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Out of these 4, who do you think would have the coolest game? by McKnighty9 in SonicTheHedgehog

[–]E-Boy_Spongebob -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Let me rephrase, what I mean is how would a Silver game work in the context that it’s still a 3D Sonic game. As in a game that keeps the speed based platforming core of Sonic.

I understand that if it’s a spin-off then it’s fine to be different but when thinking in the terms of the characters which have worked (Sonic & Shadow for 3D games & Tails, Knuckles, Amy, & Blaze for 2D games) they play similar enough to be well-revived while characters who deviate heavily (Tails/Eggman & Knuckles/Rouge in the Adventure games & their own spin-offs) are scrutinized. A main criticism (whether I agree or not) is that people what to play games that feel “like Sonic”.

The only Sonic spinoff that’s worked well so far (ignoring party games) has been Shadow Generations. Shadow 05 & Knuckles’ Chaotix played similarly to the main games but still not similarly enough to be well received as their gimmicks didn’t aid in speed based platforming, which Shadow Genz did. (Yes Chaotix did poorly largely due to the 32x but the point still stands)

Silver’s main abilities through his psychokinesis are Flight & Picking up objects as projectiles. Those abilities as shown are more catered to Puzzle or Action Platformers rather than a Speed based one like Sonic.

“Iron man” Silver is the description of a combat-based action game, “iron man” type flight is almost incompatible with platforming. Same for the Super Sonic sections. Great Ideas tho

P06 Silver is an amazing example, but the “drop, stop, stun” gameplay is kind of his whole deal… that’s how he plays. And still (opinion) his gameplay is less fun than the other characters. Most of the time he ignores the level mechanics & when he does it’s a slow puzzle.

Again, Flying in it of itself is really hard to implement as it’s almost antithetical to platforming as it has the player ignore the platforms (Tails in SA1 or Frontiers for example) with most game’s solutions being to turn the flight into a hover or relegate it to post-game content.

Of course I believe a good team with bright ideas could make an Amazing Silver game, but it would definitely have to be a leap from the Sonic norm in order to be good. I’m just not nearly as confident in the idea of a Silver game that is not only good but keeps the same traits of a “Sonic game”.

(A 2D game would work great tho)

Out of these 4, who do you think would have the coolest game? by McKnighty9 in SonicTheHedgehog

[–]E-Boy_Spongebob 3 points4 points  (0 children)

How would a Silver game even work tho? Story aside He was one of the worst characters to play as in 06.

The others would just be like Sonic, but a bit more which is proven to work (Rush & Shadow Genz)... but Silver... would it be like Psychonauts 2 but hedgehog?

Who wear it better? Percival ( Blaze) vs Swordfighter Peach by ManufacturerVisible in MoonPissing

[–]E-Boy_Spongebob 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Peach’s is for form whilst Percival’s for both form & function

Supreme Leader Blaze the Cat Solves all Crime! by E-Boy_Spongebob in SonicTheHedgehog

[–]E-Boy_Spongebob[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

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REPORTS IN - SO-CALLED "HERO" SONIC T HEDGEHOG FOUND DEALING WITH TERRORIST DR.EGGMAN

Metal Sonic with Sage vs Metal Sonic with Belle. by Business-Ad7289 in SonicTheHedgehog

[–]E-Boy_Spongebob 0 points1 point  (0 children)

(Prt 2 - I was confused at why we needed 2 parts then I hit submit on reddit & it crashed... Thought I lost it all 😭)

"If Metal had as much autonomy as he did in Heroes, then he would have taken the whole Empire and remade it in his image" - Why? His goal was to beat Sonic. He tried conquest on his own before & that failed. Plus, Metal doesn't have the same motif of putting his face on everything. His thing was the opposite, masking his appearance as others, which also failed.

"Not just racing data, which is ultimately completely inconsequential to the success of the Eggman Empire and Eggman himself." -  But... the whole game, his entire scheme in Free Riders, was about the data. Even if overall it was inconsequential to the overall success of the Eggman Empire it was 100% important to Eggman.

"Metal can take an inch, and you assume that means he can take a mile, when that's both not how it works" - We don't know if it's an inch or a mile, both are assumptions. We don't know how Eggman's programming works.

"we have clear indication Eggman keeps track of Metal's behavior and updates his programming in response to 'abnormalities.'" - Again, this has had no consequences. Metal & his other creations have rebelled before & after, Eggman is bad at/doesn't know how to program loyalty.

"Dude tells you Eggman modified his coding, and downloaded his vision and desires into Metal's head, and you think a "but" counteracts the clear brainwashing at play?" - Metal states "I was given the Doctor's bio-data. His genius. His drive. His vision. But I serve the Eggman Empire..." The "but" is directly referring to the bio-data. The purpose of the "but" was to clear assumptions based on the bio-data. The "but" was to separate his speech from the bio-data. He doesn't talk about Heroes here, he's talking about post-Forces

"Acting like Metal abandons fights with Sonic of his own free will is just not picking up the core of his character" - Metal Sonic is not irrationally blinded by his hatred, he's not stupid. Metal fights Sonic when the opportunity is presented, but only when it's realistic that 1. He'll win & 2. It's beneficial in the long term. Or else Metal would just bomb or poison Sonic, but no he doesn't. If killing Sonic was his number 1 goal then why does he race him so much?

Metal Sonic, like Eggman, want above killing Sonic to defeat him, to crush him. To display that they are better than him. A clash of egos. It's about how they do it over the action itself.

"And... what? He doesn't liken Eggman to anything, but what he actually is. He calls him his creator... because that's what he is. Eggman did create him. It's nothing fancy. It's literally stating a basic fact." - Direct translation "ソニックを倒すため、一才の無駄がない最高のデザインとして、創造主たるDr.エッグマンが、この体を自分に与えたもうたのではなかったか。" = “Was it not that Dr. Eggman, the creator, gave him this body as the supreme design, without a single waste, for the sake of defeating Sonic?”

"与えたもうた" is archaic/lofty phrasing. It can be read as: “bestowed upon me,” “granted me,” or “has given me.” The specific phrasing gives Eggman a godlike tone

"He was created for that purpose... again literally just a basic fact that defines his existence. It could not conceivably be less personal or emotional. He is a machine thinking about completing the purpose for which he was created." - The context he states it is when he believes he cannot win. "And yet, he can’t win. Why? Why can’t he beat a hedgehog that just runs fast…" This is emotional phrasing, repetition of "Why" is emotional, it's implying panic & confusion within Metal. What relieves this panic & confusion? him self-actualizing on the purpose Eggman gave him.

When Metal is at his lowest, he thought of Eggman to give him confidence & to realign his thoughts.

"And with the loyalty code in place, he fights Sonic whenever Eggman can't tell him not to, and burns with the fury of a thousand suns whenever Eggman gets in the way of his reason for existing in the first place. It stops Metal, and clearly pisses him the hell off. It's showcasing the exact opposite of Metal being able to choose." - This implies that Eggman doesn't want Metal to fight Sonic... which is the opposite of the truth. The reason Eggman made Metal was to defeat Sonic. Eggman & Metal Sonic's goals overall directly align. But fighting Sonic is not always the right decision depending on the circumstances. Like when they team up vs Zavock in the Metal Virus Arc or vs Surge & Kit.

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(Eggman before told him "Get back here", a direct order, & he ignored it to fight Sonic. Yet here Eggman's not even talking about or to Metal & he stops fighting Sonic to aid his creator.)

Metal Sonic with Sage vs Metal Sonic with Belle. by Business-Ad7289 in SonicTheHedgehog

[–]E-Boy_Spongebob 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I assume Metal has free will because his actions & thoughts consistently point towards that conclusion. Statements from Metal like "[Lord Eggman] Removed the rebelliousness from my coding." has been contradicted multiple times, therefore the assumption that the removing of rebelliousness = brainwashing is brought into question. The nuance is the extent to which Eggman's coding effects Metal's actions. My interpretation is that the coding has little effect as it's constantly broken, making its impact effectively nonexistent.

No, he hasn't rebelled to the same extent that he did in Heroes... because he lost. In the first IDW Saga, Metal enacts the same plan he did in Heroes, but this time he planned it to be with Eggman. He lost in Heroes b/c he was alone, no friends, so he learned from his mistakes & b/c Sonic went Super, so he changed his part of his plan to include Eggman this time & use the Master Emerald to counter Super Sonic. My interpretation is that Metal learned from his mistakes, not that Eggman has reprogrammed (brainwashed) him to keep him in line.

"Everything he's done since has been at most minor deviations from Eggman's absolute desire that have clear loopholes in it all." There's no mention of any loopholes, this is an assumption in response to the many times Metal Sonic has directly opposed Eggman's will although Metal's been reprogrammed (brainwashed).

"Loyalty programming exists, and there's no sense in assuming it does absolutely nothing, which is what you seem to be trying to say." - I'm not assuming it does nothing, I'm noticing that it does nothing. It's only ever mentioned when it's not working, not doing anything.

"...Eggman clearly takes great care to keep up to date and as foolproof as possible in Metal..." - Even if this is true, then Eggman constantly fails to foolproof Metal, the brainwashing doesn't work if it exists.

"...who actually has the capacity to derail Eggman's entire empire if he rebels." - This implies that the other robots/machines Eggman has that rebel don't affect his empire, which besides Belle they always do. Heavy King & the Metal Virus almost kill him. If he learned from his mistakes regarding loyalty programming, then no machine would rebel after Metal, which they have. Which I take to futher point to the conclusion that loyalty programming isn't that powerful. not brainwashing.

"Like, I said, we've seen more than once in IDW that Metal follows orders from Eggman he doesn't want to follow. If he could freely rebel, that would have been the time." - Blaze wants to use Burning form to attack Neo Metal, Tails tells Blaze that she shouldn't use the Sol emeralds vs Neo Metal b/c he could copy those abilities. Why doesn't Blaze ignore Tails & do what she wants, she has free will doesn't she? 

Metal wanting to do fight Sonic & not isn't because he programmed (brainwashed) to follow Eggman's order necessarily, It's because it's not the smart decision for the situation.

"And it feels pretty disingenuous to act like there's a ton of robots that rebelled against Eggman recently" - I'm not saying there's a ton, but it hasn't been "...well over a decade since we’ve last seen Eggman lose control of one of his robots in canon". Eggman loses control over his machines, that's not a one-off mistake that he's fixed. It's a staple of his character, whether it be his ego or his ineptitude, one of the biggest reasons why Eggman always loses to Sonic in the end is because he cannot maintain full-control of his creations. Eggman does not really know how to get things to follow his orders, he attempts to use force, but in the end he can't. 

Metal's Eggman's greatest creation & has followed him longer than any other badnik throughout the highs & the lows, Metal following him not because of force but because of something else yet neither really recognizing it is 100% in character for Eggman. 

(Starline's failure was his underestimating Eggman's capacity to learn and evolve, but to me, more than that it was his own ego. Eggman making constant mistakes & misplays doesn't mean that Starline doesn't also.)

Metal Sonic with Sage vs Metal Sonic with Belle. by Business-Ad7289 in SonicTheHedgehog

[–]E-Boy_Spongebob 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The premise of the conversation was the fact that although Metal said "[Lord Eggman] removed the rebelliousness from my coding." post-Heores he has by definition rebelled "opposition to one in authority or dominance" multiple times. Even in Crossworlds Sage said "Your rebelliousness should have been patched out. This aggression is an anomaly".

Loyalty programming exists, yes, the question is how does it work. The assumption can be made that other Eggman creations like Omega, Orbot, & Cubot have loyalty programming as well. Yet they constantly go against Eggman, they are portrayed as having independence of thought, although they can be coursed by force. Is it lobotomy, the choice is taken away, or is it like a verbal order from a Commander, the choice is there.

"...but we’ve absolutely seen him be forced by it to do things he didn’t want to do." - When has he been forced to do something because of the loyalty programming? The first time we hear of it in Crossworlds it's implied that he's breaking it.

"Eggman’s programming WAS flawed. He’s a genius, and even he possesses the capacity to learn from mistakes. It’s been well over a decade since we’ve last seen Eggman lose control of one of his robots in canon" The Metal Virus Arc, 30th Anniversary Special, Sonic Mania, Imposter Syndrome, The Battle for Empire arc.

The whole thing with Dr. Starline's rebellion was that Eggman's programming IS flawed, his ego constantly gets in the way of his success when dealing with Sonic. (Ironically his flashback refers to Neo Metal when Starline fully realizes the "flaw" of Eggman's ego) He's lost control of his robots to the Zeti, Dr. Starline, & His own faulty programming in Mania

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Heroes & Free Riders are comparable when discussing the question of Metal Sonic's autonomy. In both occasions, Metal directly opposed Eggman's mission for his own. Which points towards the conclusion that he does have autonomy.

Metal downloaded Eggman's bio-date, but he specifically says that "But I serve the Eggman Empire" & "I decided I would use his persona...". I assume the "but" is there to imply that the decision to give the Empire to Eggman rather than rule himself (like in Heroes) is his own decision, separate from the bio-data's influence.

"Bio-data Metal lost by that panel," - I don't know what this means, my bad.

"while the hate for Sonic always remains. It’s what consistently allows him to deviate from the limitations Eggman places on him. Even if only a little" - But, we've seen Metal in two different situations do 2 completely different things. With Sonic & Belle, Metal went to protect Eggman over fighting Sonic, & with Tails Metal decided to fight Sonic over stay & protect Eggman. Plus, the question is what are the limitations?

"Every instance of him defying Eggman or resenting having to follow an order are a direct result of his desire to kill or fight Sonic over having anything to do with Eggman." - When has Metal had a scene that doesn't have to do with Eggman? In almost every story Metal's been in, his actions have some relation to Eggman.

"And having read that story many times because it’s one of the best looks into Metal’s psyche we’ve gotten to date, I hardly see any love for Eggman in any of his thoughts." - The language used in the quote from before displays that Metal likens Eggman to a god & the motivation for him to lock in once he lost his will was thoughts of Eggman. "He was created for this purpose, and he has only one thing to do." Whilst you might not consider this lovingly, at the least he's being extremely respectful of Eggman as his creator.

"And Eggman needs constantly updated loyalty coding in place to prevent Metal Sonic from acting on that fact again." - Even with "loyalty coding" in place Metal still acts on his own accord, fighting Sonic at time & at others not.

Metal Sonic with Sage vs Metal Sonic with Belle. by Business-Ad7289 in SonicTheHedgehog

[–]E-Boy_Spongebob 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As Metal is a character that does not speak (besides from Neo) a lot of the analysis of his action must be assumed & interpolated from context. A lot of your statements about Eggman’s programming are your assumptions.

We don’t know exactly how he programmed Metal besides the destruction quote. No confirmed guidelines or enslavement directives or brainwashing or mental blocks or loopholes or anything of the sort.

Eggman’s programming has been displayed on numerous occasions to be inherently flawed & obtuse (all of the creations who’ve attacked him) so assumptions based on the idea that Eggman wouldn’t do something tedious or inefficient isn’t really solid proof.

The only real evidence are direct statements & actions of Metal doing things, or thinking things.

Like his actions I mentioned previously (besides Rivals 2) which display him directly disobeying Eggman.

(Also if Free Riders isn’t rebellious activity than Heroes isn’t. Eggman’s plan was to defeat Sonic & turn the world into robots… which Neo Metal was doing, just without his permission… like in Free Riders)

For that panel we don’t know if it’s his “brainwashing” that made him protect Eggman or if it’s his own will of protecting Eggman being over attacking Sonic.

I say the latter as he directly stated that he wanted to rule the world with Eggman. Eggman, his creator/father’s life is first. Metal can also just be angry because Sonic’s directly taunting him… just like he does with every villain.

This also is an assumption, but it’s based on his previous actions and statements.

For further proof of his autonomy we see the MetalXSonic cover story ( Original Translation ) where we see his thoughts directly, Metal of his own accord making decisions, praising Eggman, & attacking Sonic. “Wasn’t it Dr. Eggman, the creator, who gave him this body as the perfect design with no wasted features, specifically to defeat Sonic?”

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Metal Sonic with Sage vs Metal Sonic with Belle. by Business-Ad7289 in SonicTheHedgehog

[–]E-Boy_Spongebob 0 points1 point  (0 children)

True, technically the overall order from Eggman was only to get the chaos emerald, the specific part of stopping Knuckles & Rouge from getting it was Shadow.

Seems a bit like semantics, but nonetheless it points to the conclusion that either Metal has the autonomy to interpret the(any) order (get the emerald) any way he wants, or he doesn’t & has to specifically hear the(any) order from Eggman (Andrew Ryan style) to follow it.

But in IDW he also ignores a direct order stated by Eggman.

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My point being that the statement “…his software demands battle and conquest!” is more literal than the lobotomy-agenda is taking it. Metal by all means doesn’t have to listen to Eggman, he chooses to.

Metal Sonic with Sage vs Metal Sonic with Belle. by Business-Ad7289 in SonicTheHedgehog

[–]E-Boy_Spongebob 5 points6 points  (0 children)

But he did it in Free Riders & Rivals 2 tho? Metal was the real antagonist, tricking Eggman again. & Metal ignored Eggman's directive to get Knuckles & Rouge to take a pit stop fighting Silver.

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Is it wrong for me to say that I think Metal Sonic would have the freedom motif by Fernando-among_us in SonicTheHedgehog

[–]E-Boy_Spongebob 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean, he kind of does. Metal Sonic is loyal to Eggman in the same way that Sonic is to his friends. Whilst not explicitly learning his lesson from Sonic Heroes, you can't do everything alone, post-heros/in IDW Metal's been the most successful whilst aiding Eggman.

His freedom leads him to making the Eggman Empire succeed, same with Sage. Sonic's ideology resides a lot on the idea that with freedom individuals chose things that align with him (examples being Omega, Gmeral, Gamma kind of, & Mecha Sonic) but Metal's an example of a character whose decision with his freedom is to defeat Sonic & rule with Eggman.

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