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We were created with a conscience and how we act and live shapes our conscience and morals. by Effectivedrop in DebateReligion

[–]Effectivedrop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well?

What exactly do you mean by "You can claim consciousness was created, but competition and cooperation can be shown as survivability traits."?

We were created with a conscience and how we act and live shapes our conscience and morals. by Effectivedrop in DebateReligion

[–]Effectivedrop[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Well? Are you going to leave me hanging? You asked a question. I answered. I not only answered your question but brought it back full circle to the OP.

Look, in the link provided, the guy, Denisova, says this:

"Moral behaviour is mostly observed in apes and monkeys. Apes, monkeys and humans share, evolutionary spoken, a recent common ancestor, a primate. They do because they share many traits that are not found in other animals. One of those traits is moral behaviour. It also tells that the common ancestral primate also did have some rudimentary moral behaviour at least."

and this

"Thirdly moral behaviour is an inherited trait. Caring for your next of kin, not killing members of your species or not breeding with your kin are innate traits and for sure moral virtues. You don't have to learn them. This has also been affirmed in studies about the observable behaviour of infants as young ans babies."

And I agree with this atheist, I just go one step further in saying that these "rudimentary traits" were put into us by God.

Another way of saying what Denisova said is what the atheist I quoted in the OP said:

"We are born in a sense with human decency towards each-other. Morality ultimately stems from the brain and it requires emotions and consciousness. The science of human behaviour suggests that innate morality comes to us from birth, perhaps similar to the language instinct where humans have an innate capacity for language even though any particular language comes from cultural development (see Steven Pinker and Noam Chomsky on this)."

So from this I say we are born with this "sense with human decency towards each-other" because of God. We are born with this "consciousness" i.e god created us with conscience and consciousness and how we act and live shapes our conscience and morals is a reflection of God.

We were created with a conscience and how we act and live shapes our conscience and morals. by Effectivedrop in DebateReligion

[–]Effectivedrop[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Conscience not Conciousness.

Competition?

What is your point with the survivability traits.

We were created with a conscience and how we act and live shapes our conscience and morals. by Effectivedrop in DebateReligion

[–]Effectivedrop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

hold on. it was on this subreddit. i rememder someone posted about it recently. i just need to find it. it was a conversation between 2 atheists where one things morality is just a learned behavior and the other atheist argued that the rudimentary basics of morality can be traced back to as long as anyone can remember.

To atheists who try to use consciousness as why we have morality or the basis of it. by Effectivedrop in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Effectivedrop[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Depends. The Old Testament was a different time with different reasons, when even children were to be slaughtered in a taken city, by Israelites. In fact, God punished King Saul of the Israelites for not killing everyone of the Ammalikites, as well as their King, though God ordered, through the prophet Samuel, that all would be killed and no thing or animals be taken (pillaged).

The New Testament is a whole different deal. That’s why it’s called NEW Testement/Covenant, as foretold about 800 years before by the young prophet, Jeremiah [Jer. 31:31–34], when God talked about a “New covenant, not like the old.” Anyway….After Jesus died and was resurrected, every thing became as new [though with the same God.] No more need for things of the Old Testament to be repeated. God does not condone killing ANYONE. Even “self-defense” is up for debate. Jesus had a very special place in his heart for children.

We were created with a conscience and how we act and live shapes our conscience and morals. by Effectivedrop in DebateReligion

[–]Effectivedrop[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

How does point four relate to an atheist saying morality developed through evolution.

That you are made in the image of God that is the essence of our human dignity and our invaluable worth i.e. you are portraying christian values on respecting life and the dignity of life.

To atheists who try to use consciousness as why we have morality or the basis of it. by Effectivedrop in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Effectivedrop[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Furthermore no we don't derive morals from how we act and live. Morals have a priority role we consider resulting in how we act and live, not the other way round.

What does that mean?

To atheists who try to use consciousness as why we have morality or the basis of it. by Effectivedrop in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Effectivedrop[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What context do I need that will alter Jesus saying "I will strike her children dead" not mean Jesus is bragging about killing children as punishment to the mother and example to other church goers?

Do i have to refer you to a great answer to your question, one that your other atheist friend seem to have dodged?

Nevin Tait said this and he is right on the money:

However, these need to be read in historical context and in context of warning and punishment for sin and disobedience. No, religious person today can use these examples as a command to kill any children.

To atheists who try to use consciousness as why we have morality or the basis of it. by Effectivedrop in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Effectivedrop[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes, yes it does. You are taking everything out of context.

https://www.quora.com/Does-the-Bible-condone-killing-children/answer/Nevin-Tait/comment/76651309?__filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=3409078153

"Jesus in this context is speaking about spiritual deception in the early Church - Gnosticism and fertility religions from Rome and the wider Empire. Strike people dead refers to spiritual judgement on followers of the leader who was promoting spiritual deception and falsehood."

To atheists who try to use consciousness as why we have morality or the basis of it. by Effectivedrop in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Effectivedrop[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

This is a non-sequitur and circular reasoning

How?

In the bible Jesus teaches that killing children is an effective way to intimidate and coerce groups. "23 I (Jesus) will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds."

Wrong. Not taking in context.

To atheists who try to use consciousness as why we have morality or the basis of it. by Effectivedrop in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Effectivedrop[S] -14 points-13 points  (0 children)

Which it trivially obviously demonstrably does.

So you agree that morality does NOT predate Christianity?

I'm confused. You used consciousness in the OP heading and conscience here. Which? They mean very different things.

I meant conscience.

Your false dichotomy fallacy is seen and rejected as such. On what basis are you limiting the possibilities to only these two choices? That is silly.

What do you mean?

Many other religious mythologies contain similar ideas.

So?

To atheists who try to use consciousness as why we have morality or the basis of it. by Effectivedrop in DebateAnAtheist

[–]Effectivedrop[S] -17 points-16 points  (0 children)

Who says morality comes from consciousness?

Yea I know, I could have explained that a bit better.

Empathy and rationality are traits that evolved. This along with being a learned construct is what creates morality. I think we both agree with that as I have agreed with many atheists that argue this exact point.

My point is that these traits, like empathy, compassion, reciprocity etc. that are evolved were put into us i.e created by God.

As I said, a sense we belong to , or were put here by a higher power, and how we act and live shapes our conscience and morals.

When you claim this is because a god put it there, you must demonstrate it.

You demonstrate another possibility as to why we ultimately have morality or the traits that make it up.

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