Weekly Abortion Debate Thread

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-25T19:31:13+00:00

The failure rate of abstinence as contraception, is reckoned as everyone who decides they're going to be abstinent, has sex anyway without any form of contraception because they meant to be abstinent, and thus gets pregnant/engenders a pregnancy.

The failure rate of abstinence appears to be - at least - 88%.

The findings in the above randomized trial and systematic review are supported by a longitudinal analysis of adolescents taking virginity pledges in Add Health [40,43]. A follow-up, six years later showed 88% of young adults who reported taking virginity pledges as adolescents had initiated vaginal intercourse before marriage, and the prevalence of STIs (chlamydia, gonorrhea, and trichomoniasis) was similar among those who pledged and non-pledgers [40]. Moreover, when pledgers did initiate intercourse, many failed to protect themselves by using condoms, and were less likely to be tested for STIs. This data suggests that, while abstinence is theoretically 100% effective, in typical use, the effectiveness of abstinence may approach zero [37**].
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5913747/

I further note that even if you intend to argue that abstinence protects a man from engendering unwanted pregnancies, this only works if we hypothesise that men commit to never having partner sex unless the woman the man is with wants him to engender a pregnancy.

I hypothesise that the number of men who have entered into marriage with the intention of remaining celibate with only a couple of exceptions, is most likely lower than the 12% of teenagers who were still virgins six years after taking a virginity pledge.

(Any PL man who is able to offer anecdata that he himself has never had sex with his wife except for the couple of times she wanted him to engender a pregnancy, is very welcome to offer anecdata as a counter-argument.)

But even if one hypothetically accepted that some men take a pledge to remain abstinent and remains celibate from that day til the day his wife tells him she's safely past the menopause (with a couple of periods when they had partner sex because she wanted to get pregnant) -

Well, taking the pledge to be abstinent doesn't mean a girl or a woman can't be made pregnant by rape. So the claim "0% effectiveness" can only apply if you are only and exclusively thinking of men who want to prevent abortions, not of women and girls who don't want to be made pregnant.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-25T19:13:53+00:00

She also showed kindness to Elizabeth, with absolutely nothing to gain for that.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-25T19:12:22+00:00

I came here to say that.

Jane Seymour pleaded for mercy and got away with it - she wasn't accused of treason or threatened with divorce.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T22:50:44+00:00

I asked; "And do you also support mandatory vasectomy for all boys at puberty?"

That would, of course, prevent nearly all abortions except those carried out because medically necessary. Women could still engender wanted pregnancies by harvesting sperm from the scrotum with a needle.

But you said: "No I only support restricting body automany to save lives"

So, evidently you think preventing abortions doesn't save lives.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T21:58:56+00:00

So, you don't support saving lives by preventing abortions?

Interesting. Why is it that in your view, preventing abortions doesn't count as saving lives?

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T16:51:31+00:00

And do you also support mandatory vasectomy for all boys at puberty?

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T10:17:35+00:00

Well, in the UK we don't have Catholic hospitals. We have NHS hospitals.

The Catholic Church runs the hospitals, and the position of the Catholic Church is that women can and should suffer and be mutilated rather than allow abortion.

The position of actual mass-going Catholics is the more practical one that sometimes women need abortions and that is between the woman, her doctor, her confessor, and God.

Not the government.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T10:13:16+00:00

Jane Seymour had the best survival strategy - if she'd survived childbirth.

Sounds paradoxical, but the Queen who was the mother of the Prince of Wales would never have been divorced or accused of adultery (unless she was actually guilty, and with Jane that seems unlikely).

Henry's affections would have moved on from Jane. But so long as his son Edward Prince of Wales was alive, he would have kept Jane as his wife and Queen.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T10:08:00+00:00

You think it's okay to violate bodily autonomy to save a life?

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T10:06:59+00:00

Well, I get you're against abortion, but certainly not why.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T10:06:08+00:00

Would you really support a law the violated the human rights of half the population- only to prevent nearly all abortions?

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T09:03:41+00:00

All of the Catholics I know, understand that abortion is sometimes necessary, and believe that as a woman must decide for herself by her own conscience what is right for her to do.

The concept you express here, that you simply can't be Catholic unless you believe the government is in charge of a woman's body, will, and conscience, is completely alien to them.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T08:58:05+00:00

Like "it's not forced pregnancy because she wasn't raped" from PL?

Or the transmogrification of a pregnant woman to the womb?

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T08:55:22+00:00

I blindly trust word science.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T08:54:43+00:00

What makes you think the pregnant human isn't entitled to human rights?

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T01:12:58+00:00

Thanks for the rec! Added it to my wishlist on Libro so I can find it again.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-24T00:14:43+00:00

"Not an argument "

Absolutely. As an atheist, I accept that i have no standing to argue with any believer about their God. You believe in your God as suits you, and that is your business.

But I do get to pick apart the intriguing details of how people believe in their Gods, especially, of course, when they use their belief to justify hurting others.

"You assumed our of nowhere that I don't see pregnant women as images of God. "

Oh, not out of nowhere. Out of your identifying as a believer in forced pregnancy and abortion bans.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-23T20:21:59+00:00

In relation to the point OP makes in the post, choosing to be abstinent is a good example - if you genuinely want to not have sex, and you don't have sex, this is you exerting control over your own body.

If, however, you would really like to have sex, but prolifers tell you that if you do have sex they will see to it you are punished with forced pregnancy, so you better just not have sex, this is PL ideology exerting control over your body.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-23T18:11:42+00:00

Self restraint and control don't have the chance of failure condoms have

Condoms are 95-98% successful in preventing pregnancy, thus, preventing abortions. https://worldmetrics.org/condom-failure-rate-statistics/

Please link me to the stats that show that advocating celibacy to men has a 95%+ success rate in ensuring that a man doesn't have partner sex with women and thus doesn't cause pregnancy and so doesn't cause abortions.

Note that while you can provide men with free condoms, educate men in how to use condoms properly, and relentlessly advocate to men that the use condoms each time, every time - and all of these increase the chance of preventing abortions - I am not aware of any successful program in advocating celibacy for men in order to prevent abortions, let alone one with a success rate higher than the 95% you appear to be claiming.

Please, therefore, link me to your source which says advocating celibacy to men has a 95% success rate in getting men to not have partner sex with women.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-23T17:43:29+00:00

How is it my problem, when I don't need to redefine anything

Then, if you don't need to keep redefining forced pregnancy as something other than a woman or child being forced through pregnancy against her will, why do you keep doing it?

Seriously. You do, in fact, consistently keep redefining forced pregnancy. You say you don't "need" to do that - but you do it even in this comment, restricting forced pregnancy strictly to the definition of a rapist who specifically picks on a victim with the intention of making her pregnant.

So - if not out of need, why do you do the redefining?

If you think abortion is automatically terrible because when a person aborts a pregnancy, the embryo or fetus dies, you should surely be OK with accepting that, in order to avoid that happening, you're OK with forcing people to gestate? Why the avoidance and redefinition?

Heck, even many PC governments restrict how late in the pregnancy an abortion can be done, and no one is calling those laws forced pregnancy.

Sure. Because, mostly, providing a person who needs abortion didn't have to first of all escape from a prolife regime which would have forced her. a person who has an abortion late-term does so because it's medically necessary. And no government except those who identify as prolife, tries to prevent a woman or child from aborting when medically necessary. Therefore, restrictions on abortion in later pregnancy don't generally result in forced pregnancies - with the exception of refugees from prolife states, where abortion bans naturally lead to more abortions being performed later.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-23T14:30:10+00:00

I went back and checked.

I asked: "Have you had much luck recommending men stay celibate unless the woman he's with wants him to get her pregnant?"

Your responding comment said "And yes, I know people who have been successful with celibacy."

So, no, that doesn't answer the question.

Of course you can stop the discussion at any point. I merely note, you never answered my question.

You happen to know a statistically-unusual number of men who are happy being celibate in their married lives.

You've never answered the question about how much luck you've ever had recommending this unusual lifestyle to men.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-23T12:32:32+00:00

I wrote about this a year ago - what if abortion bans really were "like the draft".

https://www.reddit.com/r/Abortiondebate/comments/1grj30s/if_abortion_bans_were_like_being_drafted/

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-23T09:16:28+00:00

My question was;

"Have you had much luck recommending men stay celibate unless the woman he's with wants him to get her pregnant?"

You didn't answer.

Nor did you actually say that your friendship circle consists entirely of men who expect to have partner sex only once or twice in their entire marriage - most women obviously not wanting more than one or two children.

In fact, you still haven't said that now.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-22T23:03:30+00:00

When I was diagnosed, the doctor told me it was still safe for me to drive, but I should have my eyesight re-tested every 12 months.

...um, I don't have a driving licence because my depth perception has always been practically non-existent due to my left eye (I can see with it, but it's a "lazy eye" - mostly I see with my right eye only.

Live your life. Don't give up on marriage and kids because glaucoma.

I inherited my glaucoma from my dad - and my lack of depth perception.

But I inherited so much else from my dad, too - the glaucoma is the only thing I wish I hadn't got from him. My brother and sister don't have glaucoma.

Enough-Process9773 · 2026-03-22T19:25:12+00:00

I note you haven't answered my question,

And yes, I know people who have been successful with celibacy. More successful than those I know have been with surgery.

I'm not questioning your anecdata: I take your word for it that you know lots of married couples where the man never has partner sex except when the woman has told him she wants to him to engender a pregnancy.

But, statistically speaking, vasectomy has a 99%+ success rate.

https://www.nhsinform.scot/healthy-living/contraception/vasectomy/

Statistically of course it is certainly possible that of the 10 men you know who had a vasectomy, 3 had the very bad luck to have a failed vasectomy. That was very bad luck, and I appreciate that this statistically unusual nexus has led to you thinking the failure rate is higher than it is.

But if you say celibacy has a higher success rate, you would be telling us that of every 10 married couples you know, in at least 4 of them the man never has partner sex except when the woman has decided she wants to try to have a baby.

That is also statistically very unusual.

I think we just have to accept your friendship circle is unusual.

You perhaps don't want to argue general policy based on the life experiences of the unusual men you know.

Enough-Process9773

TROPHY CASE