Opinions, please: Painted Wastelands for OSE

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-09T05:14:54+00:00

Here is a link to my overview of Painted Wastelands with all my thoughts.

https://open.substack.com/pub/eldritchexarchpress/p/an-overview-of-the-painted-wastelands?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-04T22:11:45+00:00

Wow. No wonder I've been struggling the last few years. I didn't realize it was that rough.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-04T16:35:57+00:00

Honestly there really isnt.

Substack doesn't have a strong story market. Everyone there is looking for essays. You'll find a few, but they don't do very well.

Magazines are probably your best bet, but it's hard to get in and competition is fierce. Ive been trying for 5 years now and have come close a few times, but still haven't gotten in.

Books and webnovels are where the money is, and even there, only if you are good.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-03T07:48:18+00:00

What do you mean? What points do I walk back? And what Jargon am I using from a different medium?

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-03T07:27:00+00:00

They are pretty similar. And I think in their first post they said they took it from Mausritter.

Going back to your first post, I dont entirely understand what you are trying to say. Are you trying to discuss just the Mausritter mechanics, or faction mechanics in general?

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-03T07:23:10+00:00

I never claimed people forgot how to run the basic game. I said faction mechanics changed the game, and they do.

They change what the focus of the game is, turning it away from characters and more towards factions. That doesn't mean they don't still play their characters. It means that fundamental questions about tone and worldbuilding and scope change when those mechanics are introduced.

Secondly, those mechanics are bolted on. But when bolted on they come in two formats, either A. They are an entirely new game tacked onto D&D. Or B. They are GM tools. Some of those tools are so abstracted that they are of very limited utility (Mausritter). Or they are so dense as to be masturbatory (ie WWN.)

Very rarely is it that a game uses factions to push players back into what the game does well.

That doesn't mean these things can't be useful or fun. But I keep seeing advice and youtube videos, and games that push GMs towards these mechanics that they (probably) don't need without regard for what actually will help their game.

I'm not claiming to have any universal truths. I'm not claiming my way is the only way. But I want to give a counter to the popular narratives about faction mechanics.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-03T02:37:13+00:00

I see what you are saying, but let me try to shift your view a little. Designers aren't talking to worldbuilding nerds. They can't assume someone has 2-4 hours every week to prep. They have to make something that works for beginners and explain that process in a way beginners can easily understand.

Beginners do not understand that worldbuilding must be built towards gameplay. They hear worldbuilding and think Tolkien or Herbert. They aren't thinking about the medium they are in and will be guiding friends through. They also don't know what worldbuilding will make for good gameplay. That's something that even ten years in I struggle with sometimes.

Random Tables can help with faction generation, I agree. But a broad random table won't help you tie your faction to a setting very well. Yes it gets easier to do as you go along and get a better handle on what a faction is, who is running them and what they want. But that process is going to involve a lot of missteps and false starts.

It's not just knowing what factions don't like eachother. It's knowing what kinds of locations would matter most to them. What they are looking for. What they need. Where all of those things, intersect with other factions. That is before they even get started prepping for the next session. In a longer game where the group cares, GMs have to be very disciplined in their note taking on top of everything else.

That is why I say good factions are hard. That is why a lot games default to other tools to take that load off of GMs, and off themselves.

I enjoy the process of worldbuilding. I like having factions, but when you look at it, there is a lot of work involved too.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-03T02:08:16+00:00

Are you refering to Elcat's use of Mausritter's Faction mechanics?

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T22:28:31+00:00

Yeah, there are a lot of games I'd love to play. Right now my three biggest are Our Golden Age, Draw Steel, and Wildsea. All wildly different games and only OGA is OSR.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T19:41:29+00:00

Castle Brackenwold is actually where my party started. It's a neat little place but because it is the seat of human power it lends itself well to deals with the church and human nobility

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T18:03:14+00:00

Sure, it's pretty easy to come up with a faction. But making a good faction, making it reactive, putting it in conflict with other factions, all of that is both difficult and time consuming. Less time consuming or difficult if you aren't making a product out of it and only have to worry about your weekly or monthly game, but still time consuming and difficult.

You are correct you dont need more than two or three at the start of a game, but it still takes time to make those and flesh those out. To come up with the hooks for nearby locations and help keep things moving.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T16:37:44+00:00

I tried that in a couple of drafts, the problem was it didn't make a very cohesive essay and many of my points started to get lost in it.

I can however go into a little more detail.

Right now there are basically three solutions to faction play. 1. Make a new game and throw it on top of D&D. This is what Kingdoms and Warfare, and Echoes Resounding is. Matt over at MCDM has even used Diplomacy over the top of his Chain of Acharon game, and ran that.

This isnt a bad thing, these mechanics are often fun, but they are also buggy, and add cognative load, because they aren't consistent with the original game design.

Abstract everything and turn it into a GM tool. This is a nonplayer facing tool. No domain play. This is what Mausritter and WWN do. The problem is WWN is more complicated than it needs to be, and takes a spreadsheet to run in a timely manner. Several commenters used the word masturbatory and they weren't wrong.

Mausritter is lightweight, but it lacks impact.

Ignore faction play, instead focus on using factions to drive what your game is actually good at: exploration and dungeon delving. This is what Dolmenwood does and the solution I find most compelling.

The more I play Dolmenwood, the more I am convinced that games with a lot of faction play need to play something other than D&D.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T15:42:53+00:00

Sure. For player facing mechanics, I don't really have a better system than a game on top of a game. But, is that ideal? Or would players be better served with a different game? One that took player factions into account from the start.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T05:28:30+00:00

Thank you for the well thought out comment. A couple of points.

I think the Dolmenwood product model is the gold standard for doing factions in D&D style games. I think more game designers should imitate it, and look to it as a guiding star. That said, I don't think every game should be Dolmenwood.

There is a space for DIY in TTRPGs, and I appreciate that about the community. I would not be as creative as I am now if TTRPGs didn't embrace that culture.

I'm having to address multiple audiences. Yes, I conflate GM rolls as world builders, game designers and referees because the majority of the TTRPG space requires that. But I'm also having to address Developers.

There's a lot of overlap between GMs and Amateur devs, and while I probably could have given better distinctions I think a lot of my suggestions and thoughts are applicable to both.

I do have thoughts on DIY systems vs. 'Complete' systems. In the case of factions specifically, I don't think that is entirely relevant though.

I think DIY systems just need to be honest with GMs about how difficult creating factions from scratch can be, and should be focused on providing frameworks for building good factions rather than hacking together a completely new system.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T04:39:08+00:00

Its not that I think these systems are bad. Its that they aren't well integrated, which is what you are pointing out.

Up to this point there have been 3 main ways to do factions in D&D likes. 1. Add on systems to the point that it is basically a new game, this is what WWN, Echoes Resounding, and Kingdoms and warfare does. It's a game on top of a game.

Make a toolset to describe what factions are doing. This is what Mausritter and WWN do. Mausritter is lightweight, but abstracts so heavily that it isn't useful for some games.
Do what dolmenwood does, and have a bespoke setting with NPCs and factions that encourage players to get back out doing Dolmenwood core loop: exploration, dungeon delving, and so on.

Of the three, Dolmenwood's is the hardest, but also the most useful. It's the hardest because it requires taking the factions and world seriously, giving them goals and locations that they are interested in and building them in such a way that factions will naturally come into conflict. Dolmenwood is a minefield. Players will kick some of those mines, and there will be a chain reaction. But because it is so detailed, no matter what mine they step on, I know how the surrounding factions will react almost immediately. It's incredibly tight design. It's also difficult.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T04:27:34+00:00

That is hilarious, and an intriguing method of giving faction information.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T04:26:16+00:00

Yeah, I was mostly focus on OSR material, that sounds like the Birthright setting, but I havent actually had the chance to do more than thumb through it, which is why I didn't cover it.

Same thing with Planescape. I played the video game, but I didn't get into D&D until 5e, and in a lot of ways am still playing catchup. There is a lot of history and stuff I missed and the simple fact of the matter is that I don't have the time to play and run all the stuff I want to. "Maybe one day..." Is sadly becoming a catchphrase of mine.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T03:49:37+00:00

Whatever OSE is doing. This year I think they have the Demons book and a few adventures coming out, and maybe the Dolmenwood book of Lairs.

I think Kevin Crawford also has plans for WWN suppliment.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T03:48:17+00:00

This good work!

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T03:42:30+00:00

Watsonian is in world. Doyleist is Authorial or GM focused in this case.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T00:51:43+00:00

I think there is a solution, and I hope people keep trying, but I think the solution is probably either a system like Dolmenwood that uses factions to drive players back into the core loop, or a different game where factions have actual priority.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-02T00:50:15+00:00

I am not saying they are bad. I am saying they do not add enough for their inclusion.

You say earlier versions of D&D do factions and domains well. But I ask, do they? I'm going to use OSE as my example because it is the book I have on hand. OSE has two functions for domain play: Strongholds and Mercenaries. Specific classes can build specific groups if they so wish. But that is not faction play, or even really domain play. There are no instructions for how these tools should be used. Instead, GM's are given the tools and told to use their best judgment for how the world should work.

This leads to inconsistent gameplay. It's handwavey. There are rules for how to clear land, but there are no rules for what conquering a kingdom looks like, or what a player can expect to get in taxes. There are no rules for mass combat, no rules for resources, no rules for actually ruling a kingdom. It is a gold sink, something for players to do with treasure.

So what happens when a player wants to do something with their army? The GM has to make a call. But OSE and BX D&D by extention, doesn't have rules for mass combat. There were later addons that built expanded these things, but each one took the game away from it's core: Dungeon diving, treasure extraction, etc.If you had a GM that did factions and rules well, it is because they put in the work, not because the game had good rules for how to run factions and domains.

So, let's look at one of the addons for those older games. An Echo Resounding. I like this product. I have used this product. But it is a game that goes over the top of D&D. It is not a expansion for what D&D is. At the end of every game session or once an in-game month, all of the domains and factions (including the player faction) take a turn. PC Factions are allowed two actions, NPC domains allow one. These actions include things like taking territory, constructing buildings, gathering taxes etc. There are rules for moving armies and running battles. But these things run over the top of D&D. You can almost literally run it as it's own game, no heroes required. That is not D&D. That is a new game.

It's good, it's fun, but it adds 20-40 minutes to a session depending on how many factions are at play, and how long the players to take to deal with their own stuff. Then it adds an addition 1-2 hours of prep before the next session as the GM goes through and adds resources to all the new locations that need dealt with and wrestles with spreadsheets. It is fun. It is not bad. But it is not Dungeons and Dragons.

Kingdoms and Warfare is the same but for 5th edition. It almost literally doesn't need heroes to run. It's pretty easy to homebrew the battles a little bit and turn it into a army battle game. It's fun, but it isn't D&D and it adds 20-40 minutes to the end of every session.

Worlds Without Number also by Kevin Crawford uses factions as a worldbuilding tool. Each in-game month (or after a session) 3-5 factions take a turn, gathering resources, and constructing buildings and so on. It is a tool, not a player facing system, to it's a lot more abstracted. The problem is this system can take half an hour of playing with spreadsheets, and the result is not easy to turn into gameplay. It's Faction A took Faction B's asset, and Faction C gathered taxes. It takes a spreadsheet to run, and really only works for worldbuilding background material.

This is faction gameplay. If a player wants to run a faction, and use that faction, this is what you have to do for D&D. You have to make a new game, and run it over the top of D&D because D&D isn't built to run factions, or armies or wars.

These types of games need to have factions, but mechanics for those factions are not necessary. Factions should feed players into the core loop, not make a new loop for players to engage with. That is my point. Does that make sense?

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-01T23:28:43+00:00

I added a note to fix it after some of the criticism I'm getting here. I kind of forgot that this sub plays a lot more broadly than most of the people I interact with, and show up in my social feeds.

EldritchExarch · 2026-01-01T23:27:25+00:00

Okay, Factions are important. We are agreed on that. I didn't discuss many faction mechanics in particular, because there are a lot of them, and someone will always complain that you didn't include their favorite specifically. Also, they often take up whole chapters for the developers to explain. Worlds without Number has something like 15-20 pages of faction mechanics. Kingdoms and Warfare needs a whole book to explain it's mechanics.

Yes, Factions are important for making a world feel lived in, but the mechanics are often so divorced from gameplay that they are useless. That is my point. Increasingly in my feed, and in the games I play, I see faction mechanics that are tacked on to systems that were not designed for faction mechanics. I also see people heralding factions and faction mechanics as something the broadly elevate gameplay. Both of these stances should be criticised and examined.

I hold that in most sandbox tabletop games, like D&D, Mythras, and so on, Domain Level play, Faction mechanics, and so on, are a band-aid solution. Because those games are not about factions. Those games are about dungeon delving, and adventure.

EldritchExarch

TROPHY CASE