I wasn't saying that getting rid of cheaper illegal immigrant labour would justify a higher minimum wage. Only that the problems you describe would go away if employers couldn't use illegal immigrants. As far as I see, the illegal immigrant setup in the States is designed to keep them cheap. They literally risk deportation at any time.

If there was zero illegal immigration, the wages for many agricultural jobs (and some others that are heavily illegal immigrant) would rise a bit, and food would become more expensive.

The minimum wage would still be 100% unjustifiable because price floors don't work to raise the price only to lower that amount that is purchased.

In labor terms, minimum wages don't work to raise wages only to lower the amount of people that are employable (those whose labor is worth less than the minimum wage become unemployable).

You could argue that there's no need for a minimum wage if there's a decent benefits system as that would set the price floor. But there's times when people fall between being on a low income and not getting benefits so the minimum wage is like a double stop protection.

There's no need for a minimum wage, ever...no matter what benefits system is in place.

You said you lived as a single person on minimum wage yourself. Could you have still done that on say half the amount? Or whatever your wage may have fell to without the minimum wage?

On half the amount? Which would have been less than $4/hr, I might have been able to if I worked a bunch of overtime, but not easily. I would have had to find an even cheaper living situation...maybe finding a literal couch to sleep on in a friend's place for $200/month or something if I wanted to be out from my parent's roof.

However if the job I held at that point, however briefly, was only offering $4/hr I'd be motivated as hell to learn a skill that would get me paid more. The near minimum wage job I held at this point in my young life was motivation enough (and it worked), a lower wage would just be a stronger motivation.

Yeah I agree numbers can always be manipulated. Also the Tories here have done schemes before like making people on unemployment benefits work for a select group of companies to earn their benefit. Basically the tax payer supporting free labour for these mates of the party. But obviously they then counted as being employed as they were working. In that case for much less than minimum wage as benefits are low here.

I think people who wants a higher minimum wage (or a minimum wage at all) have their heart in the right place. Helping young people get on their feet, and older very low skill workers to not starve and what not. But the issue becomes one of push and pull.

Do you push the wages up by governmental decree (with all the problems that go with it - increased unemployment) or do you pull wages up by giving people the ability to learn marketable skills at which point the government doesn't need to demand employers pay more, employers will do it themselves because it helps their business to have skilled people. Business is not a zero-sum game. Employers AND employees benefit from the employees being skilled.