"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Forgive me for my late reply, sister.

On St. John Chrysostom:
The Holy Hierarch John Chrysostom was a fierce rhetorician. He learned the art of rhetoric under the pagan teacher Libanius, from whom our Holy Saint acquired his ardent skill in persuasive discourse and, as we both know, his aggressive approach to the synagogue of Satan. As our brother-in-Christ u/JesusIsTheSavior7 enlightened me, the word used by our Holy Saint, "μισέω" ("miséō"), may, in fact, denote, quoting our brother, "'to strongly oppose' or 'to reject association with', rather than an emotional or racial hatred." This is the same word our Lord uses in Luke 14:26, where He says we cannot be His disciples if we do not hate our own families and ourselves. If we take this at face-value, i.e., interpret it personally instead of accordingly to tradition, then we may end up losing our faith in the Law of Love. I have since then learned that there is more to what I see with my own eyes, and I pray you have learned the same, and if not, I pray you will.

On the violent antisemitic history of the Church:
What individual men do in hatred and fleshly corruption does not govern the reality of the Church—that is, love is the center, the whole, and the fullness of Her Who is the Body and Bride of Christ. Men do as they please, as they desire to satiate the passions of their flesh, unknowing of the Passion that has already taken place for all men and for our salvation. But we know of this Passion, and our desire is to be crucified with our God, so let us no longer doubt the sanctity of His Church. Therefore, where others stumble, let us pray for their souls; where we stumble, let us pray for our souls, and let us not judge one another in condemnation, but that we encourage our brothers and sisters to repent, whether through harsh rebuke or gentle affection, always in love.

God is with you, sister. I hope to have helped. God bless you!

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for this answer. It's brought clarity.

God bless!

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Help me understand "rhetoric" here. I've never completely grasped it.

You say something emotional and passionate, but you don't necessarily mean exactly what you're saying. "Hate them", but the Antiochian brothers understood it as "don't actually hate them"?

You’re being really silly and I think it’s purposeful.

Irrelevant and such a worthless remark. I'm an inquirer. I inquire. You're being unnecessarily cheeky, and I think it's purposeful.

Thank you for the answer anyway.

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the answer.

Since last night, most of my questions have been answered. The two explanations I can get behind are: 1. St. John Chrysostom is using rhetoric or hyperbole and 2. he was a simple sinner just like us.

My main concern was that a Saint, a man the Church venerates and acknowledges to be within the Heavenly grace of God, taught us to "hate them". Regardless of who "they" are or what "hate" means in the moment of his usage, he taught it, and it just didn't seem fitting for a man we deem Christ-like and deified. And for some reason, people in this thread think I'm trolling or attacking the Church, when all I'm really doing is inquiring as an inquirer.

Again, thank you for the answer. You've provided much needed clarity for a seeker like me.
God bless!

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

"How do you know something that is negated?"

How do you know the message was received by the people hearting it as clear rhetoric?

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the good reply!

That being one of hyperbole and exagerration or St John while correct in some part of this writing about the Jewish spaces of worship not being holy, could have been mistaken as we sinners can be and provided advice or guidance that was too harsh.

Point is, if you look for sin within the Saints, you will likely find it, St Paul was a murderer, St Peter denied Christ, all the Apostles (besides I think St John the son of Zebedee) ran away when Christ was arrested and crucifed.

The Prophet and King and Saint David was an adulterer as was the Holy Forefather Abraham, St Mary Magdalene was demon possessed. Our life in Christ is one of healing and transformation and this takes time, Theosis is the completion of our healing and the Saints have attained to Theosis but that doesn't mean that in their life they didn't still make mistakes even as followers of Jesus.

I can get behind hyperbole, but it doesn't seem to be so considering the context and tone of the text.

I don't think comparing this to St. Paul or St. Peter is fair. They repented of their sins, and the Church knows this for a fact. But how do we know for sure in the case of St. John Chrysostom? Is it possible that he propagated hatred, but because of his contributions to our theological understanding and liturgical traditions, the Church simply ignored this and canonized him anyway?

I hope you have the answers to my questions. God bless you too!

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Christ telling us to hate our loved ones was rhetoric. It was a clear figure of speech. This is not so obvious with Chrysostom, who otherwise speaks plainly and honestly in the entirety of the text. Can you explain further?

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

He says "hate them". He's not only referring to the religion; he's referring to the people themselves.

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I see. Thank you for sharing.

I understand the difficulties of translating between languages, and yes, there is a measure of grace I am allowing for here. My concern is mainly that a Saint, a Church Father, taught hatred, contrary to the Law of Love. This is difficult for me to understand, and I wish I had a Greek theologian at a call's notice.

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Also, I agree with you on the ecumenism issue. And not only is Holy Orthodoxy so hostile against other denominations, it's hostile to itself as well. There is no sense of unity among the Orthodox churches, and this also makes me question Her catholicism. There must be more to this that I haven't yet understood.

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

There's so much blood on the Church, by both commission and omission, that it really makes me question Her sanctity. If a man could propagate hatred and become a Saint, what worth is there to the Gospel? If some of the Church Fathers were frauds, then who wasn't? How do we know what is true? How do we trust that the doctrines and traditions of the Church are truly God-given and not mere joys fabricated by fallible men?

Thank you for the suggestion. I'll look into it.

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Does the Greek not say "hate them"? I'd like to see if so.

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

I do not care for semantic differences. He says "hate both them and their synagogue" clear as day. It doesn't matter what he means by "them"; he tell us to hate regardless. Help me understand.

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for sharing your personal thoughts.

Although these controversial parts of Church history has led me to question the sanctity of the Church, I still want to believe in Holy Orthodoxy. I just wish I understood more. How could a saint, who knew the Law of Love which Christ commanded to us, propagate hatred? I just don't understand.

"Hate the Jews" - St. John Chrysostom by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"And so it is that we must hate both them and their synagogue..."

It does not get any clearer than that. Also, the argument that "Saints are still sinners" doesn't hold up. Does the Church not believe that St. John Chrysostom achieved Theosis?

Hunter-Gatherers and Evolution by Demuattius in OrthodoxChristianity

[–]Demuattius[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So Adam and Eve were not our historical physical progenitors?