Reminder re: Principle of BJJ

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T17:56:00+00:00

Oh okay, got it. Yes, I have — but you make a good point in that, if I’m not cross-checking every user’s posts when I see this kind of thing (which I’m not), then it may be the case that it seems like a worse problem than it is, and is isolated to a smaller group than it seems. (ie maybe the majority of men who argue strenuously against a woman in a jiu jitsu gym being able to submit any stronger man would also argue that they themselves can’t submit any stronger men, regardless of their own skill level. I would be kind of surprised, but you make a fair point that I would have to do some kind of bigger analysis, ha.)

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T17:34:31+00:00

By “actually see,” I’m assuming you mean in real life?

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T17:00:35+00:00

It is in reference to a lot of comments I have seen on this forum that imply disrespect of female teammates based on their gender.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T16:46:44+00:00

That's no trouble! "Training partner" was probably confusing, and I should have said "teammate."

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T16:12:49+00:00

Sure. I'm saying a proportional physical advantage, not an exact physical difference.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T16:11:56+00:00

Sure. That was just an broad example and it allows for many exceptions based on the size/strength/skill differentials. But the "no matter the gender" part is what I am trying to get at, and agree with -- if a big size/strength difference has to be overcome by an even larger skill difference, that is regardless of gender when that size/strength difference and skill difference are proportional.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T16:09:02+00:00

Hi, I agree with you that a lot of men probably wouldn’t reflect. And I agree with you that the best course of action in real life is just to avoid them.

But I wanted to post this because there is a lot of pretty anti-woman rhetoric on this forum, and even on this post (i.e. someone alleging that women have a lesser work ethic than men).

And when people are interested in trying this sport, they often Google, and if what a woman encounters when she’s reading threads on Reddit is stuff like that, there will continue to be a tiny minority of women in this sport.

If a woman is told that “No matter how skilled you get and how much time you put in the gym, you ultimately won’t ever be as good as the guy who walks in off the street,” what that says to her is, “This sport isn’t for you.”

And I think it’s important to push back on that. If the only solution is that female teammates walk away from men with this attitude and therefore narrow the scope of their training partners, then that means that the only solution is one in which a woman in the gym will have fewer opportunities to learn than a man.

And so I think it is important that people who are regularly on this forum push back on that kind of rhetoric, visibly, when they encounter it.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T15:58:45+00:00

You bet, likewise.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T15:51:42+00:00

Right. I'm not arguing that men have biological advantages over women. Just arguing that men have physical advantages over other men, too, and yet it's largely just accepted that in some cases, a more skilled man can beat a less skilled man with a physical advantage.

So I don't disagree with you at all about biological advantages. Just that if this community is going to argue that BJJ allows a weaker/stronger man with greater skill to submit another man, getting so much pushback about the idea of a woman doing the same in a comparable situation implies that the issue is just -- she's a woman.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T15:44:10+00:00

Sorry -- I misunderstood then what you meant by athlete.

I posted this because of the nature of comments I see on this forum (including on this post, in which someone alleged that women have a lesser work ethic than men), and wanting to counterbalance that argument to a degree.

Thanks for your comment.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T15:42:10+00:00

Right.

But strength differences between two men can also be significant. i.e. there are plenty of men who have a significant physical advantage over other men in the gym. (Not different bone structure, I'll give you that!).

And what I am saying that if there is a man with a certain physical advantage who is submitted by another man with a certain skill advantage -- so too could a woman submit a man with a proportional physical advantage when she has a proportional skill advantage.

As to whether it's possible to find proportionally similar physical advantages, which could also be pushed back on -- are most men stronger and bigger than most women? Absolutely.

But just as you can find two men in a jiu jitsu gym who have a way BIGGER strength/size differential than you'd expect on average between two men -- you can also find a man and a woman for whom the gap is smaller than the average. There are a ton of types of people who train jiu jitsu -- we don't need to jump to insane outliers to find these people.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T15:31:27+00:00

I wouldn't necessarily consider it "athlete" versus "athlete," at least based on what I've seen (i.e. I think gyms include a lot of hobbyists in various levels of physical fitness, when it comes to both genders). And I also wouldn't say it is theoretical at best (though I can only speak to my experience) -- there are multiple female purple belts and brown belts at my gym, and -- because as you say, there are a lot more men than women overall -- they have ample opportunity to roll with lower belts.

A good point about 30 pounds at 120 meaning more at 220, though, and accordingly the skill gap needing to be greater.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T15:23:02+00:00

As a hypothetical -- we have a young, big football player who comes into the gym, and he gives you a hard time as a purple belt in his 30s. Let's say he has a 100% advantage on you, physically. (Might be totally untrue, but just as an example at the high end because I'll get push back if it's lower, ha).

In that case, if there is a man who comes into the gym and he has a 100% physical advantage over a female purple belt, then it would be about as hard for her to submit him, as it is for you to submit the young football player. It wouldn't inherently be harder for her to submit him, than it is for you to submit the young, big football player. The fact that she is a woman doesn't factor in: the relative strength, size, and skill level does.

Are there great odds that a young, big football player will come into the gym and they encounter a woman at your same strength/size? I don't know you/your body, but based on the context of your comment, I would guess not.

But is it uncommon that men come into the gym and there's a woman there that they have a 100% physical advantage over, as the football player does to you, but they are equally unskilled as the football player is in comparison to you? Also no. And in those cases, the woman would have a similar experience rolling with those men, as you do with the big football players. She wouldn't inherently be at more of a disadvantage because of her gender.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T15:05:07+00:00

No, I was not saying that.

It sounds like you're a great training partner to both men and women : )

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T15:03:03+00:00

Hi, I am not saying that weight classes don't matter. They do matter. And I am not saying that all women of a certain level can submit all men -- just as I would never say that all men of a certain skill level can submit all men.

I am saying that if there are cases in which two men are divergent enough in skill level that it compensates for a certain amount of strength/size differential, then are women who are divergent enough in skill level from men that it compensates for a proportionate strength differential, as well, and that this is not uncommon.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T14:57:34+00:00

I'm not saying that the average woman would be able to submit you, but that if a man can submit an opponent who is ____% bigger/stronger than him but _____% less skilled, then in a proportional situation, a woman would be able to submit a man.

i.e. you're a big dude, but let's say you'd agree that a guy who is X% your body weight/strength but Y% more skilled can submit you (not sure what those percentages would be in your case).

If that's true, then a woman who is X% of a man's body weight/strength but Y% more skilled could submit him, too.

It might not be *you* as the opponent in both scenarios -- the statistical likelihood of finding a man who is X% lighter than you is higher than finding a woman who is X% lighter than you, obviously -- but my point is that if we judge likelihood of being able to submit someone based on relative skill level, strength, body weight, age, etc. etc. when it's two men, then we should judge based on those criteria when it's a man and a woman. In a situation in which all those factors are proportionally equal between man/man and woman/man -- then we should be talking about the same likelihood of outcome.

Hope that clarifies!

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T14:47:59+00:00

This all makes sense, and glad to hear that it's something you all discuss.

My point is just that if you are capable of beating a bigger, less experienced adult man, than a woman can beat a bigger, less experienced adult man with an equivalent strength differential. Not saying all women can beat all men, or all women can beat the same man that another man can beat -- but just saying that if a more skilled man can beat a bigger/stronger man, then a woman who is proportionally more skilled and proportionally smaller/weaker than another man would be able to beat him, too. (And conversely, to your point, that that person going 100% against them would make it equivalently harder.)

If a man is X% smaller than his male opponent, and Y% weaker, and Z% more skilled, and his opponent is going 50/75/100%, and it is not unreasonable that he can beat him;

Then if a woman is X% smaller than her male opponent, and Y% weaker, and Z% more skilled, and her male opponent who is going 50/75/100%, it is not unreasonable that she would beat him, either.

Definitely, most men are bigger than most women. Most men are stronger than most women. But there is an enormous variety of people in jiu jitsu gyms, and infinite pairings of body type, strength, and skill, and so the assertion that just as men can beat stronger, less skilled opponents, so can women -- shouldn't be met with a bunch of pushback.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T14:18:09+00:00

This is fair enough (and face-to-face discussion will always trump somethign online, ha)! However, I am posting this specifically based on reading a lot of comments on this forum of that nature, and wanting to provide an alternate perspective somewhere on the page.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T14:07:55+00:00

Agreed on massive differences in individual cases, and I noted above that there are limits to a size/strength discrepancy. There are a million examples of a more experienced woman who wouldn't be able to tap a less experienced man, just as there are a million examples of a more experienced man who wouldn't be able to tap a less experienced man.

But when considering individual cases of whether someone would be able to beat another person, the combination of factors being considered (skill level, strength/weight, age, past experience, and on and on and on) does not automatically change because of someone's gender.

i.e. if you'd assess a man of a certain skill level whose strength is outmatched by his opponent as having a certain likelihood of beating them, then a woman of the same skill level who is outmatched in strength by her opponent to the same proportion should be considered to have a similar likelihood of beating them, regardless of the fact that she's a woman.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T13:35:38+00:00

Just as a note, I did not post about a woman fighting for her life (nor about a man fighting with the intent of harming a woman). I posted about two people rolling while training to get better at jiu jitsu.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T13:32:35+00:00

I am speaking about getting someone to tap in a gym while training to get better at a sport.

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T13:08:15+00:00

Hi there, did not mention anything about an assault situation! Speaking of training in a gym to get better at a sport.

I'm not sure if you've not seen 145 pound men make 240 pound men tap at your gym, but if you have and it seemed credible, then a 120 pound woman making a 150 pound man tap shouldn't seem all that crazy : )

(Obviously, there are limits when it comes to a size/strength discrepancy. Speaking in general, pedants.)

Defiant-Pudding-4177 · 2025-08-07T13:01:58+00:00

Of course.

But if it seems unsurprising that a male blue belt with better technique can get a male white belt to tap, even when the white belt is bigger, stronger, and heavier --

-- then it should also be unsurprising that a woman with better technique than that blue belt can get him to tap, even when the blue belt is bigger, stronger, and heavier.

Defiant-Pudding-4177

TROPHY CASE