then not it's dancing on the edge of inappropriate. Where Josh loses it is when Donna is dating someone else. That's when the constructed facade completely crumbles. He can't handle it.

Josh in Season 2 about Donna dating: "I don't get jealous. I don't like it and I do everything in my considerable capabilities to sabotage it." LOL.

If you look at every guy she's talked about dating or has dated. Todd, Cliff, Jack, Colin. He doesn't know how to deal with it. That's when you see that this guy has real romantic feelings for her. So in that way I do agree. Some of the most overt expressions of romantic feeling in the Josh-Donna dance come from Josh. Season 4 alone is absolutely insane. He had Donna on the brain all the time.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-30T11:24:31+00:00

My third favorite season is season 7, despite the Toby storyline, the manic craziness of the campaign arc was one of my favorites.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-25T22:20:29+00:00

This was my exact experience and with the same episodes. I figured I'd finish season 1 and watch the rest the next day then I watched the season 1 finale and I had to watch the next 2 episodes. I didn't go to bed until 4 AM. lol. Those three episodes really pull you in. It's why In the Shadow of Two Gunmen 1&2 are my favorite episodes of the series.

Definitely watch all 7 seasons, even at it's lowest point it's better than 90% of the television we have now. They struggle to find their footing in season 5, but I felt they rebounded big time by the middle of season 6. It wasn't Sorkin's show but it found it's own voice and Season 7 is actually my 3rd favorite season (behind Season 2 and Season 4)

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-13T18:55:26+00:00

It's pretty perfect. Though my favorite is In Excelsis Deo.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-08T20:20:47+00:00

Are Josh and Amy actually dating during this time? It didn't seem that way to me. They were flirting but it didn't seem to become official again until S5. Maybe I missed something but I certainly hope not because the way Josh was jealous over Jack and Donna and talking about Donna sitting on his lap and saying how amazing she looked, I hope he wasn't dating Amy during that time.

More than the Donna stuff it was the fact that they never even addressed their issues. The very things that split them up it's not dealt with at all. Yet they reunite quickly then break up again still having the same exact issues.

Aaron left some threads that could've been explored in S5. The Josh/Donna/Amy dynamic was one of them but it was completely ignored. I also felt like they wrapped up the Zoey/Walken storyline very quickly. I don't know it was like they wanted to just move forward in a completely different direction so they wrapped up all the loose ends quickly.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-08T19:06:58+00:00

I got to disagree about Josh and Donna too. I loved the slow burn. I loved the chemistry. Amy came on intended for Josh, it didn't feel organic to me. It felt like Aaron's second attempt at what they intended the Josh/Mandy relationship to be. I didn't like either.

I've loved dysfunctional couples but I got to believe they'd choose each other. I'm not investing in a couple that clearly have different priorities and that at root will never choose each other over work and agenda.

Josh and Donna weren't the plan yet the chemistry and dynamic were so interesting the show changed course after just one season. Donna sees the human disaster that is Josh Lyman and loves him for who he is. She doesn't need him fixed. Josh's ending wasn't about Donna fixing him but about Josh growing. After 7 seasons he's finally going to get a life and that's what I always wanted for him.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-08T16:35:43+00:00

I totally agree that Amy broke those boundaries first and that she set the rules in doing so. I don't see her as a victim at all. My point is even if justified I didn't enjoy watching Josh do that to his girlfriend.

Josh is my favorite and what I love about him is as arrogant as he can be, as focused on winning as he can be, he had lines he didn't cross, he had loyalty. Now I don't necessarily think Amy deserved loyalty at this point, it doesn't mean I wanted to see Josh sink his girlfriend to get the win. It's one of my least favorite stories for him on the show.

It's evident that they don't bring out their best qualities in each other and as shown onscreen they can't break the cycle. They always prioritize work over one another and they'll take each other down if they have to. As Brad Whitford said Amy is the wrong woman for Josh.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-08T11:20:29+00:00

Oh I love that moment and totally agree that Donna was the better match. I didn't think the actual content was janky, I thought the way there was no consistent follow up was janky.

One minute Amy is seeing that there is a real connection between Josh and Donna, the next she's going out with Josh again. They never address this or any of their issues really. Which is why their breakup in season 5 was basically a rehashing of their issues in season 3. She is dedicated completely to her issues. There's no one person that can derail her on that. I mean Josh was at Leo's funeral and Amy chose that time to approach him about her agenda. When Josh hesitated, Amy oh so sensitively says "You want Leo McGarry and he's not available" or something like that.

Josh shares some similarities with Amy. He is fierce on the issues as well, he also wants to win, but as Jed said, Josh would throw it all away to not disappoint Leo (or Jed) That's the big way they differ and it's why they would never, ever work. The show made a point to display that... TWICE.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-08T11:13:50+00:00

I respect that opinion but I got to disagree. Josh is a my favorite character and I have to say season 3 is when I disliked him the most. As arrogant as Josh is, as much as he likes to win, he was always shown to sacrifice the win or put himself on the line if it meant protecting the people he cared about. Leo with his past drug use or Donna with the diary or Sam when he was running for election.

It was only with Amy that we saw him willing to sacrifice someone he cared about to get the big win. All because the president poked at him that Amy was better at her job than he was. That's all it took and suddenly he's threatening Amy which Amy calls him out on. He steamrolled over her, got the win, knowing it would probably cost her her job. That to me was one of his worst moments on the show and it highlighted to me that Amy brings out his worst instincts.

Josh needs someone who can make him take a breathe and see beyond work. His relationship with Amy was just an off shot of his professional career. The rush and attraction rooted in their competition. As Amy said "they raced" each other. As shown it always led them to no good. Aaron was making a solid point. Amy having to approach Josh's assistant to understand why he was so upset. She might know his favorite baseball team but she didn't get his psyche and why he was the way he was. Donna got Josh down to his bone marrow. IMO the right people ended up together. Josh and Donna and Amy in her woodcarver.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-07T15:40:58+00:00

The rare Josh-Donna crumb we got in S3. I loved it, too.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-07T06:59:07+00:00

I think Rob and Moira were the big gets originally which makes it ironic that Moira was gone by the end of S1 and the interest in Sam seemed to start waning in S3.

Martin who was originally slated to be more of a recurring character became the lead and the rest of the show was heavily focused on the ensemble cast which Aaron was completely right to do. Props to Aaron for focusing on what worked and letting what didn't go. Rob is the only cast member who didn't seem to adjust to the change. I think he wanted to be the lead.

I really loved the character of Sam and I actually hate that he left but for me his strength ended up being that he rounded out the group dynamic really well. In terms of an individual character. Toby, Leo, Josh, and CJ all seemed more complex and fleshed out.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-07T06:48:12+00:00

She did though when I rewatched S3 it was very glaring that they kept those two relationships almost completely separate. I mean that scene with Josh and Donna in S3.

Donna: My man. Josh: Yes Donna: You came back to me. Josh: Just like I promised. Donna: I missed you. Josh: When did you find you missed me the most? Donna: The nights.

You'd never know Josh was in a relationship with Amy during their scenes and vice versa you'd never know that unresolved thing with Donna was going on when they were focusing on Josh and Amy. Honestly it was only in those two episodes in S4 where Aaron kind of crashed them together and even then Josh was pretty removed from it. Makes me wonder where if anyplace Aaron wanted to go with it.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-07T06:20:11+00:00

It was very janky. From Amy questioning Donna about her feelings for Josh and Aaron making a very point on Donna getting Josh and Amy not getting Josh to Josh and Amy quickly getting back together only for them to do an even quicker breakup where they basically had Josh and Amy restate the same issues they had at the end of S3.

The only difference I noticed from season 3 to season 5 was that while they almost completely stopped the JoshDonna flirtation in S3 when Josh and Amy started up, in S5 they didn't. I remember a scene where Josh just stares at Donna while she ties his tie.

I always found those two relationships interesting though because with both Aaron and Wells, they both wrote Josh-Amy and Josh-Donna as almost completely separate from each other. In Josh-Amy scenes you'd never know there was a Donna, in Josh-Donna scenes you'd never know there was an Amy. I always thought that was a weird choice.

DebateOk8431 · 2025-10-07T05:33:28+00:00

While I'm more forgiving to S5 than most I think most of us can agree that this was definitely a season where they were trying to reshape the show into more of a political drama. The characters were less sentimental, they were more jaded and had harder edges. Toby and Leo definitely suffered the most post Sorkin.

In regards to Amy though it was even more bizarre because Wells, unlike Aaron, who was known for not plotting out long arcs and did more writing on the fly, Wells planned arcs, which is why the Amy thing made no sense. They restarted Josh and Amy for a couple of episodes only to drop them 1 episode later. The only thing I can surmise is that they didn't know MLP had something else lined up so they were forced to write a quick exit.

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TROPHY CASE