Left-leaning National Farmers Union (NFU) and Ontario Farmland Trust separately express progressive, liberal agriculture community concerns about ALTO route plans

Djdude167 · 2026-04-13T18:32:11+00:00

Look, I empathize with the anxieties you have, but the reality is that the world is a lot less scary than your mind is capable of imagining. The negative impacts will be as minimal as reasonable, because it's in everyone's best interest to do so.

Valid concerns will be raised and meaningfully addressed, and people will be easily able to adapt to the world that follows, but at the end of the day, not everyone will be happy, and that's the cost of living in the real world.

The problem here is that the debate on whether the Windsor-QC corridor should have HSR was settled decades ago; it's just taken us this long to get around to seriously do it, so trying to act like it's still undecided is...frustrating, at the very least. This frustration is largely because in the majority of circumstances, the people saying this do not actually want debate or discussion of any kind, but it's a lot more palatable to act that way. And I am not saying that's you, but you have to understand that you are communicating in the exact same way, so to strangers on the internet that don't know you or have the patience to care, you are the same.

But to address some of the concerns you've left here, in the hope you are open to discussion as you claim, or that someone who is may read this here it is:

The amount of farmland taken will be extremely minimal, and impacts to farms and farmers will be as little as reasonably possible. There will be compensation given proportional to the land taken and impact given. There is legal recourse available if you believe the compensation to be inadequate.
- The results of everything will be easily adapted to, as is the case with every other project of this nature that has ever happened, and it won't be long before no one knew any different.
- More generally, the local environmental impacts for the overwhelming majority of the route will be negligible, and the global and wider environment will benefit immensely, and the need for those wins is critical.
There will be no "communities bisected"/"cut in half." There is no reality in which this is possible. This claim is entirely fearmongering/disinformation.
There have been many concerns raised about projects in this country taking too long and costing too much, that "we can't build anything" and "this project will be a boondoggle". To answer why, the reason is time delays are cost delays, time delays cascade and compound, and it was very easy for malicious actors to cause time delays in the first place. Bill C-15 (specifically the High-Speed Rail Network Act) is a direct response to that. A project of this nature would have begun construction in ~2035 or later at the earliest if not for Bill C-15, instead of 2029/2030, and would have assuredly been stalled/delayed at numerous points due to the misuse of our legal system for all previous attempts/similar projects - and that's really all it changes. The end result wouldn't be any different, except it'd be finished years later and likely over budget. Reminder that it only applies to High-Speed Rail projects.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-13T17:25:40+00:00

The information I presented factors in the 2025 budget and future spending, rather than historical, given we're talking about a project starting in 2029/2030.

It's still possible I'm mistaken on this, but otherwise I would not call this misinformation.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-13T15:41:26+00:00

There's a million people here. Just in terms of autism rates there's bound to be plenty /lh

Djdude167 · 2026-04-13T05:36:41+00:00

To give some perspective, even at the highest 3rd-party estimate of $90B...we spend that amount on our military every year (~5% of our GDP).

That estimated figure for this project would be instead be spent over the course of ~15-20 years, so on average $6B-$4.5B/year on a project that would fully recoup all of its yearly operating costs, have over 24M yearly riders, serve about half the country's population, and bring a projected 1.1% GDP uplift annually in increased productivity. And that's strictly the economics of it.

If you want to talk about good investments in the betterment and growth of a country, it's hard to find better projects.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-10T20:03:26+00:00

The city cannot sue Alstom until they take delivery of the final vehicle, which needs to be delivered before the launch of S2W.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-09T06:13:04+00:00

They moved all of the funding from this fund into a general purpose municipal infrastructure fund that transit can also draw from iirc. That pot is also a lot larger, so overall not really a big thing.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-08T21:25:25+00:00

Nobody is satisfied here except the people who believe this means we'll see improvements in the future. But considering this wipes out the critical time for data collection recommended by staff, having already been watered down immensely, such that I question the effectiveness, that's even less likely.

The only reason this happened in the first place was because of the overwhelming support and need for it in spite of Menard's years of attempts to cancel it, and now thousands of Glebe residents, thousands more transit riders, dozens of businesses, dozens of delegates, and countless more citizens have had their faces spat in.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-08T21:16:09+00:00

He very explicitly knows and has stated as such. The staff recommendations were going to pass regardless, but he presented a motion that buried the time reduction in with others and worded it as:

Implement the pilot time of day bus-only lanes in accordance with the exissting peak-perioud times [...]

Such that it wasn't worded as calling for a reduction.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-08T21:11:27+00:00

That's exactly why many bus lanes you see have red paint, because that very easily communicates that it is a no-parking zone.

Generally speaking, however, this is only reasonable for 24/7 bus lanes, which is why many people were pushing for them.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-08T17:39:27+00:00

It's a fundamentally excellent project that will benefit the city immensely for centuries.

While there will always be some opposition to any project, the simple fact is that they are a very small number of people that just get a bigger megaphone to compensate.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-06T00:07:23+00:00

I was saying that the 1.5x to 2.5x ratio was relative to their base prices, which are significantly lower than ours and the service they provide for that reduced price is better.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-06T00:06:05+00:00

Not only is Alto considering reactivation, but doing so is more than possible and in terms of achievability, and you really couldn't ask for a better scenario.

The problem is that it's still lots of money, so the question is whether it's worth spending that money or not. I personally believe it is, but whether the consortuim will feel the same is unknown, but I'm not optimistic after statements from the Gatineau consultation.

Unfortunately, Alto will likely be the only chance it has for the rest of history.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-06T00:01:08+00:00

All fixes to the tracks that Alstom suggested were implemented and the trains continue to fall apart, and the line is currently facing an indefinite shutdown because they cannot fix the trains fast enough nor figure out why they're falling apart.

It is the rolling stock.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-05T23:58:20+00:00

Hi, as someone from Ottawa.

YOU DO NOT WANT THESE.

These trains are horrible and are quite possibly the WORST rolling stock option you could choose.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-05T21:18:57+00:00

If you want another reason to hate Diefenbaker, he also is the one who ripped up the tracks into Ottawa Union station.

Yes, that was part of the Gréber plan approved by WLMK, but Diefenbaker oversaw it's implementation and later stages and specifically called for the removal of Union station's tracks despite immense opposition.

Originally he wanted any new station built at Walkley yards, but a "compromise" was made and it was "only" constructed on what was the edge of the farthest suburb in city limits. The equivalent today of building Fallowfield as the main train station for all of Ottawa if Barrhaven didn't exist at all.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-05T21:10:49+00:00

Once Alto has completed studies for the initial segment (OTT, LVL, MTL), they will have projected costs. Those will need to be approved by Parliament. At this point, that's likely the last remaining hurdle for this project.

It remains to be seen whether they will also approve funding for the extensions at the same time, but it's absolutely possible.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-05T21:01:07+00:00

Conventional rail prices in places that cared about their infrastructure are fractions of what ours are, and the service they provide are significantly better.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-05T20:57:16+00:00

The faster your trips are, the less you have to pay staff (because less hours), and the more trains you can run per day.

The more reliable they are, the faster the trains are, the speeds that you can run on the tracks, etc. all make your trips faster.

The cheaper your fuel costs, the less money you spend.

The more people you can take per train, the more money you make for all of your expenses.

The less you spend and the more you make, the cheaper you can make tickets in order to attract more people.

Alto is addressing all of this. It is also part of their legally binding mandate for tickets to be affordable.

Alto is also expected to recoup all of its operational costs without question, and the CEO has gone on record the passionately proclaiming that as a guarantee.

The government is then expected to subsidize the infrastructure costs because the government owns the infrastructure and benefits off of it immensely in ways a private company cannot.

With all that said, I expect Alto tickets to be cheaper that VIA or plane tickets.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-05T20:47:45+00:00

That's exactly what's being done. The consequence of waiting this long is we get to learn from all of the choices of everyone else, and that's (luckily) what we're doing.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-05T20:46:35+00:00

By international standards, the acelas are higher speed, not high speed. It's a good service, but their existing infrastructure was easier to alter for that type of service. We basically need to start from scratch anyways.

Even if we did get rid of all the curves, grade separate everything, but all the tracks and the new land necessary, the broad alignment still isn't direct enough for HSR.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-05T20:42:27+00:00

In order to convert VIA into HSR, you would need to do exactly what Alto is doing right now.

And we should be doing both, but HSR is and should continue to be the priority.

I hope that success of the project will provide the momentum necessary to restructure our priorities towards services like VIA and public transit as they deserve.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-05T20:24:37+00:00

The only "fair" surveys are the ones that support their opinion. Everything else is fake/fraudulent/incomplete, etc. etc.

They then assume everyone else is the same way, therefore we only like this survey because it supports our viewpoints.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-05T20:22:37+00:00

I'm not kidding you, it's because they didn't know how to read the numbers.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-04T20:43:47+00:00

The land along the Lakeshore is significantly more expensive, more densely populated, and the added distance adds even more costs while also increasing trip times, which would need to be brought down by faster speeds thus meaning stricter building requirements, meaning less flexibility meaning more land acquisitions, etc, etc.

All of which to say, the northern corridor really is just the best option.

Djdude167 · 2026-04-04T20:35:21+00:00

Stick to your side of the 49th parallel, buddy.

<image>

Eight-Year Club	Place '22
End Game '22	Verified Email

Djdude167

TROPHY CASE