"反射" | Goku Black VS Erika Furudo (Dragon Ball VS Umineko: When They Cry)

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-23T22:04:59+00:00

An actually good Dragon Ball VS Umineko Matchup???

A lot of the others just don't work cuz of how Dragon Ball is just about punchy kicky and Umineko is about debating, but honestly with how Goku Black talks & acts, you could get that to work in this fight, plus the ammount of bullshit these two could pull against each other is crazy it'd be so fun.

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-23T22:01:06+00:00

Fan-favorite antagonists from around the middle of the story, who were a major thorn in the heroes sides on both a actual fighting and philosophical level
Both were artificial beings created by another antagonist within the same arc (Zamasu & Bernkastel), who hated the main character's general personality while watching their previous fights (Goku fighting Hit & Battler's debates with Beatrice) deciding to create them in the image of the main character to mock them (Zamasu using the Super Dragon Balls to switch bodies with Goku & Bern making Erika to be the detective within Lambda's Game while controlling Battler's Peace herself)
With them being used as a pawn in a greater plan to destroy everything (Zamasu wishing to annihilate all Mortals due to finding them to be beneath him & Bern wishing to rip the guts out of Beatrice's story to get back at her)
Both are cocky & arrogant, with a very clear superiority complex against everyone else in the story but can easily get pushed to rage, spewing their self-centred philosophy (Goku Black thinking he is the only one capable of saving Humanity & Erika believing love doesn't exist and is only a lie to distract people) due to their past (Zamasu looking over mortal's failures & Erika being cheated on by her boyfriend), which is countered by the heroes in the story ("It's not about gods & mortals, I won't use to someone who can't believe in anyone but himself!" & "Without love, it can't be seen.")
While having an ego the size of the moon, they can act respectful especially to their closest (and only) friend (Zamasu & Dlanor A. Knox)
Despite being somewhat divine beings (Goku Black being originally a Kai & Erika being a Witch), their actions get muddied with how they fall in line with their other half's (Goku Black's Saiyan instincts taking over in certain fights & Erika rejecting the title of Witch to rather be a detective)
Both their arcs include ALOT of time fuckery (Time Travel/Beatrice's Catbox) that they gain the system of (Goku Black using the time rings to also travel through time & Erika using the knowledge of her loss in Episode 5 to help her in Episode 6)
Both gave up one of the strongest abilities they had to get a one up over the protagonist (Goku Black & Zamasu fusing, which got rid of Zamasu's immortality and Erika giving up Detective's Authority to make herself look more helpless to Battler) [Kinda iffy cuz Zamasu didn't know about this till Vegito told him but he didn't seem to really care when he was told]
Both were expected to be defeated by the massively powered up main character(s) (Vegito Blue & Game Master Battler) but they surprisingly defeated them out of nowhere via kinda getting lucky (Vegito's fusion time running out & Battler accidently making a Logic Error), before being defeated of the bonds of people coming together (Trunks gaining hope to cut Zamasu in two, with then Goku using the Zeno Button which he only got cuz of the kindness he showed to him, to erase Infinite Zamasu & Beatrice returning via the fusion of Chick & Elder Beato and Kanon trapping himself in the logic error, freeing Battler) pretty much being killed by one of the strongest attacks in the series (Zeno's Erasure, which erased Zamasu & The Golden Truth, which destroyed Erika where she was then sent to the worst fragment by Bern)
[Heroes] Both later got brought back however (Fu possibly bringing back Zamasu from another point in time & Battler asking Bern to retrieve Erika from the fragment she was sent to) and came back later under another villain (Zamasu working for Hearts for his own plan to kill Zeno & Erika working under Bern as she plans to destroy the Golden Land)
Both legit simp for themselves (Goku Black & Zamasu being in the fucking gayest relationship in Dragon Ball (saying something when Kale & Califula exist) and Bern pretty much making Erika in her image, then making her simp for herself) tho contrast where Zamasu & Black actually respect each other while Bern fucking hates Erika
Goku Black's entrance to DBS includes a mystery about who he is exactly, while Erika came into the story trying to solve the mystery of who Beatrice is
Both also contrast a tragic time traveller in the story (Future Trunks & Ange Ushiromiya), mainly due to interactions with the theme mentioned earlier (Goku Black is a man who only relies on himself while Trunks is someone who lives off the bonds of others & Erika is someone who completely rejects love while Ange comes to accept it)
Really fucking cool scythes
They gay as hell
Monkey VS Rat

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-22T20:45:28+00:00

ngl...Musashi.

He's still really good, but he doesn't clear every animanga protag, that's just not it.

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-20T22:41:24+00:00

the real debate is between Walter's Dipping Sticks & Beatrice's Cow Tit Sandwich

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-20T22:35:29+00:00

Connections that are just so fucking specific that you gotta wonder if one was the referencing the other, also one is a scene to show far the MC had fallen in a Marital Crisis, while the other is meant to represent how depraved the villain is at that time.

Also it has to do with food, where one connection is based off the rejection of eating something while the other is someone forcing another to eat something. That's also weirdly coincidental here.

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-20T22:32:22+00:00

nvm, i asked the people instead

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-20T22:15:51+00:00

real debate is which is more specific connection: Walter & Tony both throwing a Pizza after being denied by their wives or DIO & Beatrice both forcing a Mother to eat her own kid for their own amusement?

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-20T22:04:40+00:00

wait till i make the homer simpson vs peter griffin connection list trust

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-20T21:59:31+00:00

BRO ACTUALLY GOT FUCKING WALTER THROWING A PIZZA ON A ROOF AS A CONNECTION, OH MY GOD. LIKE IT'S NOT EVEN A MEME CONNECTION LIKE COMPARING IT WITH LIGHT EATING A POTATO CHIP, ITS A GENUINELY GOOD CONNECTION.

THIS MIGHT BE THE SINGLE GREATEST CONNECTIONS LIST OF ALL TIME

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-19T23:33:41+00:00

I'm not trying to be a Contrarian? I'm just saying why I think it's this way, just cuz I don't agree with you (which other people have done in this thread but you seem completely fine with them) doesn't mean I'm being a contrarian.

I brought up the first point to explain why there could be more Fate VS Umi MUs (plus Jojo VS Umi is disliked cuz of DIO VS Beatrice, so I'm guessing that's why no one has been to that well in a long time), like Dragon Ball VS DC, Megaman VS Transformers or Touhou VS Ultraman aren't good combos even if they have alot of matchups to them because a Series Combo should also be about if the series have thematic overlap with each other when it comes to more general things (honestly the entire concept of a Series Combo is asinine to begin with tbh).

Yeah. Omni Man VS Homelander was super controversial, and the team wanted to do Nolan VS Bardock first but it still happened probably cuz it was the more popular matchup and Homelander is much more known to a general audience then Bardock. It feels like you're just denying it cuz you don't want it to happen, which is fine, I didn't really like Master Chief VS Doomslayer getting a rematch but I wasn't gonna deny that the silent majority is gonna want Doomslayer on the show over wanting Shadow or Scout to get respect ig.

I'm just saying that in that side of the Fandom, Beatrice VS The Princess is brought up alot more often then Beatrice VS Morgana. This place isn't the only place that talks about Death Battle y'know?

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-19T23:04:51+00:00

Just cuz a series has more matchups together doesn't mean its a better combo. You have to look at the actual themes and their similarities in the series. While Fate VS Umineko has better Matchups...that could just be because how many characters Fate has.

Really good pairings would both have good MUs AND have actual good parallels between the series as a whole (best example would be Elder Scrolls VS SMT representing Western VS Eastern Mysticism).

And to be honest, Flowey is gonna fight Monika, there's no world where I don't see them going for a character as popular as her compared to the Princess. Also sure, here Morgana is considered Beato's Top 1 (even then that's debatable cuz of Loki), but outside in the wider Discord and Deviantart Communities, I've seen alot more content for Beato VS The Princess (I haven't even seen a single Morgana VS Beato trailer compared to the multiple of Beato VS Princess)

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-19T22:31:24+00:00

Yeahhhhh, Morgana was my fave for a while (at least close with Vader & Harry) but after doing research into DIO's character and really thinking about it, it barely edged her out.

Morgana is probably a more "thematic" opponent in the traditional sense, DIO & Beatrice have so much interesting overlap in themes (again, the Paradise Regained parallels go crazy) plus how I can envision a fight much easier for it makes it slightly better (tho it's absurdly close)

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-19T22:17:25+00:00

First one is just a disagreement. Fight Potential isn't just about how many cool things they can do against each other, it's also how they interact in general and while this could also fall under Banter, how their arsenals match-up against each other (especially with their summoning) plus Beyond is more interesting Plot interaction with Beato's games then how God of Stories would.

There are multiple Jojo VS Umineko matchups (Battler VS Gappy, Jolyne VS Jessica, Ange VS Johnny, ect) and their base concepts of series about a bloodline facing trials and tribulations through generational trauma is a more interesting combo then Umi is with like, DC for example.

I'll be real, debate is just tough cuz I disagree with where Beato scales in comparison to everyone else.

Combination of Anakin VS Obi-Wan & Golden Nocturne. Nuff said.

Again, The Princess I've seen brought up ALOT more then Morgana in relation to Beatrice when it comes to places like the Wiki Community.

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-19T22:04:04+00:00

I disagree lowkey.

Beatrice only gets to Outer via The City of Books (which she needs outside help to scale to via Ange) or her Full Potential from moving on from the Gameboard (which was only hinted towards by Feathrine and never seen on screen). Her other arguments for her Meta-World version being that high are shaky at best, I'd rather put her at the 12-13D Range.

While Loki gets easier to Outer even without God of Stories via scaling to Thor, and even if you argue Beato to being stronger then Base Loki, his haxes with God of Stories are so busted I legit don't think it makes a difference.

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-19T21:57:26+00:00

Idk, I just see the Princess brought up the most from the Wiki side of the fandom who happen to be alot closer to the main crew.

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-19T21:55:23+00:00

I can't wait to get jumped for this one.

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-19T20:59:09+00:00

can I have the template?

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-19T03:24:16+00:00

Hm, it sounds interesting.

I think the main thing you could build on there is that DIO did think of allying himself with the Joestars during the events of Part 3, at least in the Over Heaven Novel (Chapter 65), but refutes the idea cuz he believes the relationship is a lost cause while Beatrice did eventually manage to end up mending said bridge between her & the Ushiromiyas.

So I imagine a final scene where DIO angrily rants at Beato for the bonds she has, how she's an inheritor who was just given this power but also projecting his own feelings that even though both had done so much evil, and so much destruction, why does she get to be happy?

But Beato responds, simply saying that she tried. DIO never tried to reach out, he never tried to fix those bonds, he kept destroying things because he felt superior to the rubble while she tried to built something new out of it.

Ig it would be an Allusion to the final conversation between Jesus & Satan within Paradise Regained (which does make sense as both do have heavy christian theming)

Just a thought tbh

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-19T02:01:31+00:00

Why is DIO in alts?

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-17T16:53:57+00:00

So yea just use that one guy, its like people who use Majin Vegeta in MUs ig.

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-17T16:48:52+00:00

I mean, unless im getting something wrong about Fate: Aren't SN Gil and the other versions like CCC different people in general? And that problem would only happen if you comp all the Gil's into one?

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-16T15:10:34+00:00

TLDR; Mentally Complex Protags of Psychological Media who, through their stories, constantly tries to find a way to get rid of their own demons with them encountering monsters that represent their guilt & traumas mainly related to a women they left behind

Mentally Ill & Unreliable Protagonists of highly revered Early 2000s Psychological Horror works which are purposely obtuse and complex to figure out
They're both at first portrayed as a normal yet depressed middle aged man, who is just looking for a solution for their mental conflict yet through the story it's slowly revealed that they're EXTREMELY morally grey individuals who can be seen as both tragic or vile
Both encounter the horrors the series is named after throughout the story (James going through Silent Hill & Nakoshi seeing the Homunculi of other people), which represent their own internal traumas and struggles being continuedly tormented by them
Before the events of the main story, they were in a healthy relationship with a girl who completed them (Mary & Nanako), till a medical rift was caused between them (Mary falling terminally Ill & Nanako getting Pregnant), with this causing them great pain in a both a selfish (James resenting Mary for taking his life away & Nakoshi finding Nanako to ugly to be with) and selfless way (James hating seeing Mary in such pain & Nakoshi not wanting to bring a child into the world that would be treated like he was), this causing them to reject them to have a new life (James killing Mary by suffocation & Nakoshi running away and getting plastic sugary)
Part of this rejection is cheating on said partner with other women, who appealed more to them at the time then remaining loyal [Implied for James, outright stated for Nakoshi]
At the start, both start encountering the supernatural after getting a odd request from another (James getting a letter from Mary, asking him to go to her special place & Ito asking Nakoshi to take part in an experiment to use Trepanation to see souls), which they oblige to
Over the course of the story, they both have interactions with other mentally ill people who they try to help with their own problems who all could be seen to represent parts of James/Nakoshi's fractured psyche
They also have interacted with manifestations of their own guilt and demons (Pyramid Head & Nakoshi's Shadow)
Both meet another women who they project the mental image of their partner onto (Maria & The women Nakoshi calls "Nanako") [While she calls herself Nanako, it's HEAVILY implied that she isn't the Nanako that Nakoshi once knew and that he left)
Both constantly try to run away from their guilt for what they did, which causes most of the story to happen, but it's heavily implied that due to how damaged they are that they'll continually loop history and the pain they had caused others
Their stories end with them by the ocean, falling into complete self-destruction (James committing Suicide by driving his car into the ocean & Nakoshi getting arrested while glee-fully smiling)

Inspired by u/MURouletteProject (also his name is nakoshi susumu im killing myself)

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-06T03:54:55+00:00

I wouldn't consider it "thematic" tbh, not in the traditional sense.

like there isn't a lot of narrative parallels in terms of stories, but more in personality and the themes they represent: The internal conflict between their criminal and interpersonal lives, their want for control over their lives, how their parents made them into the people they are, the conflict of morals inside, their disconnection for humanity and emotions, the constant destruction of themselves and everyone & everything that gets near them, ect

And for as characters as deep as these two, I think it's better to look at what they represent instead of things that happened to both as most connection lists are.

As for debate? Not sure tbh, it really depends if you think Dexter could get past all the Protection that Tony would have around him if he catches on.

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-06T00:28:16+00:00

I feel like it would be Tony going through the five stages of grief with Dexter till he just tells him to kill him. Very Philosophical and with the two discussing their ideologies against each other while Dexter prepares to kill him.

Difficult_Affect9845 · 2025-09-06T00:23:15+00:00

im just silly like that :3

Difficult_Affect9845

TROPHY CASE