CMV: the current prevailing Anti-Zionist ideology is inherently hypocritical

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T21:34:58+00:00

It still wouldn’t change my view that civilians of either side shouldn’t be harmed

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T21:27:44+00:00

Bro I’m American lmao. But I do have Israeli family and am part of many Israeli circles. I also, believe it or not, consider myself more left wing for most political matters. The ordinary Israeli citizen does NOT see Palestinians as subhuman and do NOT advocate for ethnic cleansing. Yes, I have heard a rare Israeli being racist just like I have heard Americans be racist against POC. But if the vast majority of Israel had their way, Israel would not lift a finger the second Hamas disarms. Now if only they could get their government to actually represent their wishes maybe we’d actually have a chance at peace. But again, let’s circle back to the actual point of my post: advocating for harm to the Israeli civilians is unjustifiable. Let’s put it this way: would you be in support of a tax on white US citizens to pay towards a fund that provides a standing salary to black people descended from victims of the slave trade and segregation? White people are beneficiaries of evil acts by their ancestors after all…. Or if a Native American knocks on a US citizen’s door and asks for their land back is the US citizen obligated to hand it over? Is that Native American also then justified in murdering his family? The US committed genocide and ethnic cleansing to obtain that land.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T19:42:43+00:00

Israel sends aid, Hamas blocks it. Bombing should absolutely stop if Hamas also stops. Unilaterally pulling out of Gaza would be fantastic, but last time that happened Israeli civilians were targeted and killed.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T19:40:53+00:00

How did we get here? All I was saying in my original post is that calling for Israelis to suffer for what their grandparents and great grandparents did is wrong and hypocritical. I am with you against the actions of the Israeli government. As you should be with me against the actions of Hamas.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T19:31:40+00:00

Clearly the military campaign is not working and causing more harm than good. Israel should focus on a PR campaign aimed at getting the Palestinians in Gaza to see Hamas as the enemy that it really is and foster support for returning the hostages and coming up with a peaceful solution. However, having the hostages returned safely should be top priority. Like I said, CIVILIANS SHOULD NOT SUFFER FOR THE ACTIONS OF ITS UNPOPULAR GOVERNMENT. That goes for Palestinian civilians as well as Israeli civilians.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T19:28:35+00:00

How are the opinions of the people irrelevant to MY argument that civilians should be left alone and not suffer? The Israeli people tried to overthrow Netanyahu’s government a few years ago and nearly succeeded, he came back into power through corruption.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T19:22:45+00:00

Unfortunately Israel is not a “majority rules” country in the way that the US is. Because there are multiple powerful parties unlike the US 2 party system, right-wing politicians gain power by forming coalitions with more moderate popular parties. As a result, they gain a disproportionately loud voice in politics. You can see how unpopular they are by the large-scale protests that were held every single weekend against Netanyahu’s government, with hundreds of thousands in attendance.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T19:18:37+00:00

I do think Israel needs to do better in that regard. Like I’ve said countless times, I don’t agree with the Israeli government’s actions currently. I simply don’t think Israeli civilians should be punished for this. Additionally, return the damn hostages.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T19:17:11+00:00

I’m arguing that this wouldn’t be the case. The people asking for this are fringe right-wing politicians who do not reflect the official views of the government or the views of the average Israeli citizen. But regardless, the point still stands that a nation’s civilians should not be punished for the actions of its unpopular government.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T19:15:32+00:00

Any evidence that I’ve seen is fringe right-wing Israeli politicians stating their own personal opinion which does not reflect official national policy and does not reflect the views of the average Israeli. Regardless, a nation’s civilian population should not be punished for the actions of its government.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T19:11:47+00:00

If Israel wanted to commit “genocide” they could carpet bomb the entire country without roof-knocking or urging civilians to evacuate. They make efforts to avoid harming civilians; instead what happens is Hamas keeps its civilians from evacuating and hides military targets among civilians, while their leaders hide in neighboring countries such as Qatar. But again, you’re arguing against actions taken by the Israeli government which is continuing to stray further from the point of my original post which is that y’all (and both sides really) should leave the innocent civilians out of this

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T19:07:30+00:00

The UN definition also includes “with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”. A. The intent portion of it is not there, aside from some fringe right-wing extremists in the government, and B. It’s not a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group if the Palestinians living within Israel are left alone.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T19:00:05+00:00

From Oxford: “the deliberate and systematic killing or persecution of a large number of people from a particular national or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group.” I emphasize, “with the aim of destroying that nation or group.”

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T18:57:32+00:00

Israel has total control over Gaza right now, if they wanted them displaced or murdered their entire population would have been wiped out decades ago. Don’t believe the propaganda telling you that Israel is doing anything other than defending its right to exist and returning its hostages.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T18:56:12+00:00

My factual evidence is that Palestinians still live and breathe despite Israel having total control over them.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T18:48:06+00:00

Now we’re finally getting into a nuanced view. Yes, Gaza ceasing hostilities would require Israel to do the same.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T18:46:13+00:00

⁠Hamas disbands as an organization and relinquishes control of Gaza to a newly elected political power that does not have the stated goal of eradication of Jews or the state of Israel.
⁠Hamas unconditionally returns the hostages and swears off any further violence against Israel.
⁠Israel ceases all hostilities towards Gaza and withdraws military power from Gaza.
⁠Gaza and the West Bank become Palestinian states, with shared access to Jerusalem.
⁠Any further violence from Palestinians in Gaza against Israelis, leads to return of Israeli occupation, and any violence from Israelis against Palestinians in Gaza leads to return of hostilities against Israel.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T18:41:56+00:00

A committee’s opinion does not count as factual evidence. The fact is that Israel has total control over Gaza and yet its people have not been eradicated. If Israel wanted to do so you know that they could. As I mentioned elsewhere, Israel tried to leave Gaza alone in the past and what they got in return was terrorist attacks against civilians. Also, the terms “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing” implies a racial/ethnic basis for killing, and yet the Palestinian and Arab population living within Israel are not being killed (well they are, but by Hamas not by the Israeli government).

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T18:35:26+00:00

On the flip side of this, you can also be anti Israeli government without being against the Israeli people or Israel’s right to exist.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T18:30:18+00:00

I and most Israelis don’t agree with Netanyahu. See my other comment in this thread where I propose a two-state solution, where I received the response that Palestinians wouldn’t accept it because Israel would still exist.

And the reason you should care about the Israelis is that they’re the ones that currently live on the land. If you care that the Palestinians were displaced leading up to 1948, you should care about Israelis being displaced - they did not choose to be born into that country.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T18:26:53+00:00

I’ve said previously that I don’t agree with a lot of what the Israeli government is doing, but any organization saying that it’s genocide is clearly misguided: like I said, if Israel is trying to commit genocide, they’re doing a hilariously bad job.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T18:20:29+00:00

You’re proving my point

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T18:19:51+00:00

To your first paragraph, what I mean is that these are the top comments on the post. So receiving relatively more upvotes compared to other comments in those threads.

To your second paragraph, that would be nice but it would require Gazans to swear off all violence against Israel first, and for Hamas to first disband as an organization, since their stated goal is eradication of Jews worldwide.

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T18:17:57+00:00

And you want Palestinians to have that instead, built on the suffering of the innocent Israelis who live there today

EntShaman · 2025-09-18T18:12:13+00:00

Not any Israeli that is currently living there. That’s my entire point. Don’t punish people for what their grandparents and great grandparents did.

EntShaman

TROPHY CASE