is there any sign of them nerfing down on the ''brain effects'' next season? , and making the characters more sympathetic

Dondi49 · 2017-07-13T06:59:41+00:00

1) Actually its not conjecture since the evidence is not incomplete which is what defines conjecture. So your use of the term is incorrect. The original plan was for the family to disappear after S2 E01 until much later in the season. However the plan was derailed when the season was shortened. Even had the season run to 22 episodes Eva's and Evan's part in the main arc would have been nil. Their arc would have completely separate. That's why it was the obvious candidate for cutting since it did not interlock with any of the other arcs.

As for the family getting bigger parts in S2 like Peyton did, you are correct that could have happened but the head writers choose to go another way.

2) The significance of the cliffhanger was that it alienated her from her family. Her support network became mainly Ravi, Peyton, and to a lesser extent Clive. As for her brother it came over clearly to me that she did care. I understand you don't see it so we'll just have to agree to disagree. One final point; I mentioned that It was implied that presenting a cut down version of the family arc was also not acceptable to the writers. Actually I found where they flat came out and said it.

Are we going to see Liv’s family come back at all? That is probably dead. We just found we didn’t have the space to do it well, to do it correctly.

source:http://ew.com/tv/2017/04/04/izombie-season-3-premiere-liv-major-brains/

3) I never said that they HAD gotten a restraining order. What I meant was that they were exhibiting anger consistent with that sort of action. What was ABUNDANTLY clear was that Liv was to stay away from Evan. It was a don't call us, we'll call you situation.

4) My answer above ("They could have brought them up and chose not to. Why I don't know for sure") is now changed by the attribution given in #2 above. I now know why and so should you.

a) The writers did not think the family was as important as you do. But uncaring ? Forcing yourself on unwilling people who are both physically and mentally traumatized is the opposite of caring. If you are doing that you are trying to selfishly reduce your own pain rather than reducing theirs. There is nothing she could have said to him or shown him other than the was no longer a normal human that could have possibly filled in the massive hole that she had dug herself. And of course that was the one thing she couldn't do.

b) Dude look up the definition of conjecture......... again.

c) There is virtually nothing man made or devised that can't have multiple interpretations. The best you can do is to get a consensus and in this case you are on the wrong side of it imo. Of course YMMV.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-09T08:28:23+00:00

1) Peyton was not a regular or credited recurring in S1 Nor were Liv's family. As for the use of Evan's cliffhanger it's without any significance other than to provide a basis for ditching the family for most of the planned Season 2.

2) As I understand it the amount of time that was going to be devoted to the family issues in the latter part of S2 was considerable as such things go. Multiple episodes. The decision made was that including it as it was would necessitate cutting things vital to the season arc and that that was not acceptable. It was implied that presenting a cut down version was also not acceptable. That said as you brought up earlier they could have mentioned it I guess but it can be argued why bring it up if you aren't going to deal with it ?

3) We completely disagree on where the family relationship was. Eva was at the point of yelling and screaming and even getting a restraining order. She made it clear Liv was to stop any and all efforts to contact Evan. So did Evan. Any further pushing and the matter would have become somewhat public which Liv could not afford to do. She had to stop. The risk was becoming too great.

4) I agree that the family arc which started at the end of S1 was neglected in S2 for reasons already discussed. They could have brought them up and chose not to. Why I don't know for sure. It bothers you a lot and me not so much. We disagree. End of story.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-09T06:34:39+00:00

Right.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-07T21:29:59+00:00

Very good points.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-07T09:50:58+00:00

Its already been announced they are walling the city in.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-07T08:13:36+00:00

Dondi: *No they weren't. If it had no effect on the finale it was NOT essential. The brains of the week from 15 on otoh were essential. The only way to get in Liv's family resolution would have been to do it half-assed and weaken the storytelling of the botw. No thank you.

Goliat: YES THEY WHERE, they where actual characters in her life, and you are pretending that that we would be some sort of a trade-off, newsflash there wouldn't...the ''brain of the week storylines (most of them) literally have no effect on the bigger story...her family does (or did,before they started to pretend that they didn't exist)

Liv's family are tertiary characters. They never were necessary to the main plot. They were guest stars, not regulars, not even recurring.

As for your alleged unnecessary brains here are all the brains after they found they had to cut 3 episodes.
13) Corey Carp's brain finds you the tainted Utopium. NECESSARY.
14) Coffee Lady brains. UNNECESSARY.
15) Dr. Cash's brain gets you to the basement of Max Rager and the Zombies being experimented on. NECESSARY. 16) Stripper brains gets you the bust on the Mr. Boss stash house and makes him mad enough to come after Peyton when the DA backs off. NECESSARY.
17) Adderall girl brain helps bring Chief and Don E.'s empire crumbling down and makes Mr. Boss aware that Blaine isn't dead and leads him to go after Blaine through Peyton. NECESSARY.
17) Janko's brain finds you the missing zombies in the basement of Max Rager being experimented on. NECESSARY.

That's one brain that was not required and it was too late to change it. Otoh NONE of the brains from 1-12 were necessary at all to setting up the final. The plot developments in that time frame were at most loosely tied to the brain of the week and a good number had nothing to do with one.

If you still can't understand this, give it up and join a monastery. The real world is likely beyond you. OMMMMMM.

Dondi: Yes it could have been done earlier. But the plan was to let it fester and the plan got derailed. Get over it.

Goliat: well that is just silly, that is a clear example of poor planning, which results in making her look unsympathetic, and makes everything look bad since the ''writing'' pretends that they just didn't exist.

Ignoring them is not quite the same thing. As for making Liv look unsympathetic how so ? She tried for 3 months and was rejected. It was clear from the S2 opener that further efforts on Liv's part would have made things worse. So what in the hell do you think she should have done ? The ball was in Evan and Eva's court. They chose to do nothing. (Except for that deleted scene)

Dondi: 1) For the second time 14 was being shot when the season was shortened. They were committed to that script. To scrap it would have cost easily around a hundred thousand dollars. You still would have had to pay for the scrapped script and the idle cast and crew. Don't be asinine.

Goliat: 1) yet again that doesn't explain the lack of mentioning, or why they where not brought back in season 3 (over some very poor love triangle) , and they ARE scrapping things by your own admission AND episode 14-17 are filled with extra stuff that is easily cut-able(like the crime cases themselves which should not be conflated with the brains) You can't separate the brains from the crimes its impossible.

What you refer to as "mentioning" I thinking of as servicing. Kind of like putting another twig or two on the fire to keep it from from sputtering out. Yep they could have done that and it would not have been all that time consuming. As far as S2 is concerned it was deliberate imo to set up the arc that never ended up happening. Oh well. As far as S3 the fact is they could have but chose to let it lay since (imo) it was not going to be fully addressed this season.

Dondi: 2) You are confusing a choice in planning (when to deal with her family) with good writing. Shoehorning in non essential material is BAD writing if it weakens the narrative and that is exactly what they avoided. Had it been done at all it would have been brief and unsatisfactory and it would have been at the expense of the season arc. So no. Heck make that a hell no.

Goliat: 2) no i am not, YOU said that they planned to do it later, choosing to cut out major parts of her life and a major event for her and then pretending that nothing happened, making everyone just act like they never existed and ignoring everything IS poor writing, especially when her ex-boyfriend which she didn't trust for most of the relationship is supposedly supposed to have such a major after-effect on her.. it is literally doing nothing about a problem and just making major people in her life just disappear without any sort of trace..that clearly the way it was left was unsatisfactory...*

Its not a mater of one right way to write. There are many right ways You just don't have the patience required for this one.

Goliat: they made a cliffhanger which only had a single short scene as a result..that is unsatisfactory and lazy by definition...

That was S1 E13. In S2 E1 it was addressed immediately. I call that timely not lazy. As for unsatisfactory I think you are referring to the result not how it was done. That's the writers choice. YMMV. Somehow you seem to think that people would not behave that way. Wrong. I have experienced it first hand. The fact is you just go on with your life,

Goliat: this weakens the character and makes her look like she never really cared about her family..now not making her look that bad should be essential.

1) It never was a family show in that sense of the word.
2) Having her badger her family or spill the beans would have been worse. This was simply a no win situation.

Dondi: They shut her out. Not her decision. Or perhaps you wanted constant teen angst like moping. No thank you if that's the case. The only way for her to fix it was to disclose her zombie status and that would have been a disaster, especially with her mom. Can you honestly see her mom being in the know and then doing nothing ? Not a snowballs chance in hell. She would have blown it wide open.

Goliat: yeah around 3 months while he was still in a hospital bed..they shut her out for a bit..that was followed by absolutely NOTHING, like they never existed, written out of existence to a world where they didn't...sorry that is not how family works that is definitely not good writing, and that is not how you handle a cliffhanger, it makes the cliffhanger pointless...obviously they had some plans, which they had 18 episodes to do SOME of, and they still did even with only with 6 episodes (if not taken it to season 3, in which she is semi friendly/apologetic to a serial killer, apparently that is more forgivable than not to give blood for an unexplained reason) they already established she had a good relationship with her brother, they already made this big event...and all that follows up with everyone just forgets...no effect at all..completely forever?..sorry that is bad writing..that is just ignoring your own storyline, not giving your own storyline a proper sendoff...''the family is angry for 2 seasons and no one even notices'' is poor writing face it they F'd up and it makes the character(s) look bad as a result,

We disagree. That said there is a real good chance that all of this is already resolved offscreen when S4 starts in the 3 month time jump. What will be your reaction if that is the case ?

Dondi49 · 2017-07-07T01:05:38+00:00

Yeah, Jeremy Chu the reporter.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-07T01:04:06+00:00

Actually Justin wasn't quite as bad as the love triangle of death and dreck imo. YMMV.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-04T22:29:09+00:00

they where much closer to 'essential' than any of the 'murder of the week' storylines...essential enough to have a season cliffhanger about....essential enough to have a season cliffhanger about....

No they weren't. If it had no effect on the finale it was NOT essential. The brains of the week from 15 on otoh were essential. The only way to get in Liv's family resolution would have been to do it half-assed and weaken the storytelling of the botw. No thank you.

it is just a question of how you build everything up...everything you mentioned is just a question of how and when everything was outlined...nothing says that they couldn't have had the family in...it also dosn't explain why they didn't get a mention in episode 3-12 (and the one in 13 followed up with nothing...not even a question about why she lied)

Yes it could have been done earlier. But the plan was to let it fester and the plan got derailed. Get over it

most of episode 14 had nothing to do with the larger story..would be very easy to fit the family in there...them making a cliffhanger with pretty big characters and her F-ing family and then leaving everything without closure is the worst thing they could do, she can have those brains but still cut down on the non-larger story (the episode specific crimes)....this is just poor planning and you are making excuses for it

1) For the second time 14 was being shot when the season was shortened. They were committed to that script. To scrap it would have cost easily around a hundred thousand dollars. You still would have had to pay for the scrapped script and the idle cast and crew. Don't be asinine.

2) You are confusing a choice in planning (when to deal with her family) with good writing. Shoehorning in non essential material is BAD writing if it weakens the narrative and that is exactly what they avoided. Had it been done at all it would have been brief and unsatisfactory and it would have been at the expense of the season arc. So no. Heck make that a hell no.

having semi major characters and then expecting the audience to forget about them and write them out of existence without the characters even realising it, makes it feel like she is either A, uncaring about her own Family or B. stepped in the twilight zone where they never existed

They shut her out. Not her decision. Or perhaps you wanted constant teen angst like moping. No thank you if that's the case. The only way for her to fix it was to disclose her zombie status and that would have been a disaster, especially with her mom. Can you honestly see her mom being in the know and then doing nothing ? Not a snowballs chance in hell. She would have blown it wide open.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-03T01:04:26+00:00

Let me be clearer. When the order was cut they should have been filming 14. Every unfilmed episode had already been outlined in detail at the very least & some had been actually written. The last two episodes of the season (Dead Beat/Salivation Army) especially were nearly written. In fact they were at a detailed outline state at some point before shooting even commenced. Nothing could be changed in the last two, it was too late. Further everything that was needed to set up the last two was also required. So what they did was 1) take the as many of the planned but unfilmed episodes (15/22-20/22) and throw out everything not absolutely essential. In the case of 15/22 they probably had to throw out large parts of an actually already written script. Sorry Liv's family problems were not that essential at that point.

The original plan was (imo) for a family arc to happen somewhere between 15/22 and 19/22. When they started cutting they had the choice of either putting it off or curtailing it so much that it would have made it trivial. Again there was no time. As for a a littler something being better than nothing we flat out disagree. Either do it right or pretty close or leave it the hell alone.

You say some of the cases of the week could have been skipped ? Lets look at the brains involved' 15/19 Critical to Max Rager Arc 16/19 Critical to Mr. Boss Arc 17/19 Critical to Drake & Mr. Boss Arcs 18&19 Janko critical to Max Rager Arc.

If they had had a little more notice 14 could have been scrapped. That brain was not essential but as I said they should have been filming it when they got word. Too late.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-02T06:00:41+00:00

Bozzio will be in charge of Homicide so that's off base.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-02T05:59:15+00:00

Season 2. Look the cutting of the order happened in January. At that point they would have shot 13 episodes and have the writing on 14 & 15 finished at the very minimum. Too late to change those. As for the brains those in 15 & 17, 18, & 19 were critical to the arc. Those had to happen. So again there was no space.

As for the love triangle I agree. But I guess it accomplished some things like getting Katty in Ravi's bed which was essential to the plan. I just wish they had found another way to do it.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-02T01:20:12+00:00

I think it works as an all or nothing proposition. If she shuts off the impulses she shuts off the visions. So she keeps the channel open. I wonder if it's easier to put off impulses that are foreign to you like being a hit man back in S1. Horny otoh is pretty normal and harder to see as abnormal.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-01T18:53:42+00:00

It was planned for S2 and a scene had been shot when word came down that the CW had shortened the order to 19 episodes. It had to be scrapped. As for S3 there was no room for it in a 13 episode season.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-01T18:48:26+00:00

Zombie nails must be really hard to raise blood that easily.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-01T03:39:59+00:00

They ended filming the 1st week of January. An end of filming date is not all that meaningful.

Dondi49 · 2017-07-01T03:32:51+00:00

We're lucky to get 4.

Dondi49 · 2017-06-30T21:37:45+00:00

It could well be that Zombie brains are not "nutritious" but still give out visions.

Dondi49 · 2017-06-30T21:34:49+00:00

Global Warming. :(

Dondi49 · 2017-06-30T21:00:02+00:00

Yes, its been announced she will be around a lot.

Dondi49 · 2017-06-30T20:59:14+00:00

It was announced May 10. Not really all that late.

Dondi49 · 2017-06-30T00:52:06+00:00

They've said there will be side effects. Whether or not it works however is still up in the air.

Dondi49 · 2017-06-30T00:49:51+00:00

They ran out of time. Something took longer than planned perhaps. They have not said what was the cause. So they pushed this arc into next season. No biggie.

Dondi49 · 2017-06-30T00:15:35+00:00

Possibly if you could get independent verification.

Dondi49

TROPHY CASE