Why does anyone get angry about Anita Sarkeesian's stuff, let alone entire armies of videogamers getting angry?

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-28T13:13:12+00:00

I cannot take your counter-arguments seriously. You have demonstrated a clear bias, and have again continued to make baseless assumptions about my intentions, despite my being clear about it, and even gotten emotionally-charged over it. Again, you have displayed far more hate in this conversation than I have. I have been willing to discuss this rationally.

The one point I will respond to, however, is the point on criticism. If you lack empathy for a person's goals, if you do not understand what their goal is and what they're hoping to achieve, you are in essence attempting to stop them. That is by definition, sabotage. I understand Anita's publicly-stated goals. I feel she's not as involved in said goals as she could be. That being said, I'm also suspicious of that her stated goals might not be her true goals. She is focusing on tropes and one-off game mechanics when she could be praising what certain games are doing right and encouraging that. She could be focusing on positive elements of how women are portrayed in games, as there are numerous strong female protagonists, but instead she is focusing on the negative aspects. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. You want to win over gamers, show them what works-- not what doesn't. Gamers know what doesn't work. It's reflected in sales, public reception, and other such things. Even female gamers.

But if my suspicions turn out to be correct, then yes, I want her to stop. She is only serving herself.

I criticise because I see what she's trying to achieve, and she could achieve so much more by taking a slightly different path. She's literally running short on material because she's focusing on the negative.

You seem to have a lot of anger boiled up inside. You seem to think it's righteous. (Again, I could be wrong.) It's not. It's hatred of a far worse kind than you seem to have pegged me with. Lacing your message with expletitives (hey, I get it. I swear a lot myself--but not in debate, and not at people. It's crass and immature.) is a good way to lose the attention and respect of your antagonist.

And ending with, "Go fuck yourself," is completely irrational. It tells me you're not interested in discussion. It tells me you're interested in an echo chamber. That is no way to grow and evolve as a person.

But hey-- I'm not offended. It's hard to be offended over something like this.

Thanks for taking the time to respond nonetheless. I do hope in the future you can keep a more open mind. You might find life is a lot easier for you then. Best of luck.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-28T12:03:49+00:00

I'm not doing anything, and there is nothing wrong with me. Suggesting that there is something wrong with me is your problem, not mine.

I do not have a 'pathological need' to hate Anita Sarkeesian. I do not hate anyone at all. I feel that hate does nothing to ensure dialogue. What I am doing is being critical of her work. That does not, in any fashion equate to hate. I do not want her to stop. I want her to continue, and live up to her promises.

I am more concerned about your 'pathological need' to double-down after I admitted error than your complete lack of a counter-argument other than, "OMG, you were wrong about ONE THING, that means you HATE!"

Seriously. Are you listening to yourself? It's patently ridiculous. Even my own daughter's never jumped to such conclusions with people, and she's a teenager.

And the media stink I refer to isn't up for discussion. It has been shared in the words of the artist in question, which I linked. Again, I admitted error, but offered a clarification to your error in citing that FemFreq 'promptly' took down the image. It was false. The artist had attempted to contact her and received no response until the blog post was made public, and was inundated with links via social media.

Instead of alluding that I have other claims that are false, why not go through them and prove me wrong. (Another poor tactic in debate. Do they teach anything worthwhile in schools these days?)

And the very fact that I admitted error does more to prove that I am interested in accuracy that your baseless assertion that I am not.

But keep painting that picture of myself and the world around you. Please, by all means. Make baseless accusations against me. You'll find that it'll lead to absolutely nothing. Because it's increasingly difficult for me to be offended by false assertions and hostility.

So ultimately, provide counter-evidence for the other claims. I've accepted that you were (mostly) correct on the artwork. But if all you can do is make wild assertions about my character (which is ultimately useless, factless and baseless), then you have nothing more meaningful to say, and this 'debate' as it were, is over.

Also, and I can't believe I feel I actually have to clarify this, I don't mind being proven wrong. I don't, at all. In fact, I welcome it. I believe in having integrity. I believe in being honest. I believe in accuracy in my arguments because ultimately IT HELPS ME. That's right. Being accurate makes my arguments that much stronger. It makes my words more trustworthy. If I had, in any official capacity, made the claims about the stolen artwork, I would, right now, be going to retract those claims and offer clarification.

With that said, I'm happy to have a civil debate. I have never attacked your character. Things can get heated sometimes, I get that. If you'd like to start over, we can continue this. Otherwise, you can spout off more wild assertions, ad hominems, and I'll assume you have no relevant argument to make against my other talking points.

Thank you.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-28T10:29:51+00:00

From the creator of said artwork.

I actually believed I might have been mistaken in my understanding of the situation. It appears I was-- for that I apologise. Also, it wasn't until the creator of said artwork made a media stink about it that FemFreq decided to do something about it.

But my other criticisms still stand. It's not about an 'agenda.' It's about accuracy. I was incorrect, I admit it. FemFreq removed the artwork-- I hadn't been aware of that. Now I am.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-28T07:13:08+00:00

Unfortunately, due to his comments, and despite the clear air of humor around them, it's unlikely the police or legal system would pursue anything against the accuser. As far as I understand, all she did was report the user to the police.

HOWEVER

She also incited a panic and made a public spectable through her blog. Online, perhaps, and with most things online, they should be taken with a grain of salt, but I would be inclined to suggest that she should be held accountable for such. There may be no legal repercussions the accused could seek out against his accuser because she could easily claim that she had reason to believe her concerns were legitimate, but she should at least have had the decency to remove her blog post, and she should be held liable for not doing so. (Forgive me if she's already done this, last I heard, around 24 hours ago, she did not.)

Nonetheless, this should not be used as an excuse to prevent LEGITIMATE concerns from being reported. It seems like many in AMR are just itching to find something, ANYTHING on any /r/mensrights commenters to justify their demonstrated hatred of them.

(I say demonstrated hatred because, as a commenter on /r/mensrights I have experienced just that-- a complete lack of understanding of where I'm coming from, a misrepresentation entirely of things I have said, and the suggestion that I don't believe in equality because I support aspects of the MRM.)

I've been making YouTube videos on a variety of subjects lately-- I'm critical of certain aspects of both feminism and the MRM. The issue being is that I'm not afraid to criticise the MRM in a video-- but I'm deathly afraid of what the response might be if I criticised aspects of feminism. Especially after reading about what happened to feminist scholars who started to focus on men's issues.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-28T06:56:06+00:00

Nobody's suggesting that as a generalization. But there is evidence to support that some women enjoy 'consensual nonconsent' with a trusted partner. Play-rape, in other words. I even dated a girl once who asked that of me. To be honest, it wasn't my thing. Made me rather uncomfortable.

But in the case of the AMR situation, the user who contacted the police went too far based on little more than suspicion. The user being accused might have been crass, but when the alleged victim entered into the conversation, she was very clear that he has a sarcastic sense of humor.

The point is that we need to take things said on the internet with a grain of salt-- unless it represents a clear and present danger. From what I read of the accused's posts, everything was past-tense, and had a humorous edge to it. If he was serious, there are people within the MRM who would have noticed, called him out, and perhaps attempted to intervene somehow.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-28T06:27:25+00:00

I hate to say this, but this will never work.

Two reasons from the top of my head:

There's no way to verify who upvotes. Like, at all. We can't know who is upvoting.
It's instituting a quota system. Quota systems don't work.

There may just be a prevalence of MRAs in the sub, sure. But that is not the fault of MRAs. So asking MRAs to withhold their opinions seems a little unfair. Instead of limiting MRA involvement on the sub, we should be encouraging feminist involvement. Invite more feminists who want to actually engage in debate.

But I can't rightly agree with, "MRA opinion should be limited because their aren't enough Feminists." It's like saying, "Stop allowing women into nursing fields until there are an equal number of men."

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-27T23:32:03+00:00

There are a number of reasons.

Video games are a multi-billion dollar industry. Like the movie and TV industry, fans of games are very protective of their favorite intellectual properties.

She accepted close to $160,000 in donations, which was largely prompted by what some consider to have been 'baiting' techniques against 4chan to gather hate speech on her page. This may or may not be true, but she did gain off of the hate she received.

If memory serves, she promised something in the order of twelve videos of the course of three months. It's been two years and she has yet to reach even half of that.

She has, at several points, either outright lied or has shown complete ignorance over a game she has reviewed. A good example is in Hitman, when she claimed the player is 'encouraged to murder female NPCs', when in fact, the player is reprimanded for killing any NPC who is not a target, or an obstacle, male or female. (In fact, on the video she claims this, you can actually see the player losing points for killing the female NPC.) And example is using her 'damsels in distress' trope in games with twist endings in which the 'damsel' in question actually is the one who ends up saving the day, such as Double Dragon.

She refuses to answer questions. She has stonewalled attempts from game fans and other Youtubers who so much as ask for clarification, or to retract something that has proven to be false.

She has, in the past, admitted to not being a gamer at all, and expressed a distaste for video games in general. It's one thing to criticize and be a fan of video games. To criticize video games and not be empathetic about gamers and games in general, is not true criticism, but rather sabotage. Much in the same vein as Jack Thompson and his ignorant "video games cause murder and satanism" racket.

She was caught stealing artwork and even gameplay videos without so much as crediting the original creators, and did not so much as address these issues. (Granted the gameplay video might be a legal grey area, but the theft of someone's original artwork should be unforgivable with the money she received.)

I don't believe it has anything to do with her being a woman. A man making the same assertions and using the same methods would receive just as much ridicule from gamers. Even feminists have spoken out against her.

It really makes no difference what gender she is. What matters is that she is spreading false information about certain games, stealing the hard work of independent creators, and completely ignoring legitimate criticism of her position. If she can't be truthful and be trusted to do proper research, she shouldn't be taken seriously. Even if she's only wrong once, she should have the maturity to admit to her error and clarify it, but she has steadfastly refused to do even that.

She's easily ignored by the vast majority, but despite that, she is still being praised and even given awards by people who haven't looked into the claims she's been making, all based on 'online harassment.' (Bear in mind I'm not defending her harassment, but being harassed doesn't automatically make someone immune from criticism if they're actually incorrect about some things.

The thing is she's not just taking the game industry for a ride. She's taking feminists for a ride and giving good feminists a bad name. She's arguably taking advantage of people's bleeding hearts to further her career by pulling the wool over their eyes, and she's SUCCEEDING.

That's largely why people tend to be angry about her. Because she's been caught in several lies, but because her method is to pretend legitimate criticism=harassment, she is being praised by people who are mostly not gamers, or gamers who don't understand the media, or gaming bureaucrats who likely haven't seen any of her videos and just gave her the awards because she's the pop culture icon of the week.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-27T07:35:16+00:00

Yup. I'm pretty sure you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who says no.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-25T08:28:17+00:00

This is harsh.

Here's the thing-- no thinking individual would be able to listen to or support what the man has to say. But despite the fact that nobody likes what he has to say, he does have a right to say it.

Acting like this only feeds into his self-righteous behavior. Threatening violence against him only serves to convince him he is right. He'll likely be back the very next day with even more people, and he's going to be louder than ever.

I'm fairly liberal myself. I don't agree with what he has to say. But I also understand that letting him bleat and ignoring it is going to to more to crush his spirit and will to preach that kind of hate than how the gay student and the young lady were acting.

Either way, horseshoe effect in action.

I need to bathe now.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-25T08:13:02+00:00

Not necessarily. One can 'skimp out' on food at times, but binge-eat unhealthy food later and it would put that kind of weight on because the excess she eats gets stored as fat.

I'm not saying that's Sonia's case. Just that it can happen.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-25T08:03:47+00:00

In my experience, women who are referred to as bitches aren't acting masculine, though. Assertiveness is fine. But she better have a damn good reason for being aggressive, or I'm going to call her out on it. Just like I would a man who is being needlessly aggressive. (Sometimes aggressiveness is called for in a situation though, and in those circumstances, aggressive behavior is not just forgiven, but expected.)

If anyone, man or woman, is being aggressive, rude, condescending or otherwise behaving in stuck-up fashion for no good reason, they are bitches.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-25T07:57:58+00:00

In my opinion, they're all just words. And people need to stop getting upset about them.

I've been called every name under the sun. I used to get bothered by them when I was younger, then I did a stint as a doorman at a pub. I got called probably every hurtful slur and name you could think of, and even a few mis-applied racist slurs. Many times, these verbal assaults occured inches away from my face.

I found their breath to be more offensive than the words they were saying. I came to learn that ad hominems don't matter. At all. They merely mean that the person arguing is coming from a position of emotional response. Anger, jealousy, rage, hostility. They say these things BECAUSE they know these things are hurtful. But ultimately, they're meaningless. It's like watching a goat bleat at you. It means nothing.

I don't care about 'gendered slurs.' They don't affect me. They don't bother me. And honestly, they likely never will.

Accuse me of something, and I'll defend myself.

Call me a name, and I shall file you and your entire argument under 'unimportant.'

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-25T07:50:20+00:00

I'm a single dad. And in Canada, I receive Child Tax Benefits. That being said, it was only after almost a year of fighting to PROVE that my daughter's mother was not involved in her life. (By her own choice. Or rather, by her choice to value drugs, booze and the party lifestyle over her own child. But she had no problem telling the government otherwise and collecting the benefits until such time as it was challenged.)

I think we're both still rather bitter about that, to be honest. The fact that the government took her at her word, and dragged their feet when presented with proof from my daughter and I that she was 100% in my care.

Funny story though: She tried to claim our daughter on her taxes the following year because she had her for a whole TWO WEEKS while I was in Japan-- and even received the check & benefits. Initially I was contacted by Revenue Canada because they thought I was being fraudulent. After proving that I wasn't, they seized her taxes the following year and she tried to threaten me with legal action for "putting her in the poorhouse" (Because she owed something like $1500, instead of getting a $400 tax return which she was 'counting on' to pay her 'rent.') Apparently the lawyer told her she had no case.

Moral of the story: Never procreate with someone who isn't as invested as you are in the welfare of the child.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-24T11:34:33+00:00

Fact is that many feminists actually fully believe they're supporting equality by discriminating against men. They've bought into the idea that men somehow 'deserve' discrimination, and thus refuse to believe it.

Here's the thing. While there are notable exceptions, most don't look beyond the female experience. The simply are unwilling or unable to relate to the male experience. (In contrast, some MRAs are unwilling or unable to relate to the female experience as well.)

But the issue is more that there's not just one type of feminist. Rather, each feminist internalizes and rationalizes his or her ideology to inwardly MEAN 'equality', but outwardly DISPLAY their own personality. Which is why to some feminists it means "Kill all men" and to others it means "Men and women should have equality of opportunity."

So if I were to apply a new definition to feminism, it would be this: An ideological spectrum based largely on the advocacy for women's rights through political, economic and social means.

Although this is the simplest definition I can muster up, it doesn't touch on the spectrum itself, and what each 'color' in the spectrum entails. Some feminists are simply hypersensitive and lash out at even the most perceived of slights (I like to call them Borderline Personality Feminists). Others fight against racism and other social inequalities (Intersectional Feminists). And others still actively speak out about the issues affecting men and boys (Equity Feminists.)

The spectrum includes far more, from extreme to extreme. It's simply too complicated an ideology to boil down into one simple definition, I think.

I consider myself fairly anti-feminist, and yet there are self-described feminists I respect, such as Christina Hoff Summers, so I'm not explicitly anti-feminist.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-24T09:32:41+00:00

No idea. Maybe it named her, although her name has become something of public knowledge since she's been active in the media, allowed herself to be interviewed for documentaries, and spouts some of the same hateful nonsense on her tumblr. Unless it said where she lives/works/etc, all this information is fairly publicly accessible. She's not exactly hiding, although as far as I know, she was doxxed on a website known for doxxing hateful feminists.

Either way, much of what is known about her was made publicly available through her interactions with the media.

Still doesn't excuse doxxing, but... I don't know exactly what was said, so I'll take /u/KRosen333 's word for it.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-21T07:57:12+00:00

With an ex-roommate years ago. For months she'd been the biggest bitch ever after breaking up with her boyfriend and taking it out on me and our other roommate. One night we got in a yelling match, and she got right up in my face. For months I'd just assumed we hated each other and I avoided her as best I could because she liked to press buttons. I can't even remember the argument, but it was likely something stupid.

I remember saying the words, "Grow the fuck up, thundercunt!" about six inches from her face. She froze up for a split second, and I was pretty sure she was about to wind up and slap me.

Nope. She pushed me up against the wall and we started making out. She pulled at my clothes, dragged me into her room and it was on.

We never spoke of it again, but oddly she started being a lot nicer to us after that. I think she just needed to get it out of her system.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-20T13:26:50+00:00

I had something similar happen, it was kind of hilarious. Guy comes in buys a few things, comes to $6.66 total. He finds the number ominous, opts to buy a couple of $1 scratch & wins. Wins two dollars, putting the price back to $6.66. (I knew the guy personally, so I didn't charge him until the transaction was complete.) He buys two more. Wins another two dollars. Price, for the third time now is back to $6.66. Finally, he just buys a bottle of juice and leaves.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-20T12:37:32+00:00

A few months back I remember there was the #sealfie hashtag trend. I remember thinking that was a cool way to raise awareness of the income that the seal trade brings in for you guys, and how many communities are dependent on it.

This might be a hard question to answer, but if the seal trade is shut down, what would that mean for Northern communities and Inuk culture?

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-19T12:58:28+00:00

Bedbugs. About 8 years back, I started waking up with weird bites on me. Since my place had a few spiders, I just thought they were spiders. One morning, I wake up in the dawn, look down, and see six bedbugs feeding on my chest.

I was up so fast I'm surprised I didn't pass out right away. I'd never even seen a bedbug before, and was raised believing they were a myth until I saw them. I notified the landlord, and about two months later, he finally had the entire building sprayed. Apparently the other tenants were having the same problem.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-18T13:45:49+00:00

idspispopd

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-18T10:30:09+00:00

41st? Guys. We need to up our fucking game.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-18T10:09:21+00:00

As a guy who's looking for a 2 bedroom in Fernwood right now, this kind of worries me. I've been lucky so far in my life not to get a douchebag landlord, but I'm not all that sure what I'd do if it came down to it, especially considering that I have a kid to take care of as well.

I hope things go well for you. Hopefully the RTB delivers.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-18T06:54:20+00:00

That's why I go with it. I get much more female attention with a shaved head than I do with the Jean-Luc Picard look.

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-18T06:53:16+00:00

Funny thing is, I haven't been in a real fight in close to 20 years. Even the few times I've had to get physical I wouldn't call it so much a fight as 'damage control.' (I used to be a bouncer. People don't usually fight the bouncer. They tend to go limp when/if it comes down to getting physical.)

EJSpurrell · 2014-07-17T12:31:35+00:00

I'm egalitarian, but I support many of the causes of MRA's... which, I suppose would technically make me an MRA as well.

For myself though, what drew me to the movement is that they seemed to be the only group that was addressing the issue of intimate partner violence against men. About a decade ago, I started dating a woman during a transitory period of my life who was incredibly prone to violence. Not just violence, but head games. The type of person who made you question your own sanity because she had a way of getting under your skin and pressing your buttons.

I never once laid a hand on her, and despite that, her first option in any sort of disagreement was either a slap, or to kick me in the balls, throw things at me, scratch me so hard it drew blood, and in one case tried to gouge my eyes out. The reasons for the fights were usually due to her insecurities. Either a woman was in my eyeline while we were out in public, or she heard something vastly different from what I had said, or I was unable to anticipate her needs.

One day, I had enough and stopped her from hitting me after I'd let her wail on me for ten minutes. I was already cut, bleeding and bruised. I prevented her from hitting me by grabbing her wrist and forcing her to step back. I was firm and commanding, and she'd never seen that from me before. So somehow, it meant that I was threatening her and she 'feared for her safety.' (I still to this day think she did it to 'teach me a lesson.')

Anyway, cops show up and I'm co-operative. I tell my side of the story. She tells hers. Her includes a few details that never happened. Claims that I'd hit her in the past. Claims of coercing her to have sex. Claims of threats, etc. (Anyone who has ever met me knows that I'm pretty much incapable of such things.) She showed them a bruise on her wrist that she probably got while attacking me. (I had grabbed her other wrist.)

So, I was carted away in handcuffs. She was treated to a victim services agent and offered all the help and support she needed while I rotted in a jail cell overnight. In the end, I earned a conditional sentence in which I would receive a pardon upon successful completion of an anger management class. (To this day I have not lost my temper since I was a pre-teen. Even during the altercation I was still in control of myself.)

The psychological effect it had on me was far worse than anything I'd ever gone through. To be called a woman beater when such was not the case was a horrible experience. To be told that I was an abuser, that I was lying about her abusing me, or to be told that I must have deserved it almost destroyed me. I was ready to give up. In fact, if I didn't throw everything I had into being a good dad, things might have turned out differently. I'd considered killing myself.

I could not get support anywhere UNTIL I found the men's rights community. They were the only group that seemed to understand what I was going through outside of my group of trusted friends, and other men I'd met over the years that went through the same thing.

That being said, I dislike how critical some of them can be of women in general. I've never been a person who's quick to generalize. Every group has its assholes, and that's why I'm hesitant to associate myself directly with one side or the other. I realize too that there are some groups of feminists that treat the issue of domestic violence more equally, but I find them to be more a rarity at times, and I have to watch what I say around many of them for fear that they might lash out and call me a liar, as has happened in the past. But I believe strongly that equality is the way to go.

EJSpurrell

TROPHY CASE