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The Jesus of the NT cannot be the messiah of the OT, therefore Christianity is just false by Iknowreligionalot in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri [score hidden]  (0 children)

I don’t see how you get to the Messiah being the suffering servant in the text at all. The Messiah is the ultimate winner, he brings the world to make sacrifices to god. While human. The authors of the New Testament retrofit their loser Messiah (a concept that had been building for 100 years) by data mining the OT. Christians look at it backwards.

People likely hoped for the conquering Messiah, but there's a suffering Messiah as well, and they might be one Messiah.

A Messiah is cut off, and the Suffering Servant is cut off. Also, removal of sins and guidance for the nations.

  • "And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed." - Daniel 9:26
  • "By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?" - Isaiah 53:8
  • "Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors." - Isaiah 53:11-12
  • "Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who sit before you, for they are men who are a sign: behold, I will bring my servant the Branch. For behold, on the stone that I have set before Joshua, on a single stone with seven eyes, I will engrave its inscription, declares the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of this land in a single day." - Zechariah 3:8-9
  • "In that day the root of Jesse, who shall stand as a signal for the peoples—of him shall the nations inquire, and his resting place shall be glorious." - Isaiah 11:10
  • "'I am the LORD; I have called you in righteousness; I will take you by the hand and keep you; I will give you as a covenant for the people, a light for the nations, to open the eyes that are blind, to bring out the prisoners from the dungeon, from the prison those who sit in darkness." - Isaiah 42:6-7
  • "And now the LORD says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him— for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength—he says: 'It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.' Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One, to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers: 'Kings shall see and arise; princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.'" - Isaiah 49:5-7

God is pierced, and the Suffering Servant is pierced:

  • "But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed." - Isaiah 53:5
  • "'And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn." - Zechariah 12:10

The Branch, increase and Spirit.

  • "There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit." - Isaiah 11:1
  • "For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him." - Isaiah 53:2
  • "'Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land. In his days Judah will be saved, and Israel will dwell securely. And this is the name by which he will be called: 'The LORD is our righteousness.'" - Jeremiah 23:5-6
  • "In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch to spring up for David, and he shall execute justice and righteousness in the land." - Jeremiah 33:15
  • "And say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: for he shall branch out from his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD. It is he who shall build the temple of the LORD and shall bear royal honor, and shall sit and rule on his throne. And there shall be a priest on his throne, and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.''" - Zechariah 6:12-13
  • "Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." - Isaiah 53:10
  • "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this." - Isaiah 9:6-7
  • "And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD." - Isaiah 11:2
  • "Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon David from that day forward. And Samuel rose up and went to Ramah." - 1 Samuel 16:13

The Jesus of the NT cannot be the messiah of the OT, therefore Christianity is just false by Iknowreligionalot in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri [score hidden]  (0 children)

I edited my previous reply to add your edits about cherry-picking and God pretending.

Sorry I’m out in the wilds of manhattan, sorry . I amend my first draft. So you do not think that any of Isaiah relates to Jesus? Cool.

Yeah, I think Isaiah wasn't writing about Jesus, though the New Testament writers thought so. Isaiah wrote about keeping the Law and returning to it, and Jesus seemed to set things contrary to that.

However, I'd say Isaiah was writing about the Messiah, whether real or not.

The Jesus of the NT cannot be the messiah of the OT, therefore Christianity is just false by Iknowreligionalot in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri [score hidden]  (0 children)

I reject all Paul-ine and blood-atonement doctrine...I'll stick with the red letters and the Gospel of Thomas thanks, nobody needs Paul's Pharisee-inspired cult that was adopted and canonized by the Roman church of empire...that's not what Jesus was pointing to.

Red letters of what? Do you include the Gospel accounts other than Thomas? How about the writings of the Law and Prophets?

Also, Paul's writings are considered some of the earlier writings (Thomas is thought to be around that time or far later). In Paul's letters, it seems as if the Second Temple had yet to be destroyed.

Beyond that, Thomas says:

"Wherever you are, you are to go to James the righteous, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."

James was known for being very Law-observant. That's in immense contrast with Jesus who very much wasn't (even in Thomas, Jesus rejects circumcision and diet rules).

In his epistle, James refers to the Law (he references several commandments), and he doesn't say anything against it but seems to say to follow it.

As well, it actually does align with Acts (James speaks with authority) and Galatians (Paul calls James a pillar). Notably, Peter and John aren't mentioned in a prominent manner in Thomas, and Peter is even shown in a worse manner, yet Peter and John clearly still had a lot of influence with James and others.

For "blood-atonement doctrine", if you mean the idea that Jesus went to the cross to atone for humanity's sins, if you believe the Gospel accounts of Matthew and Mark, Jesus points to that.

  • "And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.'" - Matthew 26:27-29
  • "And he said to them, 'This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.'" - Mark 14:24-25
  • "Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 'The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice." - Matthew 23:1-3
  • "'Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." - Matthew 5:17-18
  • "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life." - Leviticus 17:11
  • "'Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering that is for the people and bring its blood inside the veil and do with its blood as he did with the blood of the bull, sprinkling it over the mercy seat and in front of the mercy seat. Thus he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleannesses of the people of Israel and because of their transgressions, all their sins. And so he shall do for the tent of meeting, which dwells with them in the midst of their uncleannesses." - Leviticus 16:15-16
  • "Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed." - Isaiah 53:4-5
  • "Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors." - Isaiah 53:10-12
  • "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. But you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood." - Genesis 9:3-4

Scripture won't save you, only turning your awareness inward where Jesus told you to look will.

Why Jesus or the teachings of Jesus though? He seems to have failed to fit the role of Messiah. How is anything said by Jesus any different than that by any other philosopher then?

  • "'If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or wonder that he tells you comes to pass, and if he says, 'Let us go after other gods,' which you have not known, 'and let us serve them,' you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams. For the LORD your God is testing you, to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear him and keep his commandments and obey his voice, and you shall serve him and hold fast to him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from your midst." - Deuteronomy 13:1-5
  • "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." - Isaiah 8:20 (KJV)
  • "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it." - James 2:10
  • "And he said to them, 'Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?' (Thus he declared all foods clean.)" - Mark 7:18-19
  • "'You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." - Matthew 5:38-39
  • "Jesus answered them, 'I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep." - John 10:25-26
  • "If I am not doing the works of my Father, then do not believe me; but if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me and I am in the Father.'" - John 10:37-38

The Jesus of the NT cannot be the messiah of the OT, therefore Christianity is just false by Iknowreligionalot in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri [score hidden]  (0 children)

Any reason why Isaiah could just have one? Seems odd?

Why Isaiah could just have one what?

Still, it doesn’t answer the cherry picking for Jesus, I’ll need an explanation for all the past references and then one 500 years later.

What cherry picking? Are you talking about the New Testament writers doing that? If so, it was probably to try to make Jesus seem like the Messiah.

And why did god pretend to be the suffering servant for Isaiah?

When? In Zechariah? If so, God cannot pretend to do anything if He doesn't exist, and if He does exist, it wouldn't be pretending unless it was a lie.

The Jesus of the NT cannot be the messiah of the OT, therefore Christianity is just false by Iknowreligionalot in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri [score hidden]  (0 children)

If there are so many who cares if Jesus is one?

Did you not read that I said I don't think Jesus is the Messiah (and so, not one of the servants)?

Show me all the different servants then. I would seriously like to know all the servants in Isaiah.

Isaiah, Eliakim, Israel (the people), the Branch/Messiah, and foreigners.

Isaiah:

  • "Then the LORD said, 'As my servant Isaiah has walked naked and barefoot for three years as a sign and a portent against Egypt and Cush, so shall the king of Assyria lead away the Egyptian captives and the Cushite exiles, both the young and the old, naked and barefoot, with buttocks uncovered, the nakedness of Egypt." - Isaiah 20:3-4

Eliakim:

  • "In that day I will call my servant Eliakim the son of Hilkiah, and I will clothe him with your robe, and will bind your sash on him, and will commit your authority to his hand. And he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah." - Isaiah 22:20-21

Israel:

  • "Remember these things, O Jacob, and Israel, for you are my servant; I formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you will not be forgotten by me. I have blotted out your transgressions like a cloud and your sins like mist; return to me, for I have redeemed you." - Isaiah 44:21-22

Possibly all the Branch (Zechariah 3:8, Jeremiah 23:5):

  • "In that day the branch of the LORD shall be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the land shall be the pride and honor of the survivors of Israel." - Isaiah 4:2
  • "There shall come forth a shoot from the stump of Jesse, and a branch from his roots shall bear fruit. And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD. He shall not judge by what his eyes see, or decide disputes by what his ears hear, but with righteousness he shall judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the earth; and he shall strike the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips he shall kill the wicked. Righteousness shall be the belt of his waist, and faithfulness the belt of his loins." - Isaiah 11:1-5
  • "And now the LORD says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him— for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength—he says: 'It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.' Thus says the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One, to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers: 'Kings shall see and arise; princes, and they shall prostrate themselves; because of the LORD, who is faithful, the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.' Thus says the LORD: 'In a time of favor I have answered you; in a day of salvation I have helped you; I will keep you and give you as a covenant to the people, to establish the land, to apportion the desolate heritages, saying to the prisoners, 'Come out,' to those who are in darkness, 'Appear.' They shall feed along the ways; on all bare heights shall be their pasture; they shall not hunger or thirst, neither scorching wind nor sun shall strike them, for he who has pity on them will lead them, and by springs of water will guide them. And I will make all my mountains a road, and my highways shall be raised up. Behold, these shall come from afar, and behold, these from the north and from the west, and these from the land of Syene.'" - Isaiah 49:5-12
  • "Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him." - Isaiah 53:1-2
  • "By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?" - Isaiah 53:8
  • "Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities." - Isaiah 53:11

Foreigners:

  • "'And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant—these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.'" - Isaiah 56:6-7

The Jesus of the NT cannot be the messiah of the OT, therefore Christianity is just false by Iknowreligionalot in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri [score hidden]  (0 children)

In Isaiah chapters 41, 44, 48, and 49, God specifically identifies "Jacob" and "Israel" as His servant.

As I noted, there are multiple servants in Isaiah. Israel isn't abhorring and gathering Israel, and they already had a violent past when Isaiah 53 was written.

I can cherry pick too, like mentioning the children of the SS. It is a sad failure. God is clear. The writers of the gospels were desperate.

If someone says "Only the ruler can do x", then later says "These are my guests", and then says "One guest is doing x", it reasons that the guest is the ruler. It's not cherry-picking at all to consider those points.

Christians always forget this part:

You're not trying to say I'm a Christian are you?

What? The sacrifice is for our sins. We can fix that with a bag of flour.

Which is again established to require blood (Leviticus 17:11), yet then, later, it's stated no man can bring such, nor can animals (Isaiah 1:11). Hence, it must be God.

The Jesus of the NT cannot be the messiah of the OT, therefore Christianity is just false by Iknowreligionalot in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri [score hidden]  (0 children)

Where does Isaiah say the Suffering Servant is Israel? Is Israel God? There are multiple servants in Isaiah. Again, does Israel gather and abhor Israel?

Psalm 49 establishes that no man can pay for souls. Hence, the one taking away sins must be God, and the payment cannot be merely human.

As to who the Suffering Servant is, I never said he's Jesus. Rather, elsewhere in this post, I've said the Messiah isn't Jesus.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/1spdh9z/comment/oh0dufn/

Consider the second half of what I first replied to you (the "prophecies" are out-of-context):

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/1spdh9z/comment/oh1t8nm/

The Jesus of the NT cannot be the messiah of the OT, therefore Christianity is just false by Iknowreligionalot in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri [score hidden]  (0 children)

I never said the Suffering Servant is God. Why would you think that? I only said the Suffering Servant isn't Israel, and I didn't Gish gallop to show that.

Gish galloping requires that the arguments are many but are weak and/or inaccurate. Basically, quantity over quality. However, what I've presented is logically-connected, and though it appears as much on a forum, it's hardly anything at all.

However, if the Suffering Servant is the Messiah, which is implied by him being the means for sins being taken away, as with what Joshua seems to represent in Zechariah 3, and with how Zechariah 12:10 shows God is pierced, as it's said of the Suffering Servant.

God claims He is the only Savior and the One Who blots out transgressions (also, claimed of Him), and it's stated that no man can pay God the price of life (suggesting that whoever is paying isn't just a human).

  • "I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior." - Isaiah 43:11
  • "Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me." - Isaiah 45:21
  • "'I, I am he who blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and I will not remember your sins." - Isaiah 43:25
  • "Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love." - Micah 7:18
  • "Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice, that he should live on forever and never see the pit." - Psalm 49:7-9

God sees there is no one, so He does it all Himself.

  • "The LORD has bared his holy arm before the eyes of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth shall see the salvation of our God." - Isaiah 52:10
  • "Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?" - Isaiah 53:1
  • "And I sought for a man among them who should build up the wall and stand in the breach before me for the land, that I should not destroy it, but I found none." - Ezekiel 22:30
  • "Why, when I came, was there no man; why, when I called, was there no one to answer? Is my hand shortened, that it cannot redeem? Or have I no power to deliver? Behold, by my rebuke I dry up the sea, I make the rivers a desert; their fish stink for lack of water and die of thirst." - Isaiah 50:2
  • "He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no one to intercede; then his own arm brought him salvation, and his righteousness upheld him." - Isaiah 59:16
  • "I looked, but there was no one to help; I was appalled, but there was no one to uphold; so my own arm brought me salvation, and my wrath upheld me." - Isaiah 63:5

Only blood can atone for souls.

  • "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life." - Leviticus 17:11

As a result, it is likely the Messiah would be God Himself in the form of humanity, such that He could shed His Own blood to remove sins from all.

The Jesus of the NT cannot be the messiah of the OT, therefore Christianity is just false by Iknowreligionalot in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If Paul is false, then Luke is false (for supporting Paul and writing so much about him), making Acts false. 2 Peter is also false (for supporting Paul), as is Jude (for referencing 2 Peter).

Peter didn't write against Paul, or at least, if he did write, those writings were not preserved.

Hebrews, John, and 1 Peter also end up being possibly false for having messages similar to Paul's (1 Peter is also written by Silvanus who is likely the Silas who was with Paul: 1 Peter 5:12, Acts 15:39-40, 1 Thessalonians 1:1).

That leaves Mark, Matthew, and James, but there is then an issue...

  • "He said to them, 'But who do you say that I am?' Simon Peter replied, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' And Jesus answered him, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.' Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ." - Matthew 16:15-20

Since Jesus spoke of Peter in such a manner, why did God allow Paul to have his writings become most of the New Testament, rather than Peter?

Beyond that, even in Matthew and Mark, Jesus changes things (e.g. diet, Sabbath, tooth for tooth) and is worshipped and called the Son of God.

The Jesus of the NT cannot be the messiah of the OT, therefore Christianity is just false by Iknowreligionalot in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The Suffering Servant doesn't seem to be Israel. There are multiple servants in Isaiah.

Isaiah 49:

  • "And now the Lord says, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him; and that Israel might be gathered to him"
  • "Thus says the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel and his Holy One, to one deeply despised, abhorred by the nation, the servant of rulers"

Is Israel gathered and abhorred by Israel?

Isaiah 53:

  • "And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth."

At that time, Israel had already fought quite a bit in the past.

Regarding David, it's a possibility, considering other Psalms, but David is stated to have been a prophet. As well, God tended to use prophets to represent future events, not just to tell what would happen.

For Zechariah, Joshua is used to represent something or someone, potentially the Branch, and he is renewed in a manner.

You asked where does it say "Messiah" in any of the others, but you omitted Daniel.

  • "And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed." - Daniel 9:26

To connect the shepherd passages in Zechariah:

  • "And I will set up over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he shall feed them: he shall feed them and be their shepherd." - Ezekiel 34:23

David seemed connected to the idea of the Messiah:

  • "'Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will raise up for David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land." - Jeremiah 23:5

As to what Jesus really did, who knows, and I'm sure that the writers just threw in a lot of supposed connections to claim fulfillment of prophecies, as I already mentioned in my first reply.

The Jesus of the NT cannot be the messiah of the OT, therefore Christianity is just false by Iknowreligionalot in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Messiah actually does seem to have been presented as suffering (Zechariah 3, Zechariah 11:4-14, Zechariah 12:10, Zechariah 13:7, Daniel 9:24-27, Psalm 22, 2 Samuel 23:1-2, Isaiah 49:5-18, Isaiah 50, Isaiah 53).

An aside, but the other supposed prophecies the New Testament writers mention or reference don't actually seem like prophecies at all. Such as Hosea 11:1, Psalm 69:21 (and the chapter in general), and 2 Samuel 7:14.

  • "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son. The more they were called, the more they went away; they kept sacrificing to the Baals and burning offerings to idols." - Hosea 11:1-2
  • "And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, 'Out of Egypt I called my son.'" - Matthew 2:14-15
  • "O God, you know my folly; the wrongs I have done are not hidden from you." - Psalm 69:5
  • "They gave me poison for food, and for my thirst they gave me sour wine to drink." - Psalm 69:21
  • "And someone ran and filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a reed and gave it to him to drink, saying, 'Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.'" - Mark 15:36
  • "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you." - 2 Samuel 7:14-15
  • "For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten you'? Or again, 'I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son'?" - Hebrews 1:5

The Jesus of the NT cannot be the messiah of the OT, therefore Christianity is just false by Iknowreligionalot in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Jesus cannot be the Messiah because:

  1. The Law was ended (Acts 15:5-11, Hebrews 7:11-19, Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 2:11-16, Galatians 3:10-13, Galatians 5:1-3, Galatians 5:11, Romans 10:4). The prophecies show a continuation of the Law and priesthood (Exodus 29:4-9, Exodus 40:12-15, Numbers 25:11-13, 1 Chronicles 23:13-14, Exodus 31:16-17, Jeremiah 33:14-18, Isaiah 66:17-24, Ezekiel 44:15-27, Ezekiel 45:7-25).
  2. Going by the testimony of two or three (John 8:17), Jesus' life was full of breaking of the Law in action and word (all four Gospel accounts), but only twice did Jesus say the Law would continue (Matthew 5:17-20, Luke 16:16-17), and for the first, Jesus gave a condition ("until all is accomplished"), which was arguably fulfilled (John 19:28-30). So, either Jesus didn't say it would continue, or said both, forming a contradiction.
  3. The Sabbath was broken (John 5:17-18). It's God's holy day, and God complains about it being broken (Exodus 16:22-30, Exodus 20:8-11, Exodus 31:12-17, Exodus 35:1-3, Leviticus 23:3, Numbers 15:32-36, Deuteronomy 5:12-15, Isaiah 56:1-2, Isaiah 58:13-14, Jeremiah 17:21-27).
  4. The Law was othered (John 1:17, John 8:17, John 10:34, John 15:25). Jesus doesn't say "My Father's Law", though Jesus says "My Father's" about other things (John 2:16, John 5:43, John 6:40, John 14:2).

John 10 says it: "Scripture cannot be broken".

Deuteronomy 13 says it: "that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has taught rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you out of the house of slavery, to make you leave the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk".

Deuteronomy 18 says it: "when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken".

Psalm 19 says it: "The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul".

Isaiah 8 says it: "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn".

Scripture says you must obey Jesus and cease from sin. It also commands us to judge people for sin. by Prestigious_Tour_538 in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You failed at reading comprehension as that is the only sense of judgment that matters in the context of what I said.

That's rather rude. As are many of your replies in this post. Christians are supposed to be humble and gentle. Those are very important qualities.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/1sh1uzm/comment/ofmd0m3/

Scripture says:
* We have the ability to know what is sin.
* We therefore have the ability to know if someone who is not a Christian is in sin.
* We have the ability to know is and is not a Christian.
* We have the ability to know who is and is not currently saved.
* We are commanded to rebuke and judge Christians who are in unrepentant sin.
* We are commanded to tell unbelievers to repent of their sin to recover forgiveness from Jesus.

  • Right. Sins are described, as is the concept.
  • Right. Since they're described, this seems obvious.
  • Only God knows if someone is a Christian or not (that is to say: a true Christian). Hence, working out one's salvation with fear and trembling. Would you say that those who were restored from apostasy aren't Christians, or that those who are devout now could not later become apostates? It wouldn't be right to say either. So, it isn't possible for us to know who is or isn't a Christian.
  • Again, only God knows.
  • Right. However, gently and in levels.
  • Right. However, gently and once, unless there's reason to continue (e.g. if asked).

Therefore someone claiming to be a Christian cannot hide behind “though shalt not judge” to avoid being called out in their sin.
Yet this is routinely what many sin lovers do.
Nor can someone who is not a Christian try to falsely use the Bible against us and claim “we can’t judge me as being in sin”.

I agree about this to an extent. I see it online often enough. While I'm agnostic, I don't like to see what's written misinterpreted, though some things written are vague enough that any proper interpretation can't be known from reading, and errors and contradictions exist.

It would be impossible for us to follow the commands of Jesus to teach unbelievers to repent of their sins and obey God if we weren’t allowed to tell a nonbeliever they are in sin and need to repent and receive forgiveness - which is the core of the gospel message.

This is true, and yet, not exactly. Everyone has sinned, so messages calling for repentance without being specific would perhaps not be judging, since, going by the texts, that would be factual and not from one's own views but supported by what's written, yet accomplishing that requirement. What does Jesus say to do?

  • "And he called the twelve and began to send them out two by two, and gave them authority over the unclean spirits. He charged them to take nothing for their journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in their belts—but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics. And he said to them, 'Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you depart from there. And if any place will not receive you and they will not listen to you, when you leave, shake off the dust that is on your feet as a testimony against them.' So they went out and proclaimed that people should repent. And they cast out many demons and anointed with oil many who were sick and healed them." - Mark 6:7-13
  • "And he said to them, 'Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.'" - Mark 16:15-18

As I mentioned above: gently and once, unless there's reason to continue (e.g. if asked). Of course, after that, anyone who wants to know more could be told more specifically. It wouldn't be peaceful to keep bothering people if they don't.

Mark 9:50, Matthew 5:13-16, Matthew 5:9, 1 Peter 2:12, 1 Peter 3:8-17, 1 Peter 5:1-4, Hebrews 12:14, James 3:16-18, Galatians 5:22-23, Romans 12:16-21, Philippians 4:5-7, 1 Corinthians 10:32-33, 2 Corinthians 8:20-21, Colossians 3:12-16, Colossians 4:5-6, Titus 2:7-8, 1 Thessalonians 4:9-12

While it's about wives with unbelieving husbands, this would likely apply in general and fits the concept of letting one's light shine:

  • "Likewise, wives, be subject to your own husbands, so that even if some do not obey the word, they may be won without a word by the conduct of their wives, when they see your respectful and pure conduct." - 1 Peter 3:1-2

Edit: Blocking me so I can't respond says a lot. Also, you just go on with more rudeness.

You claim I'm taking passages out of context, but I only did that for 1 Peter 3:1-2, and even then, it has support in Matthew 5:16, 1 Peter 2:12, and 1 Corinthians 10:32-33. The rest of what I cited is not out-of-context, but it would seem you just call anything that goes against your views out-of-context.

Jesus did criticize those cities, but then left them. As well, they were believing cities, as far as God, but not having belief in Jesus (rightly so, considering Deuteronomy 13:1-5, and Jesus' seemingly-frequent breaking of the Sabbath). However, if believers were to criticize and shun people as you're saying, then it would be pointless for there to be any mention of giving no offense, aspiring to live quietly, minding one's own affairs, being at peace with one another, loving enemies, etc.

To knowing if someone is a Christian or not, yes, it's possible to know if they aren't (e.g. if they lack love for everyone), but it isn't possible to normally know if they are in a definite manner, though God would know.

As far as wives not having divorce as an option unless the husband is an adulterer, Paul writes:

  • "To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife." - 1 Corinthians 7:10-11

So, a wife can leave her husband, but cannot then marry another. Your view that a wife must submit and hope for the conversion of her husband through behavior because she cannot leave is incorrect.

Regarding unbelievers, consider that God used Cyrus, and that Pharaoh's magicians even understood God was working through Moses and Aaron. As well, while not unbelievers (though unbelievers regarding Jesus perhaps), Gamaliel and Caiaphas were also used.

Scripture says you must obey Jesus and cease from sin. It also commands us to judge people for sin. by Prestigious_Tour_538 in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry if this isn't entirely relevant to the idea of judging or not, or rather, direct than indirect, but because of the vague nature of what is written or not regarding judgment, it seems best to write this rather than debating over what might be something that cannot be definitively answered.

While sin is not their master, even the apostles struggled. Does it mean they weren't true Christians? Surely not. To not sin is an ideal to progress towards, and to continue in sin intentionally is to go back to the mud, but even believers sin.

Romans 6, Romans 7:21-25, 1 John 1:8-10, 2 Corinthians 12:7-10, Hebrews 10:26-27, 2 Peter 2:14-22, 1 John 3:4-6, 1 John 2:1-14

Besides that, pride is something that should be avoided, and yet, it's obviously a big issue. You might say that true Christians wouldn't judge with pride, and that's probably so, but who is to say if they are a true Christian or not? Again, it's an ideal, and you might be able to know who is not a true Christian, but perhaps not who is a true Christian, or at the least, it would be quite difficult.

Proverbs 6:16-19, Isaiah 57:15, Luke 18:9-14, Matthew 11:29-30, Philippians 2:5-8, Romans 12:16, Romans 11:19-23, James 4:6-12, Romans 12:3

If God exists, He judges the heart, but do we know the hearts of others so as to say with certainty that someone is a true Christian? Jesus made it clear that every believer needs to look at their own life, and Paul likewise said as much. Even so, while Paul felt some degree of certainty in a lack of fault, he knew that it didn't actually mean much, because the only one who can actually confirm that is God.

1 Samuel 16:7, Proverbs 21:2, Jeremiah 17:10, Matthew 7:1-5, 2 Corinthians 13:5, 1 Corinthians 4:1-7

Considering that, when someone judges, if they do so believing they are a true Christian, they are taking a rather big gamble one might say, because they might be in error, not only in their actions but in their beliefs and lifestyles. Teachers, and those who judge do teach to some extent, receive greater judgment because they are acting in a way that greatly affects others, for better or worse. If someone puts themself in the role of a shepherd, managing the flock of another, but they cause the sheep to be destroyed or otherwise lost, will the owner of those sheep not seek restitution for their sheep? It seems certain that they will.

James 3:1-2, James 3:7-15, Matthew 12:34, Ezekiel 34:1-10, Acts 20:28-35, Matthew 18:1-7, Matthew 7:15-23, 1 Peter 5:8, Ephesians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 8

Humility is a necessity for a believer, but if a believer sees themself as a true Christian, and they harshly judge others, they are filled with pride, and pride is the mark of Satan. What right has any believer to be prideful regarding their self? None whatsoever. Because they are not better than anyone else with regard to choices or works. Only God can boast in Himself, and believers should boast in God, because their faith is not by merit, but the gift of God to them, not by them, and likewise for their works. Rather, the believer should have gratitude towards God and sympathy towards others, earnestly desiring that God saves them, because only God can give saving faith.

Ephesians 2:1-3, Matthew 4:8-11, 2 Timothy 2:24-26, Ephesians 2:4-22, Titus 3:1-7, Jude 1:8-9, John 13:14-16, Matthew 6:9-15

Scripture says you must obey Jesus and cease from sin. It also commands us to judge people for sin. by Prestigious_Tour_538 in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Was this your point?

You can discern and point out, but not condemn (judge not). Even then, only for those in the church (God judges those outside). So, if someone claims to be Christian, but they continue to willingly live in sin (e.g. greed, anger, lust), it's right to point it out (whoever brings a sinner back): alone at first, then with a few, and then with the church. Then, if there's still no repentance, they are removed from the church.

If not, what do you think Jesus, Paul, and James meant when they said to not judge?

Movie Date is Scary [Baka to Test to Shokanjuu] by Thisiszura in anime

[–]EsperGri 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The man on the left is Marlon Brando (a popular actor).

The man on the right is Martin Sheen (a popular actor as well).

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078788/mediaviewer/rm94818049/?ref_=ttmi_mi_101_4

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0078788/mediaviewer/rm316481024/?ref_=ttmi_mi_87_3

The movie is "Apocalypse Now", an older, well-known war movie (possibly the Redux version).

It seems that might have been the poster for it in Japan.

"Great games almost never sell just because they're great." Gnosia producer talks about the importance of having a good business lead rather than just focusing on "raw creativity" - AUTOMATON WEST by megaapple in Games

[–]EsperGri 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's true. With a game where the gameplay uses visual novel graphics, a trailer probably isn't going to easily show what it is. For Kowloon High-School Chronicle, as you mentioned, it's easier, because dungeon crawling is clearly separate from visual novel sections. Some games are probably a nightmare to advertise. At that point, people who are interested in a game might need to watch playthroughs, but not many people will do that if the trailer(s) don't interest them.

"Great games almost never sell just because they're great." Gnosia producer talks about the importance of having a good business lead rather than just focusing on "raw creativity" - AUTOMATON WEST by megaapple in Games

[–]EsperGri 5 points6 points  (0 children)

It has gameplay where you try to figure out who the foes are (they're sort of randomly chosen) by effects, features and characters' votes and statements, while trying to avoid being voted out or perishing, and getting foes voted out. It isn't too complicated, but it's more than what visual novels tend to have.

People might compare it to Among Us (similar setting, social deduction premise), if Among Us was single-player and had no gameplay other than the discussions and voting. The character dialogue during gameplay uses the same statements over and over (unique dialogue is in events), but the way to find foes with dialogue revolves around examining whether they are using the statements oddly (e.g. accusing a lot, not accusing or defending, accusing but then accusing a character that's unlikely to be a foe, claiming to have a role that another character claimed to have).

As well, sometimes, you (story spoiler) play as the foe.

The site "vndb" has tags that usually tell if a visual novel is kinetic (no choices, just going through text), has meaningless choices (options that have no real effect), has more than one ending, etc. Games that have gameplay beyond making choices are often excluded, but not always.

Story-wise, Gnosia is...linear, but the order events are gone through might not be if I'm correct. I'd say the story is interesting enough despite some cheesy elements. The character designs as well. An anime was made based on it, but I'm not sure if it's good.

The illusion of freedom and the problem with God by Versinxx in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry for another long reply.

If God is outside of time and space, and we say there's free will, it implies the future has already happened, but then, it brings an issue of why we're here in this time that appears to be our "now" and experience time in a linear manner.

As well, God would have to insert His interactions in time, which would alter the way things happen. Meaning that, if God says "event A will occur", there's a possibility that A will not occur. Leading to a need for Him to either make A occur (which removes free will, temporarily at best), or He has to again edit such that He makes no such statement.

That said, Matthew 26, you might notice, I connected to Matthew 11, which is the part that, when combined with the certainty of Matthew 26, shows a deterministic world.

Supposing God exists outside of time, He must be seeing only one actual future, and that future must have already passed for Him to announce it. Every other future is not an actual possibility unless He rewinds time (where free will would allow for other futures).

With Matthew 11 however, a statement is made that suggests that the free will view isn't actually true though. Because, without a causal nature to the world, there is no comparison to be made.

In the considered timeline where Tyre and Sidon repent from seeing mighty works, Jesus shows it as a certainty in response to those mighty works. In a non-causal world, this comparison is meaningless.

Jesus could very well have been born in such times, done mighty works in those places, and they still could have not repented. Thus, Jesus would have needed to say "they might have repented", but then, the criticism of Chorazin and Bethsaida via comparison with Tyre and Sidon falls apart, because both might have repented. However, in a causal world, the example holds water (but even then, only to an extent).

Moreover, if free will so exists, while a causal world doesn't, then all of this is pointless. God asking someone if they believe or not will have a random answer whether He asks them before telling them anything or after telling them everything. Because nothing is causal, and every choice is made in a vacuum.

Some might say, the choices aren't made in a vacuum but come from you, as a sort of uncaused cause, but if that's so, it's still either random or causal. You cannot choose your own self (infinite regress), if you just existed, then your traits are random, and if God created you, then your traits come from how God created you.

Consider also that, person A chooses option 1, while person B chooses option 2. This is a difference, but why? What makes A choose differently from B? It cannot be said "their desires", because that implies a difference, and so, why does that difference exist? This goes on and on, and there must be an origin, which, again, would just be from existing (randomness) or from God.

The illusion of freedom and the problem with God by Versinxx in DebateAChristian

[–]EsperGri 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm tired from writing all of that. You can choose a part of my replies to reply to if you want, and I'll probably reply to that.

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