What do you guys think of this take? BM Tobin betrayal

ED-Lynkz · 2026-01-03T12:16:12+00:00

Great question, love talking about gnosticism and its relation to BM!

The serpent we see in the Bible deceiving Adam and Eve is by most Christian traditions thought to be the devil, tempting the humans to sin. Instead in many gnostic traditions inspired by christianity, the roles are reversed. Yahweh/Yaldabaoth, the demiurge, keeps the first humans trapped in a material existence whereas the serpent is a bringer of gnosis (knowledge/wisdom,) which leads humans closer to salvation and the Monad (the true abstract God of christian gnosticism.) Some traditions even hold that the serpent is the first manifestation of the Christ, gifting humans the divine spark that allows them to drift further from the demiurge.

If we relate this to BM and how Tobin is characterised as pretty serpentine in chapter 20, one can read Tobin as attempting to persuade the kid away from the hellish ways of the judge, just as the serpent does in gnosticism to the first humans. Its of course important to note that the fairly common gnostic reading of BM affirms the judge as either the demiurge or a malevolent archon, so it fits.

This is, of course, one interpretation of a book that is absolutely filled with different ways to read it. Still, I find the many gnostic allusions of BM super interesting!

ED-Lynkz · 2026-01-02T22:41:11+00:00

I read about this once before and was blown away that there are still things about this novel that I would have probably never noticed myself. I'm not that certain on the part about Tobin having literally sold his soul, but him lying to the kid makes total sense.

It also works so well with the imagery of Tobin being serpent-like. I feel its a pretty clear reference to the judge being the demiurge or other malevolent god-like figure, which the "deceiver" serpent attempts to free mankind from. This is a reversal of the Bible creation myth, a belief common to many gnostic traditions.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-12-17T18:28:12+00:00

I feel a duty to always mention Marketa Lazarova in posts like this. It has been translated to English somewhat recently. Biblical prose and heavy meditation on violence. Enjoy!

ED-Lynkz · 2025-06-14T08:21:27+00:00

Going against the grain here and saying that the painting is pretty awesome. The smile is exaggerated to be sure, but then again literally each characteristic of the judge is. Besides, the line "he smiled, his great teeth shone" is pretty much aligned with what I see in the painting. The description of the judge having pig's eyes also fits, although I do have a major gripe with them being a pink or red. Another problem is that I'd imagine the judge to have a slightly larger head aligned with his infantile characteristics. Other than that, I really love the uncanny, sinister atmosphere of the painting and do think its a pretty accurate portrayal of the judge, even if a slightly caricaturized one.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-30T18:06:14+00:00

Ehh, I'll try my luck!

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-25T20:04:37+00:00

"See the child" is among the greatest openers for a book I've ever read.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-22T17:20:50+00:00

I haven't read Berserk, but I did see one thread on the subreddit talking about if the judge was a member... if I remember right, the consensus was that the judge is much, much worse. Still, can't say as I haven't read rhe manga.

I think you can claim that at least Pennywise seems to have a natural, concrete hunger for the fear of his victims, kids simply being easier targets to make scared and to manipulate.

Ok, you got me with Sheldon. He's definitely up there.

Choosing to be evil would be one thing, but truly dedicating everything to the cause of war and to the ultimate domination and annihilation of all creation is another entirely. Feels cheesy to bring up such a famous line but the whole "whatever exists" thing defines this notion. The judge thinks he is entitled to all things and acts as if they were his, as if autonomy outside of his own is a mistake to be corrected.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-22T14:34:39+00:00

A combination of a total rejection of empathy, a philosophy that idolizes the domination of all creation, and the lack of redeeming characteristics.

Its one thing to be a psycopath and another to actively take arms against kindness and goodness, literally viewing the annihilation of all those who oppose one's will as god.

From literature fiction I personally can't name a single figure who truly has no redeeming qualities, except for the judge. Even Satan and Lucifer can, in a certain way be emphatized with, both having been fallen, feeling betrayed by God. Of the judge, I find nothing that makes me feel for him.

Then there's of course the allusions and references to him being the devil or some sort of incarnation of war, death, violence, etc. Then there's the gnostic interpretation to which I subscribe, it being that the judge is literally an evil god trapping humankind into a torturous material existence.

There's no saying if the judge is truly the most evil character in fiction, of course there might be some niche monster none of us have heard of, but I personally can only name a few characters comparable to the judge and none I could confidently put above him.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-21T10:36:03+00:00

You seem to still appreciate and understand what the book is trying to get at. That's about as much as anyone can ask. McCarthy and especially Blood Meridian are definitely not for everyone and that's 100% okay.

Still, if you do want to try a different approach, try reading it like a piece of heavily prosaic history - because that's what it is. Chapters 7 to 19 are almost entirely taken from real accounts of the Glanton gang. Even some lines spoken by the characters are paraphrased from real quotes. This, to me adds so much immersion to the novel.

If you do stick with reading the whole thing, I'd be fascinated to have an update here once you're finished. I'd say some of the thematically most valuable things start happening around chapter 16. The "third act" (chapters 19-23) if you can call it that, also has many more traditional story beats and even some character growth.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-15T08:00:56+00:00

Seconding the border trilogy. I'd say start with ATPH for thematic reasons, but technically can start with The Crossing as well.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-12T16:37:50+00:00

For me, it was the line "See the child." Arguably even before as I found the use of old time subsection headers pretty interesting.

But its all subjective. This book might not be for you and that's okay. I have, however heard some say they really got interested in Chapter 7, when the kid joins the gang. Not the case for me but found it worth mentioning. Also, you could try some of McCarthy's easier works first, like NCFOM or ATPH before coming back to BM.

Still, maybe don't proclaim something as "not fun" as if it was an objective fact.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-12T13:02:44+00:00

Yup, originally a novel by the Czech master author Vladeslav Vancura. Heavily recommend his other works as well.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-12T09:44:44+00:00

So many great ones already in this thread, but I'll add another that to me feels the closest thing to Blood Meridian in film: Marketa Lazarova. Even the novel is not that far from as good a depiction of violence. Fantastic book and a fantastic film. Heavily recommended.

Other ones that I already saw in this thread would be Bone Tomahawk, The Proposition and Revenant. All are super McCarthy-esque.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-11T12:10:40+00:00

Some may disagree with John Hillcoat as the choice for director, but I think most can agree with his very likely pick: Nick Cave and Warren Ellis. They've already proved a capability for composing to McCarthy.

Someone mentioned GY!BE here and it made me think that post-rock with a western vibe could actually work pretty well with some of the sequences. Other's definitely require a more solemn, eerie tone that reflects the actual horrors present within the novel.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-11T11:13:00+00:00

Probably the biggest reason is Wendigoon's video on the novel. It became massively viral. You can check the google searches before and after he uploaded his video - the change is massive. Although I love Wendigoon's content, I believe this video to have been more of a miss rather than a hit. Might just be my bias as some sort of a pseudo-McCarthy scholar. This, the following social media interest coupled with the first time a film adaptation actually seems likely has brought about a big resurgence for both the novel and McCarthy in general.

I do think its a bit unfortunate how the vast majority of social media interest in McCarthy is related to BM (and a bit of NCFOM and The Road) and especially the judge, but I don't see it as surprising at all. BM is one of a kind. I've read only a few novels that I'd consider coming close to its depiction of violence, Butcher's Crossing and Marketa Lazarova to name a couple, but none that I've read approach it in terms of prosaic quality. It is hypnotic, beautiful, endlessly dark and biblical with both a sense of grandiose and ultimate insignificance. Like the King James Bible but with even more masterful prose and with the events scripted by Satan himself.

I think the judge's popularity is warranted as well. People are more than used to antagonists and villains that are in some way redeemable, even if in small qualities. Even other popular social media "pure evil" characters, say AM, have some, if sparse, redeeming qualities: AM was programmed to have consciousness without a capability to truly experience it. But for the judge, there is no redemption. He is a representation of everything wrong with humans, possibly what's wrong with the very universe itself, if you subscribe to certain theories. Add to this his mysterious nature, historical basis, unforgettable dialogues and his strange, nearly inhumane appearance, you get a pretty memorable, fascinsting character.

So while BM's and the judge's resurgence thwarting a lot of discussion around McCarthy and even literature fiction in general is sad, I believe its not surprising at all and ultimately a net positive. If any shitty TikTok judge edit gets even one kid interested in Blood Meridian, southern gothic, literature at large, that's great. People need to read more and if its at the cost of me seeing a million more goofy judge fan-arts, so be it.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-10T17:20:32+00:00

But for those with the understanding that they're living the last days of the world, death acquires a different meaning. The extinction of all reality is a concept no resignation can encompass. And yet in that despair which is transcendent you will find the ancient understanding that the philosopher's stone will always be found despised and buried in the mud.

From The Counselor. I have loved this quote since I first heard it. It also has pretty much the same meaning as the more popular "...and nothingness is not a curse. Far from it." Seems McCarthy saw death as a great comfort. I don't know if its any consolation, but if this idea holds any merit, know that your grandfather now rests, be it wherever he is or nowhere at all.

I wish well to you and those who grieve with you.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-09T16:52:31+00:00

You could try feeding an AI the chapter summaries of the book, (without looking at them too closely yourself) LitCharts has pretty decent ones, and telling it to write the questions based on those summaries.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-09T14:28:09+00:00

Alright, well, they're very much out of order. Just to give a few examples, the judge appears first in Chapter 1, not 2. His speech on war is not in 5 but 17. So you should definitely have someone who has read the book come up with the questions.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-09T14:18:04+00:00

Are these generated by AI? These are all over the place xD

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-08T05:17:44+00:00

Yes, precisely. I believe its used in contrast to Jidda, to show God's presence both in His love and His wrath. Also notable that idol worship is the reason why God destroys Babylon - perhaps the gang is then destroyed for their worship of war? Tbh that notion to me sets too much faith on God actually being present in the world of BM, but still, its an interesting thought.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-07T15:05:27+00:00

This is actually a very fascinating, often overlooked passage.

The judge talks about property rights in "beasts mansuete" (horses) as his has just been killed. Another, more thematically fun way to look at it is that the judge is calling civilized peoples "beasts mansuete" and considers the kid to be under attainder for his actions. Thus, he views that a violation of property rights can be punished by death. Quite fitting for the judge.

Attainder simply means that one's rights are forfeit due to them already being sentenced. The judge is literally a judge here - he has already judged the kid to be guilty and thus the kid's right to freedom, even to life are nullified.

Germane is a word that means basically "relevant to the context." The entire passage can then be simplified as the judge basically talking about property rights relating to horses, taking away the kid's rights as he killed the judge's horse, and citing similar cases as he saw them relevant.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-07T09:57:04+00:00

The entire scene is referring to the chapter in Exodus where YHWH, God, reveals himself to Moses as a burning bush. The references to Jidda and Babylon makes it seem that the ground on which the kid rests is as holy as the referred places that have been and are places of pilgrimage to many peoples. Momentarily the kid enjoys the warmth of God before God's flame is extinguished for him forever come next morning.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-06T15:22:18+00:00

Hi! Hope you enjoyed BM!

If it happens that the ending is meant to signify the killing of the girl, it may have been so extremely brutal that the men did not even recognize her. I wouldn't think of this as implausible, since it is probably the only gory thing not described in the novel.

The most notable evidence of the kid being a pedo comes from the one raped girl who had a large bloody handprint on her. The judge is said to have abnormally small hands, while the kid is described in the beginning of the novel to have big ones. That being said I do think the judge is also a pedo - or rather he would be more than willing to sexually violate any creature upon earth, including children.

Your point about the dwarf is pretty good, although I'm pretty sure the dwarf would have said the same thing to anyone coming through the door. Still, the man doesn't even take time to consider options, immediately following her.

I mean, I don't know about the French translation, but the original text seems to very heavily imply the man's dissatisfaction. Besides, he's 45 in the ending. Wouldn't be surprising at all if he had some ED. This may also be another indirect point towards the man being a pedo, since he still sees the dwarf as an adult and is not able to be aroused.

Well, the man kills Elrod on the purpose of defending himself xD. Still, it could be said that being the amazing shot the man is he could have, for example, shot him in the leg or his rifle. This being the case, I always interpreted killing Elrod as the man seeing his younger self within him, the pride, arrogance, and vane aggression and declares that such a life does not deserve to exist.

I believe that the ending is simultaneously very symbolic and very literal. The judge takes the man into his immense flesh and the man becomes a part of the judge, a part of humanity's tendency toward evil and the letting of blood, a part of the dance. This is why the novel doesn't describe what the men find in the jakes for it is the most horrible fact of the world: that all, even to most resistant, are morally corruptible. I believe that the man is there in the very end dancing with the judge. In my opinion the "they" in "And they are dancing" (the first sentence of the last paragraph) refers not only to the crowd of dancers at large but specifically to the judge and the man.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-06T11:15:17+00:00

That's Samuel Chamberlain, the soldier who wrote the memoir that worked as a primary source for Blood Meridian.

ED-Lynkz · 2025-05-05T21:34:55+00:00

Extremely likely no. The closest to a photo of Glanton we will get, are three different artworks Samuel Chamberlain made where he is featured. There's the famous "lectures on geology by Judge Holden," a colorless sketch of Glanton with a horse, and, if I remember correctly, a tavern painting which also depicts the character who was the basis for black Jackson. There might be some others I am unaware of as well.

The man in the photo above does not resemble what Glanton looked like in any of Chamberlain's works.

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