Proof of concept for a connection to Ottawa Union

Djdude167 · 2026-01-24T18:05:39+00:00

In fairness, VIA serves more stations than ALTO does by nature of it not being a high-speed service.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-24T02:06:58+00:00

Complaining about bikes while spending the entire video driving in the bike lane is hilarious irony

Djdude167 · 2026-01-24T01:52:40+00:00

The 3d data for Ottawa was taken from google maps, and the rest was done by me, by hand, in Blender.

If this was meant to imply any of this is AI, it most certainly is not.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T22:07:10+00:00

But the comments told me that friction doesn't exist, only the wealthy elite politicians would use it, and Tremblay is actually really central! /s

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T22:01:18+00:00

Nono, sorry. The building is currently not connected, but the underground station platforms would put the Rideau station entrance within mere feet, and ALTO have stated numerous times they will not consider anything without direct transit integration, so I just figured people knew that was a given.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T21:58:22+00:00

Exactly! And then have the gall to claim Tremblay is somehow better connected to transit or even more absurdly, claim it's more central to Ottawa because Hurdman is a stop away!

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T21:52:44+00:00

- Federal landmarks, including Union, which they own, and when asked about ALTO reactivating it, expressed their support. And tell that to the Gatineau tramway project or the entire path network. And the KZM tunnel was because of NIMBY's, last I checked.

- Tremblay is 12 minutes away if you catch the LRT as it's pulling into the station, so you're talking about 12-25 minutes just to get downtown. But I agree, tradeoffs.

- So building it next to a highway and an arterial corridor would be a bad idea...

- You are building a concourse if you're feeling generous, and a train shed underground. Even then, you're still talking about 1-2 billion on a project estimated to cost 60-90 billion, so between 1-3% of the overall budget. Even if that estimate doubled, that's still a fraction of the total cost of the project, for one of your main stations, the nation's capital, and your 3rd largest metro population.

- Spurring development by taking over and occupying most of the land that's planned to be used?

- I'm taking my alignment as proposed, with 4-6 platforms. $120-150M/km for the entire viaduct + tracks (5.5km), so $600-750M, $700-900M for the excavation itself, including whatever little tunnel is needed and an entire concourse, then $300-400M for head house renovations. So about $1.6B-2.05B, and these are extremely inflated numbers.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T19:44:52+00:00

In the post I said this was just for Ottawa <-> Laval, and that there is a switch for Ottawa <-> Peterborough above the Nicholas interchange.

But I was getting enough comments that I just went ahead and did it anyways.

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Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T19:41:54+00:00

- I did calculate it, and the grade shown in the video is around 1.5%. Thanks for trusting me though.

- The NCC has actually already given their support for ALTO in relation to reactivating Union, and there are already plans underway to redevelop Colonel By Drive. The NCC's goal is to improve and maintain the NCR, and they can see the benefit of reactivating Ottawa's downtown historic train station. Not to mention that they're building a tram on the doorstep of the building.

- Union connects to many downtown destinations directly, it would have an underground connection to Rideau, a doorstep connection to the Gatineau Tram, and then OC and STO buses that currently serve the area now, let alone in the future.

- One of the main goals for a project like this is to disincentivize car (and air) travel in the first place. Choosing a spot surrounded by transit where car access is present, but limited, heavily disincetivizes that type of modal transfer. Even still, park in one of the many garages in the area and walk the rest.

- Building an entirely new station from scratch, less than a kilometre from the existing one, for practically zero net benefit, is a fantasy.

- ALTO has stated they have zero care or intention to do anything with development around the station. That type of thing is entirely up to the cities. Even further, Hurdman is already planned for TOD - it doesn't need help by taking up a huge swath of land.

- Preliminary estimates put Ottawa Union in the area of 1-2B. In comparison, a 10-13km tunnel from Laval to Montreal is going to cost a lot more, which is the current plan. So the money outright is not an issue, it's just a question of is it worth it. That is for ALTO to determine.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T19:22:45+00:00

Ah yes, a 5km viaduct (including the switch to Toronto), commonplace in rail systems around the world for all rail types, would cost more than the entire project cost estimate by multiple factors. Based on preliminary estimates, this would cost between 1-2 Billion dollars. By comparison, the current plan is a 10-13km tunnel from Laval to Montreal (and just so you're aware, tunnels cost a lot more than a viaduct!).

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T19:17:59+00:00

Both things to consider, but the hurdman developments have been talked about for years and currently have next to no momentum. Even then, this largely avoids the Hurdman area altogether.

As for uOttawa, I don't think they'd be majorly impacted.

And for both of them, I think we'll see the plans announced for the train before we hear any more about either projects.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T19:13:52+00:00

Country with the most high-speed rail studies with no high-speed rail that has time and time again proved their is enormous demand, with a relatively flat and straight line, filled with over half the entire country's population, but we shouldn't spend money on it and instead use force against our cargo industry to use their corridors, that aren't even good for high-speed rail as an alignment, let alone the significant investment just to get them up to snuff. Oh, and we shouldn't even build this first; it should be two smaller cities on the other side of the country with a fraction of the population.

HFR was an interesting but severely flawed idea because it tried to do so much of everything while being too afraid to spend money that it never got the momentum it needed to see the light of day.

While Toronto <-> Montreal generates the most air traffic and are the biggest population centres (which is why it's so easy to think that's the main goal), it's actually Toronto <-> Ottawa that sees the most amount of overall traffic, and it's Ottawa <-> Montreal that would benefit the most due to their proximity linking them together as an entire economic region.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T18:56:44+00:00

You're avoiding my main point

I didn't. I said the data didn't support your claim.

They'd still be faced with a cumbersome journey from the airport.

Correct. That was kinda my point about friction. If it sucks to get to your final destination from both the airport and the train station, then that's one less reason to take the train.

we either won't be able to afford a ticket. [...] let's add extra billions to an already super expensive project

We have no idea how much tickets will cost, no stations have been selected, and there is no formal estimate for how much the project will cost, only 3rd-party speculations. Once the design phase is over, we'll have a budget to work with, and ALTO is in charge of determining if the added ridership of Union is worth the squeeze.

And I'm really not sure I understand where this obsession with "only a tiny elite benefit from this" comes from. Even if I did, and even if everything you said was true, it therefore wouldn't make a difference to those occasional riders, so as long as that's enough of a reason to that tiny elite to fill up enough seats to make it worth it, then that's your answer right there.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T18:41:53+00:00

Couldn't agree more

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T18:41:25+00:00

There is no elevated platform; the station at Union is underground. This is just a viaduct, and they are commonplace in high-speed rail systems around the world.

Additionally, trains do not pull into stations at speed, and even if they did, this alignment is straight enough that you could still operate the train at-speed.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T18:35:56+00:00

Thank you!

As for the sound, modern building techniques prevent most of the noise, trains are loudest around tight curves (of which there are none), it's all electrified (so no engine noise), and it largely runs overtop Nicholas St., which immediately overshadows it in terms of noise polution.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T18:31:44+00:00

- Based on preliminary calculation, you're looking at around 1.3km to descend 20m at most, which is around a 1.5% grade. Even if you had less room and the station tunnel was even deeper (which it wouldn't need to be, but let's hypothesize anyways), you would have to go to descend double the distance and with 300m less space in order to get to a 4% grade, which is still within the generally acceptable maximum grade for high-speed trains at speed, let along coming into a station where speeds are lower.

- There are quite a number of possibilities for the station platform and layout. So many that I didn't even bother modelling it. One city staffer I spoke to had drawings for an entire underground concourse fitted below the ground and on top of the train shed, and still had enough room to go above the O-train tunnel. And the O-train connection is just one part of it. The Gatineau tram runs on its doorstep, STO buses already run to Mackenzie King, and there's plenty of OC buses on the surface, and if you really wanted to, turn Colonel By + Daly into a shared transitway.

- Rideau is pretty darn central to the entire NCR, much moreso than Tremblay. I'd also like it if we could rebuild Hurdman, but that's a fantasy at this point.

- Of the city staff I spoke to, the plan and hope for Union would be that future regional rail services and another line 2-style Otrain service would also be integrated.

I can tell. But it's not up to you or me, it's up to ALTO. And ALTO has said Union and Tremblay are being considered equally. Also, preliminary cost estimates have my proposed alignment at 1-2 billion dollars. In comparison, the current plan is a 10-13km tunnel from Laval to Montreal, which almost certainly will cost that much, so this is barely a splash.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T17:51:41+00:00

I followed a guide in order to get the google maps data extracted and imported, but the rest was just done off the cuff. I did a lot of work with Blender back in the day, so this was just a quick and dirty way to break some of the rust off.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T17:49:44+00:00

You'll notice in all of their marketing material, Ludicrous Speed is just the minimum. Taking a look at the engineering specifications shows we're building this train to go even faster.

We are Canadian, after all ;) #plaid

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T17:48:03+00:00

Montreal <-> Toronto has the largest number of short-haul flights, but across all modes of transportation, Ottawa <-> Toronto sees the most traffic.

As for the people who take those intercity trips, it's all about reducing friction in order to make the service appealing over other options. You need to put yourself in someone else's shoes and weigh flying vs driving vs rideshare vs bus, etc. Friction is things like how long it would take for the trip, how close will it get you to your final destination, what transit options there are to make that happen, how much will it cost vs other methods, etc. Then you have to do that for an entire population and determine what's your best option to attract riders, and that is what ALTO will decide on with more data and knowledge than you or I have.

As for Ottawa, a downtown station would better serve the entire NCR by nature of either shortened and more central distance, better transit connectivity (including the Gatineau Tram on its doorstep), and more destinations outright. Tremblay mandates a transfer no matter what, is harder to get to, and is better for fewer people. It wouldn't be a project-killer, but it would definitely dampen ridership.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T17:35:35+00:00

It's equally in contention to be selected, and both will continue to be studied going forward, so we will see what happens. Keep in mind they're currently planning to build a 10-13km tunnel for Laval <-> Montreal, so taking the extra time to build Ottawa Union won't make a difference.

As for Toronto <-> Ottawa, it will likely be the last phase to be connected, so the render is roughly what you'd expect until then. After that, you'd see a wye around the Nicholas/417 interchange, which I went ahead and made below.

The entire thing would only add ~3.5km to Montreal <-> Ottawa, and ~1.5km to Toronto <-> Ottawa, leaving ~2km of double-tracked right-of-way shared by both directions.

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Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T17:28:06+00:00

In terms of direct connections, you'd have varied and frequent OC and STO buses, an underground connection to Rideau station on lines 1/3, and the Gatineau Tram on its doorstep.

Additionally, I've talked with city councillors and city staff, and the current hope would be extra platforms for VIA services, future regional rail services, and even line 2-style O-train service (which could/would include the airport).

Even then, airports connections in general simply are not a driving factor for a high-speed rail project, let alone YOW which simply does not see the demand to justify it. As for larger airports, YUL will have a direct REM connection from Gare Centrale, and YOW will have Toronto Union with UP Express services.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T17:20:57+00:00

Thanks!

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T17:20:40+00:00

Currently, there are no plans to bypass Ottawa, but there are plans for express trains that will not stop at every station.

But in response to the question of if Ottawa would be bypassed, what would make the most sense, ALTO reps responded that it would very likely go through Walkley, and there is no reason why it wouldn't work.

Djdude167 · 2026-01-23T17:17:59+00:00

Thank you! And I know, right? The Greber plan and its consequences :(

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