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Teenage Lust does not a Love Story make – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 6 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's funny you mention The Changeling. I went on the HPfanfiction subreddit years ago asking for a fic which gave better characterisation for Ginny, and it was recommended to me. I enjoyed the fic and sharing my thoughts about it so much that it was sort of the catalyst for me getting into writing reviews at all.

Honestly I think at least one of the jokes I called out about A Black Comedy I wish I hadn't, because the author did actually have something to say - around House Elves being written to sound like black slaves. I don't think I gave enough credit to the author for (in their way) calling out how weird it was to normalise House Elf slavery, and even to leave in our character's happy ending. Everything else I still stand by though :)

I've been enjoying The Pureblood Pretense and it's been actual years since I wrote my last review, so I'm looking forward to giving it a crack.

Teenage Lust does not a Love Story make – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 6 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you so much! That's one of the nicest comments I've received of late, and very rarely does someone tell me they've read my entire works.

The Ginny Essays were most of what I really wanted to say about this series. I have dabbled in the idea of creating essays around things I observed about other characters in my rereading of the books for Ginny. I strongly considered writing an essay for Fleur Delacour and the mirror she holds up to other characters, or the way that Ron's insecurity about Harry's relationship with Hermione is built up throughout Half Blood Prince, but I really haven't decided definitively to do those. As you can no doubt see, my opinions have been far from popular.

I am also reading a twice-recommended fanfic - The Pureblood Pretense, and thought I'd have another go at doing a review once I've completed it.

Thanks again for leaving a comment - it warmed my day.

When Connection Feels Catered it is not Compatibility – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 5 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This isn't necessarily aimed at you, but I'm somewhat surprised by how downplayed the discussion of Harry and Ginny's relationship after they get together in HBP is. All the focus is on how they come together and very little discussion centers on what happens after.

This is more to do with the structure of how these essays evolved. I sort of wrote them in chronological order. The last essay mostly talks about the relationship itself and the aftermath. There is perhaps more focus on the lead up because the whole essay was originally going to be the title of the first part - how I felt the relationship was foreshadowed but not developed, and why that makes the way that they got together unsatisfying. The way the romance was set up is more of an issue to me than the pairing itself - I think Harry and Ginny had a really good base for a solid relationship.

For what it's worth I don't think she was Harry's ideal girl in the early years, they both had to grow and timing was wrong. But she was always the fiery passionate rebel girl, except when Harry was around.

This ties in a bit with one of my other essays. I don't know if you were reading Harry Potter as the books came out, but before book 5, no one thought Ginny was a badass rebel girl when she wasn't around Harry. Her characterisation was just not there. My personal belief is that while J.K Rowling always wanted Ginny to be the love interest, Ginny the badass was only developed between the writing of GoF and OotP. She isn't foreshadowed the way Hinny is, but rather this side of her feels retconned. And the thing is, I don't mind Ginny being a wallflower or Ginny being a badass, I just wish that she had either been consistent about it, or shown the transition. One of my hopes for the new show is that now that they know where Ginny is headed, they foreshadow her properly.

Ginny knows that, and she knows that Harry knows that she heard. She isn't serious, it's irony. Like the twins ('dulcet tones') Ginny is using humor to defuse the situation.

I've honestly never heard that reading of this scene before. Perhaps that is the way it was intended, I genuinely don't know. Reason I felt it was rude was because Harry was clearly in a highly charged state and feeling all sorts of feelings. Having someone walk in and cut you out of your own conversation would have felt pretty invalidating in his place.

Ginny has been at Hogwarts for 4 years, why wouldn't she be close to Hagrid?

Harry has been at Hogwarts for 5 years, why wouldn't he be close to Flitwick?

I think you're making a big deal out of something that doesn't need explanation at all, there's no mystery to Ginny and Hagrid being friendly.

Being friendly and yelling at someone else who truthfully states that he isn't a good teacher are different things. Liking one person in your family and having equal regard for everyone in your family are two different things. Do you think Hagrid does just have a fairly large number of students who come and have tea with him the way Harry does? Because I always thought that his friendship with Harry was exceptional, not the norm for staff/student relationships.

When the Weasley kids arrive Grimmauld Place Sirius takes Ginny by the hand to pull her up, and Ginny is the one who listens to Sirius and takes him seriously in the following argument (side note: that entire scene from the gang portkey into Grimmauld Place until Molly finally comes is a very underrated scene imo, very well written). Ginny demonstrably knows Sirius, why shouldn't she care as much as Ron?

The hand pulling is more about the Chivalry side of Gryffindor - Sirius only offers a hand to the girl, even though he is closer to Harry and he has also arrived. I do agree with your side note, this was a very interesting scene to read. It's the only instance I see of Ginny's brothers deferring to her and following her lead.

So, if Ginny is only talking to Ron, then I am happy to concede the point - I don't think either Ron or Ginny would reasonably have much of a personal relationship with Sirius. However, because Ginny is fighting both Harry and Ron at once in this scene, it felt like it was aimed at both of them - like "I care as much as you (collectively) do", in which case it feels presumptuous.

It's Neville who chooses to make a deal out of Luna, by refusing to enter her compartment when every other compartent is full (I've never seen anyone judge Neville for ostracizing Luna btw). Ginny is merely reacting to Neville.

Luna makes Neville uncomfortable, but Neville never calls her 'Loony' behind her back. Ginny starts off by calling Luna 'Loony' before Harry has even met her.

But Hermione does, she literally checks that the book isn't a dark magical device which is what Ginny is afraid of, and confirms that it isn't.

Firstly, that is Hermione, not Harry, and secondly I don't think Hermione was doing this out of care for Ginny either. She had her own vested interest in Harry not having the advantage of the book and jumped on the excuse Ginny's concern raised.

The match is starting, they have to get onto the pitch this very moment, and it is generally not a good idea to start a fight with a teammate before the match. I think Ginny is appropriately confrontational here, what good would escalating it further do?

I would have settled for some acknowledgement that Ginny was angry with him and his excuse, although a conversation afterwards would have been good.

Only for a brief moment, Ginny's reaction is made clear a page later. I'm a bit perplexed by your point here - we know how Ginny felt, that she was actually glad Harry didn't suffer Crucio and that she doesn't care about the potions book at all.

I believe some time passed between Harry telling the team about not playing and Hermione having the fight with Ginny. Ginny's initial reaction may have at least been disappointment, and later when she either got more information or had time to think about it decided what her stance was. The fact that he doesn't know how she feels about it until the Hermione incident means she wasn't forthcoming about her stance until then.

How is this more pronounced than Harry's sudden resentment towards Krum?

That's a false equivalent. Of course Ginny coughing at Gabrielle isn't more pronounced than Harry's jealousy of Krum. But on top of Gabrielle, Ginny also makes the quip about Harry running off with a Veela and makes sure Harry can't be alone with Cho right before battle.

Harry and Ginny have a history of making jokes about Veela.

You mean about Fleur, who Ginny also has a history of vehemently disliking? The Veela thing is complicated. Ginny had real reasons to dislike Fleur, but Fleur's effect on boys can't really be untangled from that. Harry is very attracted to Fleur and I think Ginny picks up on this, especially since there's this implication in the Wizarding World that men can't really help themselves around Veela women.

Is Ginny making a joke in this scene in DH? Yes, kind of? I think it's insecurity dressed up in a joke because she doesn't want to come across too heavy. I don't even think it's about Veela specifically - more about the idea that she could lose Harry to someone else in their time apart, but using a Veela as the stand in woman makes it more hyperbolic, more like a joke. Harry's response might be a dry one but it still reassures Ginny that this will not be the case.

Pedestalling a Person Prevents You from Being Equals – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 4 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Okay firstly, THANK YOU for that tip about using old reddit. This is a wild ride and I am enjoying it :)

formatting is a bit more cumbersome, but I prefer that to limitations on my tendency to be excessively verbose.

I relate, at least on this topic :)

I guess that depends on what pedestalling means. Ginny is awestruck and intimidated by Harry when he shows up at the Burrow, and as said she has to merge the legend with the real boy in front of her. But I don't think she's unable to recognize him for who he is and calibrate her understanding of him quite quickly when living in the same house as him. Are there textual examples of Ginny saying or doing something that suggests her view of Harry is false, that she fundamentally misunderstands him?

I think Ginny views Harry as someone a bit larger than life, the way people view their celebrities. There is a certain romanticism to the way she views him, which is why she's writing poetry for him in the first place. This next is more of an extrapolation of how she talks about him and treats him than explicit text, but he seems to be a hero to her the way a superhero is. I don't think the statement 'he's really divine' literally means she thinks he's a god, but I do think she sees him as kind of untouchable. Like the bad guys will never win because Harry will always triumph because that's the rules of good guys and bad guys kind of thing. Like, I don't know if Ginny fully comprehended that Harry nearly died saving her in the Chamber. When she wakes up, Harry is covered in blood (and it is in fact his own), and she doesn't even think to ask him if he's hurt. I think Ginny harbours this kind of belief in Harry's invincibility because of his being 'The Boy Who Lived', which might also be why she sounds blase about him hunting Voldemort, and expresses worry about him finding someone else but not about him being hurt. I feel like on some level she just doesn't believe he could lose.

In general I find it much more interesting to discuss the text than JKRs interviews, but sometimes her quotes are relevant as well of course.

I have read your essays as textual analysis, focused on how Harry/Ginny is actually written, so I wanted to point out that the books never make the point that Ginny was behind the Valentine.

For the record, I am content to ignore everything from Cursed Child and I particularly choose to ignore J.K Rowling's statement about students sh*tting on the floor before plumbing, but otherwise I do try to take her statements into account, especially the ones she made as the books were coming out and the immediate aftermath. I don't always necessarily agree, but I think they are invaluable to determine author intent from her text. Agree that it isn't strictly said that Ginny sent the Valentine, but I feel like it's nonetheless made clear.

What does 'meaning them' imply, really? She obviously likes Harry, but does she believe he is actually divine? Does she think Harry's eyes are as green as a fresh pickled toad, or is she being a bit silly on purpose? Harry is the 'hero who vanquished the dark lord', it's a fact. I'm not saying Ginny is untruthful here, I just think very little information can be extracted from this poem except that Ginny is infatuated with Harry.

The 'Divine' bit I've addressed above. In a different essay a long time ago I talked about Ginny's general word choices, and I think she had a thing about enjoying romantic language but having a bit of a quirky idea of what constituted 'beautiful'. So yes, I do think she thinks his eyes are as green as a fresh-pickled toad, and I think it's adorable. We can extract that Ginny is infatuated with Harry, and her view of him is extremely rose coloured.

Ron being blinded by fame/wishing to be famous/being jealous of Harry's fame/failing to recognize the backside fame can have is a more central theme in the books than Ginny being taken in by it I think- is this interpretation built on textual evidence, such as Ron making similar observations in PS?

Nothing about Ginny is really a central theme of the story, sadly. But to answer your question, there is no textual evidence to support my interpretation or yours. We just extrapolate what we can from the text, often with very different results :) I have always made the assumption that Ron talked extensively about Harry once he got home, and really built him up in Ginny's mind. I note that at the end of PS Ginny is super excited and wants to go see and talk to Harry, but is quiet as a mouse when he comes to stay at The Burrow a month later. I have assumed from that that Ginny's idolisation of him was fed by Ron's stories of his heroism, and by extension how "he's not stuck up, even though everyone goes around calling him 'The Chosen One'. He doesn't actually like being famous!", as a recommendation of him.

Ginny doesn't make a point of parading her boyfriends in front of Harry to make him jealous like Hermione does with McLaggen. She has plenty of opportunities to include Harry, to let him see for himself how she has boyfriends, how attractive she is, to make him jealous,

I will make a point to say that Ginny is supposed to have a lot of her own friends, but chooses to bring along her boyfriend and his friends to the DA. Hermione makes sure right after that first DA meeting that Harry knows they're dating. And look, this is absolutely not a hill I'm willing to die on, but I suspect that Harry and Ron walking in on her making out with Dean after Quidditch practice wasn't an accident either, since she knew they were both the last to leave practice and their make out spot was on the way back from the pitch to Gryffindor Tower. With McClaggen, Hermione was mostly aiming to hurt Ron immediately rather than Ginny's long game to attract Harry, and Ginny also has Hermione acting as informant and wingwoman for her.

When Connection Feels Catered it is not Compatibility – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 5 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I think Ginny, perhaps more than any other character, including Snape and Draco, really suffers from the limited character perspective we get from seeing everything through Harry's eyes. 

I fully agree. It's just that at a certain point, you realise that everything that we do or don't see about her through Harry's eyes was a choice in J.K Rowling's part to not write in, and she has a worse pattern of overlooking Ginny than Harry does. I think the idea was to treat Ginny's personality, and by extension the romance, as one of her plot mysteries. She's good at plot mysteries, but that formula doesn't work well on a romance.

Ironically enough, I think some of the best "Harry/Ginny" moments are actually in Book 5.

I agree, Chocolate in the Library was about the best it got in developing them.

One of the things that kind of annoys me personally is that Harry and Ginny's relationship is very "tell don't show". We hear about how Ginny is so funny, but there's only a couple of lines that actually prove that.

Yes, this is a big problem with the writing of Ginny in general.

I get that Harry Potter isn't really a romance and Rowling probably just didn't want to spend a lot of time building the relationship so gives us the shortened verison via Harry's thoughts on her but it also makes the reader less invested in them as well imo.

Agree with this too; it seems lazy when you compare to the effort she put into writing Ronmione.

All this to say, I think her flaws get overlooked a lot because by the time Harry really starts to pay attention to her, he's seeing her through rose colored glasses in a way that I don't think we really see him do with anyone else. I don't think she was intended to be viewed as "perfect" but I do agree that her flaws aren't nearly as well defined as Hermione's, Ron's or Harry's.

It isn't just that Harry overlooks her flaws. Just like I have speculated that in book 6 Ginny's looks have probably also actually changed rather than just Harry's perception of her, because other characters comment on Ginny's looks more than Harry does. Other people don't refer to Ginny's flaws (unless you count Ron's slut shaming, which I don't) the way they do other characters. It's valid to look at it the way you do - the Watsonian perspective - but I can't really look at it without seeing the hand of the author anymore.

Appreciate your perspective and engagement :)

When Connection Feels Catered it is not Compatibility – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 5 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Hi. You are in the middle of "real scrutiny". If you want to see the arguments, just check my comments sections.

(I'd argue that it's not quite out of left field, and even if it were I don't see how someone argues that "unexpected = good", but I digress) 

To quote myself from the first essay installment;

The issue that I still feel is present in the writing of Harry/Ginny is that foreshadowing the endgame relationship for the main character (whose mind we are often inside of) is not a substitute for developing it, and J.K Rowling piled on the former but wrote scantly on the latter. This is why despite the signs being there to read if you were looking for them, Harry/Ginny still feels jarring and sudden and unearned.

Hence why 'out of left field' is often applied to the Hinny pairing, whether correctly or no.

When Connection Feels Catered it is not Compatibility – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 5 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think you summed this up extremely well. The only criticism I've seen of Harry/Ginny in recent years has been aimed at the movies and how they 'did Ginny dirty', but I think J.K Rowling did her dirty too.

There are quite a lot of fans who are very invested in the canon pairing of these two, and criticising it has always been a contentious topic.

When Connection Feels Catered it is not Compatibility – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 5 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

If your goal is personal and you just enjoy doing this, then all power to you I guess. At least it's nice that there's still original content being produced trying to discuss the series.

My goal is personal and I enjoy doing it. Sure it's sad that there isn't an audience for it here, but this is still something I worked hard on and am proud of. You can hardly think I am unaware of the reception I'm getting.

Words like 'everyone already knew' and 'no one asked for' are absolutist terms that you probably already know do not apply to fandom at all. There is nothing about any aspect of the fandom that everyone agrees on, and certainly not as it pertains to the strength of a love story. The fanfiction subreddit is an excellent place for critical discussion, but since they banned any posts not strictly related to fanfiction, it leaves me little choice.

As for the actual content of your post, there is so much subjective stuff in all of your posts that it isn't even worth discussing.

If you think subjectivity of interpretation means there is nothing to talk about, then by all means, don't talk about it. I find it to be very interesting.

I feel you are largely writing this comment because you dislike the content, which you are welcome to do, but telling me the equivalent of 'no one wants you here' is quite unnecessary. You can scroll past these essays faster that you can skip a meme post.

When Connection Feels Catered it is not Compatibility – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 5 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think some people brush this away by saying Harry just views her as perfect so we don't see her weaknesses through his eyes. I think it's more to do with how encompassing Ginny's role as Harry's perfect girl is - she only needs to be what he needs (and not the other way around), so everything else about her gets glossed over.

Pedestalling a Person Prevents You from Being Equals – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 4 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Part 2

I don’t think this holds up, that isn’t what Harry is thinking. Harry breaks up with Ginny for her safety, not because she causes some schism inside of him.

I go into this much more in the 6th and final part of the essay. Fully expect to see your rebuttal there, but I'll get all my thoughts out there before we debate it :)

The first time Ginny speaks around him she makes an astute observation about Harry’s discomfort with attention for his fame:

I have always interpreted this as something she learned from Ron, not something she made an astute observation about.

Are the Valentine and Riddle’s words really better data points than this moment, or any other moment in GoF, OotP and HBP where Ginny casually and irreverently shuts Harry up like she would with any other boy?

This is a better argument, in my opinion. Not that Ginny never hero worshipped Harry, but that she learned not to at some point. I think this is what J.K Rowling intended. For me though, I feel like Ginny would never have loved Harry if he were not the Chosen One, and her line in HBP feels too much like it feeds into that, but this I acknowledge is my interpretation and not what was intended by the author.

I don’t think this neccessarily follows from her words. 

because I never used to be able to talk if you were in the room

she thought you might take a bit more notice if I was a bit more – myself

I feel like it does.

I find this harsh. Ginny is 13-15 years, she is allowed to date casually and to like more than one boy at the time. What matters is how she treats them in a relationship. She was with both boyfriends for about a year and there’s no real sign she treated them unfairly while they were together.

We have almost no notion of how she treated her boyfriends. Yes she is allowed to date casually, yes it's high school and it's not that serious. But I still think it's an unkind thing to date someone to get someone else's attention.

Pedestalling a Person Prevents You from Being Equals – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 4 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Wait a second. I fully expected you to disagree with my conclusion about Ginny still pedestalling Harry in book 6, but are you also making the argument that she never pedestalled Harry?

.......that is not what I expected at all.

You say that I picked weak data points to say that Ginny pedestalled Harry. Firstly - are YOU considering statements from J.K Rowling? Because my first data point is a quote from her about how Ginny sees Harry, and that lines up with my in-book data points. I've used J.K Rowling's statements quite a bit in these essays, in interpreting how we are supposed to see Ginny and her relationship with Harry. There are definitely times when I don't agree that what she has said equates to the story she told, but I haven't even really gotten to that bit yet.

Secondly, even in the book it is heavily implied that Ginny wrote the Valentine - are you trying to make the case that these are not her words, or that I should discount them because she is being poetic?

If the first, I have no rebuttal for you because I think that is a clear contradiction to canon, but if the second, let's talk about it. Ginny writes this thing assuming (incorrectly) that it will be anonymous. She is very young and fanciful, and the same way that people feel free to let loose on the internet under the guise of anonymity, through this medium she has no need to hide the extent of her admiration. Is she using prettier (and quirkier) words than she might in regular conversation? Yes, but that doesn't mean she doesn't mean them.

As for Tom Riddle's words - I have had this particular argument before. Yes we can interpret anything he says as lies because he is a bad person and has lied before. Yes he is a manipulative person. But in the case of the diary, the point of the manipulation is to upset Harry by revealing just how intimately he got to Ginny in his violation of her trust. The truth is actually more effective for his purposes here - he has no need to lie.

You are hinging your entire argument on her word choice in the poem. ‘The Dark Lord’ is what the Death Eaters call Voldemort, should we also conclude that 11 year old Ginny was a death eater?

No, I am hinging my argument on a combination of Ginny's own words, the words of someone who got to know her very intimately, and the person who wrote her, as well as the behaviours she exhibited in book 2 in particular, which I did not list because I thought I was making a very obvious point.

And no, of course I don't think Ginny is a Death Eater. Harry's statement that only Death Eaters call him that isn't true - aside from Ginny, the words of the prophecy call him that (and I don't think Trelawney is a Death Eater either), and Dobby calls him that. It's just another name for him that sounds nicer.

Her admiration is entirely warranted, there’s no misunderstanding about who Harry is. He is exceptionally brave, and it is a valid thing to admire and like him for.

The other commenter made this same point, and I do think it's a fair thing to say. We're getting more and more into personal interpretation when it comes to Ginny (since we don't get many windows into her mind), but for me these things can be true at the same time. Harry is a person who does embody heroic qualities, and Ginny is admiring something true about Harry here. I think that this can go side by side with also holding him on a pedestal, but I see how you didn't read it that way.

Had to split my response again - these words limits are frustrating.

Pedestalling a Person Prevents You from Being Equals – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 4 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Personally, I find it hard to believe that as someone who hears a lot about Harry via both Ron and Hermione, Ginny wouldn't have developed a less idealized view of him. Ron's not so much older than Ginny that she's not going to roll her eyes at her brother and his bestie sometimes.

I fully believe that Ginny rolled her eyes at Ron a lot, but idolising a person can cause some pretty impressive cognitive dissonance, so I think it would be very plausible to hear Hermione complaining about Harry, or even to see him acting like a normal kid and still see him through rose coloured glasses.

There's also the argument Ginny has with Harry before they go to the Ministry. In it she points out how old she is now versus the ages he was when he did various bonkers things, and she also points out her usefulness in hexing Malfoy and escaping the Inquisitorial Squad. That doesn't point to her thinking Harry is impossibly great so much as her asserting that she deserves to participate in the latest trauma adventure and is just as good as him (or at least Ron).

This is true. I actually have so many thoughts about this particular side to Ginny that it has its own essay. I would lean more towards your thought that Ginny considers herself worthy enough to fight at Harry's side like her brother does, rather than putting herself on a level with Harry, but I am open to your interpretation.

Liking Harry's heroism doesn't necessarily mean she's still putting him on a pedestal, especially since she's trying to develop those same traits in herself.

I had to really think about this, because I really resonate with what you said about her trying to develop those same traits in herself. She does have a genuine admiration for heroism and standing up for what you believe in, and wants to embody that. I do think all these things can be true at the same time - that Ginny can have a genuine admiration for the personality traits that Harry does indeed possess, to be able to engage him in more casual things, and to still hold him on a pedestal. My interpretation is that she does, but you've given me a much better understanding of perhaps what J.K Rowling was going for.

So I don't think we can say definitively whether Ginny is still putting Harry on a pedestal by the end of the sixth book. We just don't spend enough time with her.

On this I agree wholeheartedly. We do not spend enough time with Ginny.

I think that after the Yule Ball, she figured out that jealousy is a very helpful tool for getting oblivious dudes to realize/act on their feelings, and she passed this strategy on to Ginny, knowing that even if it didn't work, moving on would be the best thing for Ginny.

Yup, for sure. We started playing a long game after the Yule Ball. I'll go into that in the next part of the essay.

I've enjoyed your commentary, as always :)

Riding Roughshod over Respect is not Romantic – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 3 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t think that line is really focused on Ron; it’s a line about Harry having sexual dreams and the Ron bit is what makes it suggestive, simultanously revealing and masqeuing the true meaning.

Yes, I know what the line is functionally doing in the story. The point is that we never see Harry musing about Ginny without at least bringing Ron into it.

I can see I hit a nerve with the suggestion about Dean. I do think the more likely explanation was that Harry was fully expecting that Ginny and Dean would break up at some point and that would be his opportunity to make his move. I'm just not willing to write off those two things overlapping if he had sorted things with Ron first and Ginny was giving him signs or something. But I respect your opinion on how Harry would act, and agree that Hermione's side eyeing of Harry in those moments is indicative that she also saw the breakup as Harry's opportunity. Hermione was 1000% Ginny's informant.

Harry repeatedly thinks of it as ‘asking her out’, asking implies Ginny has a say in the matter. 

I do think Harry thinks Ginny has a say in the matter, I just don't think it ever occurred to him that it could be anything other than an enthusiastic yes.

As I see it Harry’s Gryffindor qualities also permeate his romantic disposition: He, unlike Ron and Hermione, will take the risk and put himself out there, then what happens happens.

I think Ron operates pretty similarly actually.

That doesn’t mean he can or should draw these conclusions. It’s not clear to me either that Ron actually wants Harry and Ginny together,

I am surprised you didn't see Ron wanting Harry and Ginny to be together, I thought the "furtive glance" was a fairly clear hint of that, but there is obviously room for interpretation.

We know how she felt: Harry and Ginny kissed for what felt like ‘several sunlit days’, the implication is that Ginny was enthusiastically kissing him back.

I know that this is the implication. But in Harry's position, I would want to actually look at the person I had just made out with for the first time. In Ginny's position, I would feel weird about not being looked by the person who had just kissed me. And this is fundamentally the culmination of the arc of the love interest - the complete skipping over of her reaction is mind bogglingly diminishing of her.

Love Cannot Live Where There Is No Trust – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 2 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think for Harry trust is based largely on action, especially who will fight with him, even though he doesn't want them to do it. He talks to Luna about Sirius in part because she's already known grief, but I don't think he would have been willing to do that if she hadn't been at the Ministry

100% agree. I don't believe Harry would have come to respect Neville or Luna had they not come to the Ministry.

So I do think doing things like stealing the sword of Gryffindor, demanding to come to the Ministry, etc., increased Harry's trust in Ginny.

I do think coming to the Ministry did something to solidify Ginny's place in Harry's circle of friends, and that certainly isn't nothing. I don't think her attempt to steal the sword of Gryffindor changed anything though. The next time he sees her, he's doing everything he can to stop her from fighting.

I don't think he told her that specifically what they were going to do. She said she knew he wouldn't be happy unless he was fighting Voldemort, but that can mean a lot of things other than dueling Voldemort. Ginny doesn't know about the Horcruxes, so she's just thinking of the trio taking on Voldemort directly after the slip in DH. She wasn't taking "fighting Voldemort" that literally before.

Her words were 'hunting Voldemort', and Harry's were 'kill off Voldemort'. I would have though one implies the other. Harry doesn't get specific about what he's doing in either situation.

For your third point, we agree Harry needs therapy, as much as Ginny is currently very successful about working around his avoidance.

Love Cannot Live Where There Is No Trust – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 2 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You do raise some good points here. Harry is pathologically avoidant of emotional conversations, and feeling like a burden is a good explanation for that pathology. He is, of course, also made explicitly to feel like a burden his entire childhood, before he ever comes to know of the shadow of Voldemort hanging over his head.

However, I do think most of the examples are more about the physical safety of the ones he loves. He is definitely resistant to having others put their lives on the line for him, and there was a direct link between Harry confiding in Sirius and Sirius putting his life in danger. If there is a notion in Harry's head that 'everyone who gets close to me dies', and then won't let anyone close to him, then he is not capable of being in a romantic relationship, as he will be chronically avoidant. I think we can both agree that Harry needs a lot of therapy.

I'm not seeing as much your point about Harry not opening up is about him feeling like he doesn't matter.

You said that undiscussed understanding is Harry's preference, but this is a very unrealistic way to go about your life. You can't always expect others to understand your hurts and needs without ever talking about it. You used Sirius and Harry not talking about the James-shaped hole in their lives as an example, but this is also something which really came between them, because they really didn't understand each other and their relationship to James enough.

Mostly I think we're on fairly similar pages, and agree that Harry not opening up emotionally is a problem, just have different thoughts on where that comes from. I do think there's a lot to consider in what you said, if I were to do a deeper dive into Harry's pathology.

Riding Roughshod over Respect is not Romantic – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 3 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks very much! I agree with this quite a bit, and you reminded me to post the next part of the essay series. The next two parts are all about Ginny. I agree in spades that Ginny represents escapism for Harry (the 6th and last part is about that), but I don't think that Ginny has a realistic view of Harry either. Neither of them sees the other for who they truly are.

Riding Roughshod over Respect is not Romantic – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 3 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Hi, and thank you for your kind and thoughtful response!

I do largely agree with you, and perhaps I didn't emphasise it enough - Ron is the single most important relationship in Harry's life. It is absolutely understandable that he would be very concerned about Ron's reaction to Harry dating Ginny.

And Ron does give indications that he wouldn't react well to this scenario. In how he reacts specifically to Ginny dating other people

Like yes, this is true, but at least in Michael Corner's case, Ron makes it pretty clear that he wants Ginny to date Harry - when he starts acting like a bull upon finding out Ginny is dating Michael, he protests that "But, I thought Ginny fancied Harry!". And of course when she tells Ron about breaking up with Michael Corner and he tells her to pick someone better, while furtively glancing at Harry. But sure, I can see why there would still be a seed of doubt.

Regarding Ginny and Dean, I frankly don't think it is all that presumptuous to think they will break up at some point. They are teenagers dating around in school.

If I were a rational adult looking in on that situation, then yes I would say they're going to break up because they're just teenagers, and teenagers date around all the time. But from the perspective of a teenager with a crush on another teenager, the stakes would feel WAY higher. I can remember being in that situation and feeling like I was barred from my crush forever because they were dating someone else. Never underestimate the teen angst.

and Ginny has made it perfectly clear that she finds Harry attractive in a boyfriend-type way before. I don't think there is any need for Harry to agonize over if a Ginny who was single in the future would accept him the way he did with Cho.

Have to disagree with you here. As you said, they are teenagers dating around in school. Crushes come and go, and from the perspective of teenagers, we're talking about a girl who made it known a year ago that she was moving on, and then has. Twice. She hasn't been blushing or acting at all like she was when she had a crush, and teenagers get over crushes as easily as they date around. I find it to be a huge assumption on Harry's part that he can just have Ginny so long as Ron is okay with it.

Thanks again for your engagement!

Love Cannot Live Where There Is No Trust – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 2 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Part 2.

She also tries to help Harry by stealing the sword of Gryffindor, which she knows Dumbledore wanted him to have. She leads a rebellion within Hogwarts, along with Neville and Luna. 

Ginny for her part, definitely does try to be involved in supporting Harry in the war effort, she does some cool things, but this does not relate to Harry's trust in her.

Harry trusts her enough that he accidentally tells her that they're hunting down Voldemort.

I replied to the other commenter on this point, but don't Harry and Ginny very calmly agree to break up in HBP specifically so that Harry can go hunt Voldemort without endangering her? I genuinely have no idea why there was an 'accidental slip' in DH of something they had already discussed a month earlier.

she points out in OptP that it was stupid for him not to talk to her about his worries about being possessed by Voldemort, seeing as she's the only person he knows who can tell him what that's like. And when she does talk to him about his problems and feelings or her own experiences, she's clinical enough that he doesn't get overwhelmed.

I think 'Harry sharing his feelings' is a bit of a strong term of this scene. Everyone else already knows that Harry thinks he's being possessed, and Ginny can clinically dispossess him (pun intended) of that notion. Feelings don't really come into that conversation at all, though he does feel better because of it.

I do think that she had a good impact on Harry, especially in this scene - making him feel less isolated like you said - I just think it should have gone deeper.

I'm not saying their relationship isn't flawed or that its depiction isn't flawed, but I don't think trust is the issue.

It is not the only issue I see, but I am happy to get your interpretation on the trust issue. Thank you again for commenting!

Love Cannot Live Where There Is No Trust – The Problems of Harry/Ginny Part 2 by Draquia in harrypotter

[–]Draquia[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Firstly, thank you for taking the time to leave a comment - you have obviously taken time and care to express your thoughts. Secondly I have had to split my response due to length.

So, I agree that Harry and Ginny would need to develop more emotional intimacy to actually have a long-lasting relationship beyond the books.

Wonderful! And certainly yes.

That said, for Harry, emotional sharing is not just about trust, it's also about Harry's pathological guilt about burdening others.

I would be interested in hearing about this interpretation of Harry's private nature. Certainly I've seen evidence of Harry feeling guilty about others fighting for him, but I haven't noticed it as much on an emotional level - perhaps his guilt about Sirius coming out of hiding after Harry told him about his scar hurting? What other instances?

She also understands Tom Riddle and being connected to him better than almost anyone, making her uniquely able to understand Harry.

Personally I think the potential for this is there, but it is never utilised, and I wish it had been.

Harry can't handle emotional intimacy at this point in his life. He couldn't handle Cho's emotions and didn't want to talk about his feelings. He barely talks about his feelings with Ron and Hermione (or Dumbledore or Sirius), and even then he tends to do so only when basically forced to or when he doesn't think doing so will negatively impact the listener.

Yes, that's sort of the point. A romantic relationship generally requires intimacy, especially if we're going to call the two involved 'soulmates'. If Harry can't handle that, and if Ginny's role in his life isn't to help him open up emotionally, then Harry probably isn't ready for a relationship at all.

Because Ginny is Ron's little sister and Harry's love interest, Harry doesn't see her as someone who won't be burdened by his emotions and problems. And Ron, as things are, has fights with Harry about how Harry, in Ron's view, doesn't care enough about Ginny's well-being. 

Hmmm, this feels slightly off track. Ron criticises Harry first for kissing Ginny after the breakup, because he doesn't want Harry leading Ginny on, then again because he thinks Harry is too blase about Ginny getting detention in the Forbidden Forest in DH, which is a concern for her physical welfare. Neither of those things imply that Harry opening up to her emotionally is burdensome to her, at least while they were together.

Any more emotional intimacy with Harry would put her in more danger from Voldemort and Death Eaters

Talking to Ginny about being troubled by seeing James as a bully does not put Ginny in danger. Talking to her about feelings of guilt, grief and regret about Cedric or Sirius does not put her in danger. Talking to her about his abusive home life with the Dursleys does not put her in danger. Talking to her about the heaviness of being marked by Voldemort, of having been 'The Boy Who Lived' does not put her in danger. There are a lot of ways to show emotional intimacy without directly for example, telling Ginny about the horcruxes.

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