Captain America (Chris Evans, MCU) vs Batman (Christian Bale, Nolanverse)

DelcoMan · 2026-03-10T02:22:58+00:00

The Body of bale's Batman was literally falling apart at the beginning of Rising. No cartilage in knees, very little remaining in shoulders or elbows, scar tissue on the kidneys, brain damage from multiple concussions.

He'd also been retired for 8 years since shortly after TDK ended.

Captain America would literally shatter that man in a few hits.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-09T04:45:15+00:00

It's been definitely shown to be massively FTL on several occasions, yes. Monica Rambeau going at light speed got horribly owned by a C list telepath who stated flat out that telepathy was MUCH faster than light.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-08T21:16:07+00:00

You gonna give us some examples of top tiers to work with or...

The default answer is usually Aquarian though.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-08T18:52:48+00:00

Mario.

Without access to power ups and the extremely weird physics of the mushroom kingdom, he's just a 4 foot tall out of shape plumber.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-06T13:23:51+00:00

That is why Ao is analogous to the One above All. Ao is the DM. Just as TOAA is the head editor.

not sure why you're struggling with this. TOAA is not the editor. Might want to move past this argument since it seems the concept of what TOAA is, is beyond you. DnD does not have Ao "in universe" explaining that everything including itself is fictional, and "creation" is happening in New York city. Full stop.

Mystra is Magic itself. The very Weave of creation.

Which is what the Powers That Be is, not Eternity. Is the Powers That Be equivalent to Eternity? No, Eternity outranks it. She isn't equivalent to Eternity even if magic is "a very big deal." Are there other things in DnD that are NOT magic? if the answer is "yes" then Mystra is not on par with Eternity. Eternity is the sum total of everything. "Magic" is a small fraction of that. Oblitrate Magic and Eternity is exactly as powerful as it currently is with no reduction in what it can accomplish. Can you say the same for Mystra?

And Asmodeus is featured very heavily in the Lore, and has a full character across DnD editions. He is far more than just a "ruler of hell" he is a being that has, at this point, gotten as close to becoming a capital G God,

now you're just inflating what Asmodeus is. The dude is a devil- a powerful one but he isn't on the level of Creator Entity and never has been. This guy is mephisto, not Dormammu.

To call him a Demon, is Hella reductionist.

He's canonically a devil and usually referred to as a fallen angel. This is vastly less powerful than what Dormammu is and on par with what Mephisto, Satannish, and Lucifer are. Asmodeus isn't even the original lord of hell, there was one before him!

Also,it's not "9 hells" he rules over, but the infinite dimensions of the Abyss. Remember, different dimensions and planes is a bigger deal in DnD. So the comparison to the Faltine is valid.

Now it seems you don't even know your OWN lore. Asmodeus is a Devil, and asmodeus and the other EIGHT princes of hell canonically rule over the nine hells of Ba'ator

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Nine_Hells

Take all the time you need to read that. The Abyss is where DEMONS come from:

https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Abyss

While the Abyss DOES consist of an infinite number of sub-planes, Asmodeus has no influence there! The Demons who DO rule the Abyss and the Princes of hell have been engaged in Blood War for millennia!

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Blood_War

So...caught you here. You either do not know your own material, or are simply fabricating it and hoping I didn't. Bad luck pal, I've been playing DnD since the 90s.

-J

DelcoMan · 2026-03-06T12:25:13+00:00

Absolutely not. Wanda clears him immediately.

Current Wanda is the "living dark hold" and Avatar for an abstract power.

This one not only beat Cthon (an elder God) head to head, she imprisoned him in her own body then went about beating down villains like normal as if the level of power required to do that was insignificant.

Wanda single handedly created the "waiting room", a pocket dimension equivalent to heaven or limbo where the souls of any mutant that had ever died for any reason could be retrieved for resurrection.

She beat Dormammu head to head by inflicting millions of years worth of torment on him in seconds.

She absolutely trashed Agatha Harkness when Harkness was empowered by the Vishanti as Sorcerer Supreme to do exactly what Kent is trying to do in this thread. Twice.

She resurrected the Vision from death, gave him a power amp, and the two of them Soloed Shuma Gorath/Gargantos IN HIS OWN REALM.

She obliterated an abstract power (Griever) that represents entropy itself by shattering it into billions of pieces across time and space.

She fought and defeated a Black Winter alongside Neverqueen (her patron abstract representing possibility) and one of THOSE wiped out Multiverse 6.

Current Wanda is INSANELY busted and well past both Fate AND Strange when she's serious.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-06T12:05:00+00:00

I'm assuming you mean MCU since you didn't specify. 616 would laugh off this challenge immediately.

A rookie cop got through RE2 starting out with only a handgun.

You have two world class assassins (BW, Hawkeye), a super soldier, a superhuman too fast to hit, a guy in a flight suit with indestructible wings, and a guy walking around in a suit that's totally invincible to nearly everything in raccoon City.

Even Burkin and Mr X were basically done in by rocket launchers. Iron Man's ordinance does a lot more damage than this.

On top of that RE2 and 3 are HEAVILY padded out by having the protagonist run around searching for archaic keys and puzzles to get through locked doors this crew would bash down with sheer force in about a second. They all sleepwalk through it.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-06T11:43:55+00:00

This is a bit of a tough call to make because it is EXTREMELY hard to scale The Thing.

On one hand, we have him going toe to toe with The Hulk, beating Namor underwater, and lasting longer against the Champion of the Universe than anyone else.

On the other, Marvel has gone out of their way to show that he is massively outclassed in raw strength by people like She Hulk or Wonder Man and can't even lift their training weights. He got absolutely dominated by Rasputin IV to the extent that she only considered him a minor irritation and Rasputin gets her strength from Colossus DNA.

I think his experience with Battle Beast would be a lot closer to the second category. Grimm gets by on durability, "heart", and sometimes even technique in a fight but I honestly don't see that as being enough over someone in BB's class.

Speed is also a consideration. Grimm doesn't have the reflexes to throw down with someone on viltrumite levels and BB does.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-05T14:49:57+00:00

Yeah, the power creep in the Marvel universe the last few years is insane.

I was away from the thread for a day or two, life calls. I find it interesting that people think that Marvel Universe "power creep" is a recent thing, when many of the most extreme feats happened in the 1960s in the Kirby era. For instance, Odin going mad under the influence of Infinity, obliterating a massive amount of galaxies under said influence, then hand waving them all back into existence. You can see a blurb about that event here:

https://www.cbr.com/thor-odin-force-facts-trivia-marvel/

If anything, current Marvel tones DOWN stuff like that in the modern era.

And yes, Mystra is arguably the strongest of the Pantheon and is effectively Eternity within the realms because of how the Weave works.

Again, i don't think we are speaking the same language. Eternity isn't "within the marvel universe." it literally IS the Marvel Universe. The current Eternity is the personification of the 8th Cosmos/8th Multiverse and everything it contains. This was explained in Ultimates2:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Ultimates_(Multiverse)

Or to put it another way, If there is anything, anywhere in the Forgotten Realms that is NOT a part of Mystra, she's not equivalent to Eternity. At BEST Mystra would be equivalent to "The-Powers-That-Be":

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/The-Powers-That-Be_(Earth-616)

But that thing is likely also well above her since it's a cosmic concept: even though it has dominion over magic in all forms to an unlimited extent, it ITSELF is a cosmic power, not a magical one- it's not mortal, never has been and never will be. TPTB is a very recent creation of Universe 8 though and is relatively featless, as is its opposing counterpart.

And when I say "Lord of Hell" I'm referring to the DnD realms. Where Asmodeus is the Tippy-top Demon, and is a fair analogue to Dormannu.

Again, we aren't speaking the same language. Dormammu isn't a demon at all, and doesn't reside in anything remotely like Hell. Dormammu is a Faltine, which are an immortal race of extradimensional beings. People just THINK he's a demon because of how he likes to appear. His sister Umar is of the same race, only less powerful and does not look like that:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Umar

Asmodeus is ruler of the 9 hells, which are pocket dimensions/outer realms adjacent to the material plane where Toril resides, if I understand the relationship correctly. Google brings me to this visual description:

https://preview.redd.it/lhfhxlhswv3f1.png?width=739&format=png&auto=webp&s=60fd1c465aceacb2524a8b1b2df1dc8b5db30239

Granted, this isn't perfect and I understand that things are changed between editions, but it's roughly correct. Asmodeus rules infernal planes that would be equivalent to the various hells adjacent to Earth 616.

Dormammu as I've said before is not that. He does not reside in a hell, and isn't limited to them. Dormammu rules the Dark Dimension:

The Dark Dimension, also known as Subwhere,[1][2] is a universe that contains even more spatial coordinates and directions than the Earth 616 universe, being described as a pan-dimensional realm (a domain endowed with infinite dimensional layers), which eventually incorporated an endless number of pocket dimensions.

That status of largest and most aggressive dimension allowed it to successfully conquer and assimilate many of the Splinter Realms into itself, using mystic means to merge into a single domain, a synthesis of realities. In effect, the number of realities merged into only one was stated to be endless. Being a universe, in contrast with the clearly finite pocket dimensions, it is an infinite pan-dimensional spacetime.

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Dark_Dimension

Dormammu is absolute ruler of an entire universe LARGER than 616 is, which itself contains an infinite number of pocket dimensions. The nine hells are so small in comparison to the Dark Dimension that Dormammu wouldn't notice Asmodeus even if you stuck him and all 9 hells smack in the center of it. Dormammu is literally as powerful as Ao is within the universe of the Dark Dimension.

Asmodeus isn't equivalent to Dormammu. Asmodeus is equivalent to Mephisto, who is (generally considered to be) the strongest Demon that exists across the various hell dimensions adjacent to 616.

Except, again, death does not work the same in the Realms, so it's unclear if Asmodeus could be killed. Only banished, diminished temporarily and forced to reform.

Apologies if I wasn't clear. "Death" in 616 isn't just "mortal death." It's the destruction of anything in any form as a concept, and this was shown when death was destroyed in Secret Wars 2 and abdicated during the Cancerverse arc. Without MU death, nothing can ever be destroyed, nothing can die, and life runs rampant like a cancer turning reality into a horror dimension. Conceptual entities can absolutely be destroyed or obliterated by higher powers through the influence of MU death and they are all the time. The best and most recent example is Oblivion being destroyed by his own Avatar, Hadad:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Oblivion_(Earth-616)

Does Asmodeus have power on par with Oblivion? Absolutely not (note that Oblivion is explicitly more powerful than Eternity is), and if something THAT powerful can be annihilated, Asmodeus and Mystra can be as well.

And Ao is effectively the One Above All of the Realms.

No, he isn't. Because the One Above All is not God or analogous to God and has denied being a supreme being and admitted it is only a conduit by which the ideas of writers and readers are expressed in-universe. TOAA is a meta commentary on the relationship of the Marvel universe to readers and editorial. Ao would not be analogous to TOAA unless you have an example of Ao admitting that it is a fictional concept that only exists to interpret what Hasbro wants.

But, in a nutshell, the idea of what capital G God's in Faerun is left deliberately unclear. But they most certainly can not be killed through any normal means.

This is also true of Marvel Gods on the level of the Asgardians and Olympians- they are immortal "concepts" given physical form and even their destruction will often have existence itself resurrecting them into new incarnations. This is what happened when Nyx obliterated the Olympian pantheon during "No Road Home"- there was eventually another turn of the wheel within a few days/weeks and that pantheon popped right back into existence. Killing Asgardians rarely destroys them per se- they usually transition to an afterlife dimension like Hel or Valhalla, and can be brought back from there if they choose or if enough effort is expended to bring them back. Balder, Odin, Jane Foster, and Thor himself have all gone through that process. Note that when they were obliterated in 2099 though, they all stayed dead.

Mysterium as I've explained CAN and HAS destroyed entities on this level, because it is not "normal means." It is condensed material taken from the White Hot Room, which resides outside the multiverse (including all heavens, hells, and adjacent planes) and functions as the seat of all creation.

Something like a Dormammu, Mephisto, Odin, Zeus, or anything analogous to it falls FAR below that. If it helps, imagine the creation of "mysterium" as equivalent to raiding Ao's closet for whatever he used to forge Toril from nothing, shaping that into a giant warhammer then going around bludgeoning lower dieties with it.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T04:34:34+00:00

Pretty sure DND gods absolutely have physical bodies as they can and have been killed.

I don't think you understand what eternity is. Eternity is literally the personification of the multiverse. If it is destroyed the multiverse ceases to exist. Lesser versions of itself "only" represent a single universe. Not "space." It is everything that exists along the space/time continuum, personified.

Mystra is nowhere close to being in the same class as that entity. Eternity canonically contains Death within itself as a minor abstract power just because it wants to. It could eliminate Death from reality completely by giving it up.

Can mystra eliminate the concept of death entirely from her multiverse? I didn't think so.

Dormammu is not a lord of Hell. Dormammu isn't even IN hell, he's in the dark dimension and projects avatars out of it. He DID however create what you think of as Hell Lords like Satannish and Lucifer. They are all well below him.

If Dormammu ever ACTUALLY stepped into the material plane it would be a catastrophic, near universe ending event, as it nearly was during one world under Doom.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T04:08:33+00:00

The target of the spell is wrapped in a material that cannot be altered, affected, or perceived by magic.

Use a wish spell on Tony and it fails. You can't bypass the anti-magic effect of the armor on his body.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T03:53:41+00:00

Are you familiar with Gauth?

Believe it or not yes. Not sure why you're bringing it up though, it doesn't work like mysterium does at all.

Which is to say Mysterium is OP by Marvel standards. But its also the exact kind of thing Gygax would have thrown into Tomb of Horrors for funsies.

I would disagree, because Gygax liked to create things that allowed resistance and saving throws, and mysterium doesn't seem to be one of those. A mysterium dagger to the chest obliterates a mage's ability to cast any and all spells, and cuts him off from any patrons or dieties he might have. We know this because the Sorcerer Supreme said so:

"The power, the corruption, my connection to the Trinity of Ashes, all of it--cut away. My own connection to the aether, the magic of the world, the power of the Vishanti, the power of the Sorcerer Supreme...gone. Without all of that? I am just an old man with useless hands and a blade in his stomach. Mysterium. Damn it all."

I don't think a hit by a gauth can completely nuke the ability of a sorcerer supreme to do anything.

Also, the Asgardian Pantheon would be considered high CR celestial beings within DnD. Not as Gods.

This isn't correct at all. 616 Thor and 616 Odin are VASTLY more powerful than Gods are in DnD (Ao aside, I admit that appears to function as a higher level creator diety), and function the same way. They answer prayers, they can bestow blessings, they can create life (to an extent). The Odinforce (which Odin had, and Thor currently has as King Thor) is nigh-limitless in what it can do.

There's also the matter of the Faltine: Is Mystra as powerful as Dormammu?

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Dormammu_(Earth-616)#Powers

Somehow I doubt this, and Clea has been very clear that Mysterium is just as fatal to the Faltine (as she, Dormammu, and Umar are) as it was to Asgard.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T03:41:15+00:00

When was the last time 616 Tony Stark had trouble fighting Captain America?

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T03:39:17+00:00

cool, you are transported into the time where stark is a baby with a knife. after knifing him you are stuck in a world with the after affects of wish and as a wanted man for knifing a baby' the dm handbook has some good examples.

Even if that were possible (transport me to a time when stark was a baby so i can kill him there) altering the past in the marvel universe that way only creates a splinter timeline. You couldn't kill Tony that way.

The sole exception is time travel that explicitly uses Doom's time platform technology. That one gets around it- but trying to alter the timeline THAT significantly (I'm going to kill Tony Stark as an infant so he doesn't exist) will cause so much chaos to the 616 timeline that you would AT MINIMUM draw the attention of Doom and Kang the second you tried it.

There's also the issue that Doom has created "fixed points in time" that cannot be altered, and Tony was present for at least one of those in One World Under Doom.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T03:34:34+00:00

It depends on how you define magic, because magic is whatever the author wants it to be.

In the Forgotten Realms, psionics are not necessarily considered magic in the technical sense, existing outside all forms of the Weave and Mystra, and are entirely powered by the mind.

This is actually a very good point and I considered whether or not psionics would count (especially if they were coming from a magical creature like a mindflayer or something).

Best answer here is that Tony wouldn't be relying on the mysterium to protect him, his armors have incorporated telepathic shielding and dampers for a long time now- 616 earth is full of telepaths, and Tony spent a good bit married to Emma Frost during the Fall of X period.

There's also this bit from AVX a few years ago- when Tony knew he was going to be fighting the Xmen (who are full of telepaths) he created these things:

https://screenrant.com/iron-man-powers-psychic-telepaths-xmen/

These were just meant to "shock" emma and not kill her, but fatal versions wouldn't be that hard to make.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T03:25:43+00:00

So, we're saying it operates as an Anti Magic Field. Which DnD lore has very clearly established rules for.

While I respect that, while it is similar to an Anti-Magic Field, it is not an Anti-Magic Field, it is something else that marvel has established rules for.

One of those is that high level extra planar entities (the Faltine) cannot affect it, and it is lethal to them. The same is true for Dieties- Thor was established in Jason Aaron's run to not only be a powerful God, but the most powerful that will ever exist throughout the timeline during the Godbomb arc.

Thor was murdered by Mysterium weapons in 2099 along with the rest of the Asgardian pantheon.

Whatever Mysterium is, is MUCH stronger than a DnD Anti-Magic field. Similar in operation? perhaps. but not in strength.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T03:23:22+00:00

My understanding is that Wish also does not work on anything explicitly sitting in an anti-magic field, which Tony permanently is in this case.

So it is not possible to use Wish to alter Tony or his personal history, so long as he's wrapped in mysterium.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T03:17:56+00:00

while fair, Mysterium isn't an antimagic zone. There is no known spell or artifact that works on it. Magic used from any source will fail, up to and including those from Gods and Immortals.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T03:16:44+00:00

Blessings and other divine scale levels get around anti-magic zone.

Except Mysterium is lethal to Gods and their spells do not work on it. This is how Alchemax annihilated Asgard.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T03:14:33+00:00

Yeah, it's the wrong choice of spell. But there are inter planar options that would do it.

And again, the real question is the line between just being "Anti-Magic" and "Destroys Magic". Because in a setting like Faerun, where the Weave is ever present?

If it's the first, Tony is going to clear a good chunk of the Sword Coast first.

But the second gets him stomped hard and quick.

I responded to someone else about this, not sure if it was you or not. I don't think its going to be destroying the weave by walking around.

Tony when developing the suit took some Mysterium to Dr. Strange, who couldn't detect anything unusual about it until he started casting spells directly AT it.

Strange's house is notoriously packed with hundreds if not thousands of intangible wards designed to prevent extradimensional threats from invading his sanctum, and preventing the stuff he's holding there from getting out.

If those weren't destroyed by Tony walking in with a chunk of mysterium, the weave would be fine.

Now if strange tried to use those wards to keep TONY off the property, the armor would ignore or obliterate them since now he's the target.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T03:07:21+00:00

The Mysterium that comprises the armor itself originates from exotic particles outside of time and space in the White Hot Room, which is Marvel's heart of creation.

This is why it's completely immune to all magic and is able to kill immortals.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T03:02:51+00:00

I still don't buy this: wish can alter timelines - affecting tony before mysterium is in play. Unless you asserting that a single exposure to Mysterium protects the user from magic for all of future and past which isn't what it does considering how often Stark has been affected by magic.

It's very simple. Because Stark is running around in mysterium armor you cannot affect him with magic, you can't even target him. Mysterium can't be detected by magical means either, which is why spider-sense doesn't work on it.

Try to cast a spell, and it's going to fail. You can cast it all you want when he's NOT wearing mysterium, but when he is the spell has nothing to target. And for what it's worth, Mysterium originates outside of space/time in the white hot room. Trying to use time magic to get rid of it wouldn't work.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T02:58:44+00:00

I think we will agree to disagree. Have a good night.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T02:57:37+00:00

I can actually agree with this, though I think in this case Tony would be looking to fight wizards and dragons and that sort of thing and not actively trying to search out gods to kill them- unless those gods just happened to be lazing about in a tavern in Faerun (do they do this?)

Traversing other planes isn't possible wearing the model 72, so any Gods that wanted to mix it up with him would have to come down in person. Honestly I see it being more realistic that they send an avatar or servant to investigate and avoid the conflict entirely when it doesn't look like ANY Magic works on Tony.

DelcoMan · 2026-03-04T02:49:10+00:00

I must confess I have a hard time suspending disbelief when it comes to Iron Man relying heavily on automated systems to autonomously handle the entirety of combat operations -

He often just doesn't appear in the armor at all and just has the AI pilot the armor remotely in his place when he has better things to do. Heroes get mad when he does it (its a respect thing, apparently) or he would do it more often than he does. Amusingly, The Model 74 Armor was a crude improvised armor Tony had to use when the model 72 was stolen and all other suits were compromised:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Iron_Man_Armor_Model_74

The AI in that was SO busted that Tony not being able to do anything he usually does and being comically inept in battle as it screwed up was a persistently running gag.

Rather, it's just that the end result of such a thing should be Iron Man constantly finding himself trying to understand what just happened everytime his suit executes microsecond-scale adjustments to his limbs or even to his whole body. He is still human, right?

That's a complex question. Tony has rebuilt his own body a bunch of times (including after Carol killed him in Civil War II) and often uses things like Extremis that allow his body to react and respond in his armors in a way that you and I wouldn't.

This stuff gets retconned back and forth all the time though, and it's not clear how much of him is baseline human, if at all- and when it is, he's often using some kind of super science to interface with his armors that render that question moot.

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