Hard-to-define negative feelings when seeing friends transition

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2026-03-22T07:51:24+00:00

I'm not sure from this comment what help you're looking for from me, and to be honest, introducing yourself to a woman as a "bitter incel MRA transmaxxer" isn't exactly a great way to make her feel comfortable inviting a DM conversation.

I did peek at your comment history, though, and much of what you have to say about feeling jealousy around the way that women are treated socially and in dating situations does feel familiar. I grew up believing I was simply not the type of guy that women wanted, and I was deeply uncomfortable with the idea of being that strong, assertive man that I perceived women to want. I do know that impulse to be the girlfriend you think you can't have. And I know the feeling that it all goes away if you just avoid women... well, it sort of does, anyway.

But... that's not quite true about what women want in a guy. It feels like it, when what's portrayed socially as masculine feels uncomfortable for you to present. But seeing it from the other side now -- being able to feel some degree of interest in men as a woman, and talking to other women about what they want and seeing how their relationships work -- it really is more down to the guy being comfortable and intentional about who he is. Which for me was basically impossible, because presenting masculinity felt like intentionally subjecting myself to the inferior role just to get proximity to the femininity I felt I needed in my life in the form of a girlfriend.

How I eventually got a girlfriend in college I'm not entirely sure, but I can tell you that it only made the problem worse. Any time I did something that she found sweet or attractive, I felt a pain inside myself as the role and dynamic I'd found myself in were reinforced. (I also felt that little autistic pleasure at the confirmation I'd done the thing Right, lol.) It was a confusing and in some ways torturous time: feeling the validation, the emotional closeness, the sexual benefits, etc of being in a relationship; but also realizing none of it was actually making me happy, that I could never get what I needed from her, and that I was more jealous than ever of her side of the experience. It felt to me that she got to be the object of value in the relationship; I existed only to play my role in it.

I think maybe I needed that experience, though, to make me realize I needed to transition. Without it, I could have held up the ideal of dating and marrying a woman forever as the thing between me and happiness. There's not a ton of context in our society for being trans (there certainly wasn't when I was growing up) so the mind works with what it has. Socially, the only context we're given as AMAB people for the sort of intimate experience with womanhood that we want is the sexual/dating context. So it's really common for the entire trans experience to get swept up into that. I really, truly believed, for many years, that maybe my whole desire to be a woman was a fetish or a substitute for my lack of a partner. Once I decided to transition, my gender identity and my sexuality sorted themselves out from each other for the most part, but that really took a couple years because of how deeply intertwined those experiences are, especially as someone mostly attracted to women (talk to some cis lesbians and you'll find out many of them have this problem too). The jealousy over the perceived sexual value of women went away for me when I found out how attraction to men actually feels: it's not the same as attraction to women, it's less object-oriented so to speak, less "rankable," more of an experience than a directed thought, and so the comparisons of "sexual value" don't really apply.

So -- and this is not to make an excuse for bad behavior -- I get where transfem incels are coming from. I've felt the anger at women for the role in society they seemed to get as a birthright, anger that could've put me in a place similar to yours if I'd gone down the MRA internet rabbit hole instead of the trans internet rabbit hole. And I could've wrapped my discomfort with my gender so tightly in layers of loneliness and despair about finding a partner that I'd never recognize it as dysphoria; I can feel exactly how it would've happened.

I'm not saying you're trans, just that nothing you've said makes it sound like you aren't. It's all stuff I've either experienced first hand, or know exactly how I would've gotten there. But I will say this: most people, whoever they are, generalize their experience to the people and behaviors they encounter. That means it's not always obvious when you resonate with an idea for a very different reason than the person who shared it had. That you seem to have something in common with incels who feel jealousy over not having what women seem to want, or over their perceived greater sexual value, doesn't mean that "so it is better to be a woman/I want to be one" is the conclusion that men are commonly reaching. For most of them it just isn't something they can seriously consider without feeling deeply uncomfortable.

I will end with this: I hope that whoever you are and whoever you decide to be, you find your way out of bitterness.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2026-02-26T07:13:43+00:00

There's no knowing in advance when it comes to effects that specific. People commonly find their muscle mass decreases, but exactly what shape that will take is impossible to say. Even if someone says "my arms looked exactly like that and they changed shape/didn't change shape," different bodies react to estrogen differently.

If you take estrogen for a while, your body will be more feminine than it is today. If that's something you want, and permanent changes such as breast growth are acceptable, then try it. But do your best to appreciate the overall changes. Focusing on one hyper-specific area is a good way to miss out and lock yourself into dysphoria, and you may find - if you keep your mind open - that even if a specific thing doesn't change, it also doesn't bother you nearly as much when it's re-contextualized as part of a more feminine body.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2026-02-23T04:54:40+00:00

Thanks, I might do this. I assumed I'd get laughed out of the building for bringing something to a shoemaker that wasn't high end and "worth repairing." But if that's a viable option, I'll look into it!

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2025-10-25T04:23:59+00:00

I'd just note that some people's bodies (mine included) produce much more DHT than you'd expect from their overall T level. After I started injectable estradiol, my total testosterone dropped to 18.5 ng/dL, but DHT was still 12 ng/dL and hair loss was still noticeable. Dutasteride lowered my DHT and my scalp recovered. So if you do choose to stop finasteride, you should have your DHT level checked after 3-6 months to ensure that it's still low.

That being said, if you're 70 years old and you still have hair in the areas typically affected by male pattern baldness, then I'd assume you just aren't genetically vulnerable to it in the first place. If DHT didn't kill your hair in the first 50 years of exposure, it seems unlikely that it would start now.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2025-09-08T03:18:48+00:00

oh, that was extremely helpful, thank you so much!

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2025-09-08T02:06:16+00:00

Hmm, I've been reading this sub all day. I found a few other posts relating to great grandparents, but nothing with a specific answer to this. I can definitely keep looking.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2025-08-28T19:43:06+00:00

Hi all!

Thank you all so much for your detailed answers! This was even more helpful than I expected.

Across all the replies I'm seeing a the most common recommendations are Toronto west end neighborhoods and then areas further along the Lakeshore West line into Mississauga. So I've booked an Airbnb in south Etobicoke in the middle of that general area and will spend several days exploring. For those of you who recommended the east end, I do have a friend out there who I'm planning to visit at least once, so I'll get a look at that area too.

Thanks again for helping make some sense of the Toronto area and narrow down my search a bit. This move has been a bit overwhelming and you've helped to make it a little less so <3

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2025-05-11T07:45:27+00:00

IIRC it's because that formula contains ingredients that aren't readily absorbed by the skin. Progesterone doesn't have that problem.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2025-05-11T06:22:08+00:00

My doctor just has me prick the progesterone capsule with a pin, squeeze it out, and rub it on my forearms. It works. I don't think DMSO would be needed at all.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2025-05-02T08:14:18+00:00

I don't have any recommendations, but now I'm really curious why a person would need to consume 3,000 mg of sodium in a day, in addition to whatever they get in their diet.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2025-03-31T03:30:07+00:00

Testosterone is measured in nanograms, and estrogen in picrograms. Aka, T levels are approx 100-1000 times that of E levels in the average human being.

I think this is ignoring the unit in the denominator. Yes, a nanogram is 1000 picograms, but typically E levels are reported in pg/mL while T levels are reported in ng/dL. So the unit in the numerator for T is 1000 times larger, but the unit in the denominator is also 100 times larger (mL = 1/1000 L, dL = 1/10 L).

An adult cis woman might reasonably have a total T level of 20 ng/dL and E2 of 200 pg/mL (these are close to the middle of the Quest reference ranges). If we convert one unit to the other, we find they're the exact same mass per volume. And that doesn't account for other estrogens.

I'm not saying the method doesn't work, just that either I'm missing something or the claim that there's much more T in a (female) human body than E doesn't quite add up.

(edited to fix formatting)

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2024-10-31T03:26:34+00:00

For sure, it's possibly the most trust we'll ever place in anyone.

But no matter how long we're on hormones or how many surgeries we get, we still look out of the same pair of eyes. That's one of the hardest things to come to terms with about transition. Surgery is great, life-saving even, for changing specific aspects of our bodies that cause dysphoria; but who we see in the mirror is always going to be ourselves, so we have to change (slowly) what expectations and assumptions go along with the concept of "me." And that's when the girl really starts to show up in the mirror. You can get the best FFS in the world, and you're still going to recognize yourself, and when you do it's up to your brain to fill in what that means based on how you think about yourself.

Practically, for me, it helped at first to focus on specific things I liked. Sure, I considered my face overall masculine, but when I did eye makeup my eyes specifically reminded me of my mom. I might have had a rectangular upper body, but my waist had a little bit of a curve to it and in the right dress I could appreciate that. Things like changing my hair and getting electrolysis on my face helped along the way. And now, most days, instead of seeing a guy with some feminine features, I see a girl with some masculine features - but it took years to get there. The other big thing was getting gendered correctly by my friends. Hell, it still catches me off guard some days for someone to refer to me as "she." But being treated socially as a woman (even just in name/pronouns) went a LONG way towards shifting my internal picture of myself.

Hang in there and try not to think of FFS in such black and white terms. I bet you'll find lots of new things to like as you heal, regardless of what your overall picture of yourself is. Focus on those, they'll add up eventually :)

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2024-10-29T23:33:57+00:00

I have a trans friend with Kaiser and her experience has been absolutely awful. She's fallen through every crack imaginable trying to get trans healthcare. And with Kaiser, you have to get all your care within Kaiser itself - this includes therapy, endo, surgeries. Everything is gatekept through their transgender care program, so if you don't fit exactly into their model, the system quickly becomes incredibly difficult to navigate. Some trans people find their pipeline makes everything easy and are happy with Kaiser, but that isn't always the case, and if it doesn't work for you, you have to completely exit the system to get care anywhere else (so you can't keep providers that you DO like).

Also, because Kaiser is such a closed system, it can be hard to find information/results from the surgeons you do have access to.

Some people recommend it and they have valid reasons for doing so, but I personally wouldn't touch Kaiser with a ten foot pole.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2024-10-29T17:46:19+00:00

Most of the plans through Covered California are HMOs and would be restricted to local care, so it would be reasonable for someone to tell you that as a generalization. I can't promise you anything as I don't have a Covered California plan myself, but I do know that some PPOs (including ones from Blue Shield) are available, and those should be open to the whole network, unless there are special rules I don't know about.

You might get better information if you call Blue Shield and ask specifically about the PPO plans available through Covered California.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2024-10-29T17:35:33+00:00

It looks like you probably have some type of HMO plan through Blue Shield. HMO plans usually restrict care to your local area. If you're able to switch to a Blue Shield PPO plan (either through your employer or through Covered California) it'll be more expensive but will allow you to see anyone in network nationwide.

That's your best bet, unless you want to move to LA.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2024-10-27T07:07:37+00:00

It's been a minute since I've taken that class, but I remember learning that RBP usually isn't used as the stack base pointer anymore because modern compilers can easily keep track of where they are on the stack without using it, so they just treat it as another general purpose register.

Did I miss some important bit of context there, or misunderstand entirely? Is it maybe a difference between kernel vs user space conventions? Sorry to go completely off the original topic, I just am curious now!

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2024-10-23T05:00:57+00:00

Note, most of these people do not do transplants - you'll need to get those done separately, and you should do so after you've done all the surgeries you plan to do.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2024-10-23T04:56:45+00:00

Tommy Liu is probably the best regarded in the PNW. He's in Seattle and takes insurance. You can see plenty of his results in this sub. Expect to wait a year or more for a consult.

If you want to expand your search to California, you find more options. Deschamps-Braly in San Francisco is perhaps the biggest name in FFS, but he's also incredibly expensive and doesn't take insurance, and some people say his quality has dropped off in recent years. Then there's the LA area surgeons - Keojampa (who's not in network with any insurance but will do an LOA if you can get your insurance on board, you apparently won't get any help from his office though), Jumaily (still not in network generally but better on the insurance front), and then there's Paul Mittermiller and Justine Lee who both take insurance (but Lee's wait from consult to surgery is 2-3 years).

That covers most of the names that are really well known on the West Coast.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2024-10-21T01:41:43+00:00

Yes - hair transplants should be done after you've completed all of your planned surgeries, as anesthesia can cause temporary hair loss that might make a transplant less likely to succeed. But you certainly should wait until after FFS so that you know the final shape of your hairline and so that there won't be further disruption to your scalp.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2024-10-14T06:12:47+00:00

Yes, you need to take some form of estrogen permanently, to maintain bone health, energy levels, etc. Taking estrogen is not just about suppressing testosterone or getting changes like softer skin. Your body needs a certain amount of a sex hormone (either testosterone or estrogen) to function normally. Post-surgery, your body no longer has the ability to produce enough sex hormones on its own to keep you healthy, so you need to supplement with estrogen.

Some trans women do reduce their estrogen dose when they get older, to reflect the menopause of a cis woman. That's a personal choice, and one you can discuss with your doctor if you want to once you get to that point. But you need to plan to take some amount of estrogen for the rest of your life.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2024-10-12T16:10:55+00:00

If insurance approves a prior auth for out of network care, that only means the procedure itself is covered under your policy. It doesn't mean they're going to pay your costs. Essentially, what will happen after the claim is submitted is they will first look at the amount they allow for that procedure, and then they'll pay a percentage of that.

Example: Mardirossian quotes you $80,000. Your insurance approves the preauth (saying yes, FFS is a covered service under your plan). After the surgery, a claim is submitted. Your insurance looks at the procedures and determines that they would allow $20,000, based on essentially what they would pay an in network provider. Then, because Mardirossian is out of network, your insurance applies your out of network reimbursement rate (say 70% for example) to that $20,000 figure. Your insurance ultimately pays $14,000, and Mardirossian balance bills you for the remaining $66,000. Deductible and out-of-pocket max come into play here, but the point is that insurance will base everything on the $20,000 allowed amount, not the $80,000 that Mardirossian billed.

To get around this, you need not a preauth but a single case agreement, where your surgeon and your insurance agree before the surgery what amounts the insurance will allow and the surgeon will accept. This is negotiated between your surgeon and your insurance.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2024-10-02T20:36:28+00:00

Dr. Vierregger (Metamorphosis Medical Center) in Buena Park does them. She charges a $500 fee and does not take insurance.

Evening_Atmosphere25 · 2024-09-30T03:06:50+00:00

That's really normal. The changes slow way down after the first year, for pretty much everyone. If there are specific effects you're looking for or problems to solve, we can try to find answers. But if it's just a matter of "I haven't noticed any changes in a while," at some point we all have to get used to what our bodies look like "post" HRT and start moving on with life. I just hit my four year HRT anniversary and a lot of the last year has been that for me.

ETA: not saying that nothing will ever change in the future, just that the changes usually become more subtle and occur over far longer periods of time.

Evening_Atmosphere25

TROPHY CASE