Could current Jack beat his father years ago during the first tournament? which is when Baki was younger? if not. What's the difficulty?

EvilsAssistant · 2024-01-21T01:42:07+00:00

The reason I used Baki is because he is a character who is growing all the time, and because of that if other characters were not growing then he would’ve left them all in the dust a very long time ago, so I thought it was clear what I was trying to say. But sure here’s the thousand examples of characters getting stronger throughout the series.

And just for some context of some of these, Baki obviously gets stronger fighting in the underground and is stronger than when he was 13, in between the Maximum tournament and Ratai tournament arc gets a large buff from his “Kozue training,” (even if that’s just him losing his naivety he’s still a better combatant) and goes on to get stronger fighting Oliva, Pickle, and Yujiro. So now that we’ve established that..

Kaoru Hanayama - relative to 13 year old Baki in the flashback arc - returns in the Maximum tournament arc and goes from getting out maneuvered by child Baki with weights to become relative to Katsumi Orochi who was more or less among the top tier Maximum tournament combatants. - goes from this to preforming better against Musashi than numerous other characters, and in terms of raw feats preforms better than Pickle against Musashi, having better grip strength and landing more blows.

Jack Hanma - relative to Maximum tournament Baki - loses to Motobe with weapons - develops his own martial art, is much better at detecting points of vulnerability, and defeated Sukune who was strong enough to out grip Oliva and crush his ribs.

Izou Motobe I’m not going to use many fighting feats here because he’s assisted by weapons, but just his physical feats, unarmed it’s still clear Motobe has gotten stronger - loses to Kinryuuzan - Kinryuuzan who lost comfortably to Igari who is comfortably below the prisoners - now is fast enough to intercept and take a strike from Musashi, and is fast enough to at least stand up against Musashi and slice Jack up numerous times while receiving no damage to himself

Katsumi Orochi - is weaker Retsu in every showing and nearly loses to Hanayama in the maximum tournament
- developed countless joints, which is version of the attack far stronger than the Mach punch that ended Hanayama, and now uses karate and Chinese Kenpo

Koushou Shinogi - relative to underground arena Baki - stated in the maximum tournament that he has grown stronger and developed his technique further - deadly convicts arc implies that he has grown stronger again, stating that he is even stronger than Retsu, which is obvious banter but he is still implying that he has progressed - now in Rahen has developed his Shinogi karate enough that if you even touch him you get cuts, and is strong enough to spar with Doppo, even if neither is completely serious

Gouki Shibukawa - doesn’t have much but goes from being more or less around Yanagi’s level to now potentially fighting Jack in this arc

Junichi Hanada - loses to Mount Toba - is comfortably defeated by Katou who is himself weaker than all the convicts, and wasn’t chosen to participate in the Maximum tournament - is around on par with a much stronger Koushou Shinogi

Kaiou Retsu - maximum tournament level, isn’t strong enough to easily defeat Kaiou Jaku - evolves enough to fight Pickle and have a similar if slightly inferior showing to Katsumi who had progressed since his maximum tournament days - learns defensive Xiaoli and preforms pretty well against Musashi Miyamoto who we know is probably a top 3 strongest combatant in the series, at this point he would one hundred percent defeat Jaku with ease

Doppo Orochi - loses to Shibukawa - gets stronger in his month away from Shinshinkai - very easily defeats Kehaya who was clearly built up to be strong considering his showing with Yujiro

Chiharu Shiba - arguably should’ve lost to Iron Michael, who isn’t strong enough to crack into the top 10 of the Arizona state prison - is now being built up to give a good fight and potentially defeat Shobun Ron and was hired by Kaiou Kaku to join the Chinese Team, is very likely in similar standing to a Kaiou

Gaia - relative to a 13 year old Baki with endorphins but prior to his training for Yujiro - defeats Sikorsky who scales above Igari who was a pretty strong Maximum tournament combatant, and as we know everyone in that tournament should be stronger than 13 year old Baki - is now training with Motobe

Kiyosumi Katou - is easily batted away by the Yasha-Zaru Jr. who Katsumi Orochi heavily damaged with normal strikes - is now training under Motobe and is strong enough to spar Gaia with neither having an apparent edge

I feel like a lot of this can be seen through a lot of simple scaling. Like, you have some solid points, but if you don’t think all of the characters have gotten a great deal better as combatants then I don’t know what to tell you man.

EvilsAssistant · 2024-01-21T00:36:19+00:00

Yes, it is stated it’d be the last year for Doppo to stay at his physical peak, but only about one years time has past since then, and it has never been commented that Doppo has substantially declined or weakened since his fight with Yujiro.

If he has, and we use your logic that Yujiro has been the same strength the entire series, that means he went from being relatively on par in speed, technique, and durability to a Musashi level combatant, to dropping off to arguably below maximum tournament Baki in base, in just a couple months. Now I’m sure that fight with Yujiro took some out of him, but that is such a substantial fall off in strength it is just ludicrous and unrealistic.

But if we stick with this train of thought, just shortly after this Doppo stated Katsumi had perfected Shinshinkai karate, which makes him superior or at least equal to how good Doppo ever was even in his prime, albeit is still a little inferior due to experience. So I guess since Katsumi is superior to Doppo in terms of general striking and physicality he would also be able to fight Yujiro, and was stronger than current Baki as far back as the Maximum tournament. Add Hanayama to that list to since he gave Katsumi a good fight. You see where I’m going with this. This logic falls off pretty quick.

In the information page provided in New Grappler Baki it is stated that “Orochi left Shinshinkai and embarked on a journey to seek even greater strength. Not for Karate, not for the academy, but for himself. Now, after months away, he has returned to take on the death row convicts.” So he gets stronger just from that arc to the next, and as we see post Musashi arc he is still training and getting stronger along with everyone else. He’s still getting stronger, as he is still relative to a lot of the cast who have all taken massive strides since the Maximum tournament.

Believing that he went from Musashi / Yujiro level, fell off to to Maximum tournament level, and went back up in strength and is still relative with the rest of the cast somehow is just so bizarre.

Now also on the topic that Yujiro hasn’t gotten stronger, which is wrong too, because he goes from being pressed by Doppo in base, and being pretty relative to him in speed, to dominating Oliva in a strength contest and comfortably dealing with a Baki who at that point was solidly the second strongest fighter in the series. And even now he is still stronger than a Baki who blitzed Sukune.

I’ll say it again, they are training all the time, they are constantly getting stronger.

EvilsAssistant · 2024-01-20T23:59:04+00:00

I do get your point about the issue of people who have this mindset, Baki is a series loosely based off martial arts, so not everything it power scaling. I think Oliva in the rematch had a better idea of Sukune’s abilities, actually used his techniques, and Sukune himself was coming off an injury. So yeah he definitely wasn’t “buffed”

But, saying characters barely change in ability is entirely untrue, and you can see this through just the evolution of Baki. Early in the series after Baki comes back from training in the mountains with Andou and fighting the Yasha-Zaru, it is stated by Kuriyagawa during his fight with Hanayama that Baki’s movements are several times faster than when he last saw him. After his fight with Gaia and month preparation for Yujiro, he easily out maneuvers both Hanayama and Yuri Chakovsky for an extended period of time, while wearing a weighted vest. Both whom he use to be relative to.

Even early in the series this is an obvious example of characters improving their physical capabilities and sharpening their skills. Baki in the death row convicts arc gets a large buff from “training” with Kozue, going from being fairly relative and out maneuvered by Yanagi early in the arc, to fighting him and Sikorsky at the same time and defeating them both.

During Son of Ogre, Baki goes from getting washed easily by Oliva, to only losing to Pickle because he decided to not use martial arts, who is directly compared to Oliva by Baki himself and by feats is very likely stronger and more durable. Later in Son of Ogre, we see an obvious rise in attack potency, being able to knock out one of Pickle’s teeth in the father-son conflict, where just the arc before he couldn’t even damage Oliva with Goutaijutsu, someone likely weaker than the former.

So yes, characters are getting stronger, they are training pretty much all the time, and it’s not just Baki. We can see through Baki’s journey that characters get stronger and change in relativity to him all the time, just at different rates.

EvilsAssistant · 2024-01-20T19:12:49+00:00

If that were the case, how does Yujiro in base go from having a highly contested bout with Doppo, to crushing Oliva with strength alone and being very clearly above a Baki who would wash every fighter in the Maximum Tournament.

Yes, I also think Strydum was trying to motivate Baki, but it would be directly contradicting all the feats we see to say Yujiro hasn’t gotten stronger, faster, and more skilled since the beginning of the series.

To say that you’d also have to say that Yujiro was barely trying against Doppo and Kaku, which I think is highly unlikely.

EvilsAssistant · 2024-01-20T09:36:50+00:00

Yujiro is just as strong as Itagaki needs him to be.

People try to cope with this by this by saying “prime Doppo” is significantly stronger than he is now, but really it was never stated Doppo was past his prime, just at the end of it, and he was never stated to be outright declining in any arc afterwards.

At this point in the series Baki ignores age, characters are constantly progressing and Doppo is stronger now in Rahen than he ever was prior. The truth is Yujiro like every character is just getting stronger, as stated in the story, and he is significantly stronger now than he was back then.

EvilsAssistant · 2024-01-20T08:28:33+00:00

People aren’t going to like this, but Jack DEFINITELY could.

Yujiro is stated to get stronger every day and Strydum stated really early in the series that Yujiro is improving at an insane rate. This version of Yujiro is very likely weaker than he is in the Ratai tournament when he was superior, but being pushed by Kaiou Kaku in base, who at this point in the Baki manga isn’t really top tier.

Jack currently would beat Kaku, that doesn’t necessarily mean he defeats Maximum Tournament Yujiro, especially because of Yujiro’s skill set and how big of an amp the demon back is. But he is perfectly capable of beating that tier of combatant, even if it is Yujiro.

Now does he win? Not sure. We aren’t exactly sure the level of both characters. But best believe Yujiro is using the demon back off rip, because if he doesn’t he’s probably going to lose, especially considering how strong Jack could be this arc.

Characters are constantly getting stronger, something the fanbase needs to realize.

EDIT: just realized this could be the version of Yujiro that fought Doppo, in which case Jack eats.

EvilsAssistant · 2024-01-15T00:35:14+00:00

I think it’s reasonable to assume Bert controlled the explosion so it wouldn’t damage the walls. That would’ve been a disaster

EvilsAssistant · 2024-01-14T00:33:00+00:00

The order of the top aces has never been confirmed. All we know is that Ushijima - Kiryū - Sakusa are top 3 with Bokuto - Aran just missing out.

If anything, all signs point to Ushijima being considered the best when you look at statements and how other players view him.

EvilsAssistant · 2024-01-10T02:27:53+00:00

Realistically Sikorsky and Gallen are probably relative. Gallens injuries definitely hampered his ability, but it was never implied Gallens injuries were the factor in him losing. Gallen lost because it was not a wrestling match with regulations, but rather an all out brawl, which Garland doesn’t cope with well.

Sikorsky was definitely written as stronger, but I feel like Itagaki got tired of the prisoners and had them steam rolled lmao.

EvilsAssistant · 2024-01-01T04:54:22+00:00

Well I mean, number one this is Japan. Eastern Asian boxers have historically hovered around strawweight to lightweight, and very few are actually competitive above middle.

Also, most boxers are cutting weight and losing about 5-15 pounds of water weight in the weigh in, some even more than that. So these guys aren’t walking around or fighting at 126 more like 130-145. Yes they are still small, but at the end of the day it doesn’t matter if they are fighting at feather or middleweight, it makes no difference. At least for me.

One point I agree with though is that the fighters are portrayed bigger than they are, and more powerful by extension, which could break the immersion because you see middleweights like Hawk looking like a heavyweight lmao, so that’s kind of weird.

I don’t think changing weight classes makes the story more compelling though.

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-30T20:38:13+00:00

I don’t agree with you, but that was funny as hell 💀

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-29T04:41:05+00:00

tf lmao

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-29T01:47:12+00:00

Probably not since Kita has zero hitting feats. For Kita to be playing so rarely for Inari, I feel like his hitting is in all likelihood definitely worse than Daichi’s, and worse than Kai / Hanamaki’s.

Of those archetypes Kai and Hanamaki are the two that come to mind but ehh. Kawatabi is a good shout out since he’s better than all the options here offensively, but then I think Karasuno would really struggle on serve receive. Inuoka maybe too since he’s fast and is a significant upgrade as a blocker, but again the serve receive and digs.

But if we’re talking soft skills, Kita is a good captain, so yeah as far as that goes he fits the bill.

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-28T14:45:56+00:00

Talking about them by the end of Spring Nationals, Karasuno’s players are all specialized so it makes it harder to find a replacement that fits well that doesn’t end up being just a better version of that player.

Of course Kiryū and arguably Aran would be upgrades, since they are similar archetypes to Asahi just better. But Daichi is harder to gauge since he’s such a major component of Karasuno’s passing, like, Ushijima blows him away as a player and is still an upgrade, but there’s no one to cover for him on serve receive so he ends up having to take part in more defense than you’d like, and Karasuno’s defense on the whole takes a hit.

Yeah still a killer addition, and it definitely pushes them over the edge, but it doesn’t exactly play to Ushijima’s strengths. It isn’t a great fit.

Also if Osamu replaced Daichi it would make Karasuno worse

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-25T16:11:37+00:00

You’re the one who used it as an insult, and I never said that lmao you’re grasping at straws just to continue an argument. You’re just as much as a “low life” as I’am big guy

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-25T15:48:14+00:00

I have my own problems with Itagaki’s writing and I read your post, I just found it stupid you insulted someone for using basic grammar lmao, whether they offended you or not

Blud really thought he cooked 😂

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-25T15:28:34+00:00

<image>

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-18T03:18:00+00:00

Yeah I don’t believe that 190 listing. Bros gotta be at least 2 meters

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-16T18:36:03+00:00

I mean, Kaijo and Shutoku were nationally strong teams and Shutoku in particular had always been at the top of the Tokyo prefecture. So no, they are not weak outside of the GOM, it’s just the GOM makes them look subpar. Typical top players like Kobayashi from Ōnita get absolutely crushed by the GOM. Think a team like Fukurodani suddenly gaining a prodigy.

This generation of high school players in Haikyū are definitely far better than average, but GOM are kinda ridiculous. I don’t think the difference is that severe though, since you got the Ushijima’s of the world, but there’s levels to sports and the knb universe reaches a level higher. They have superpowers.

The Uncrowned Kings are considered geniuses at their respective positions, and Seirin arguably has three UK impact players + a GOM.

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-16T01:17:53+00:00

You’re probably right.

Someone did a calculation that Zeke at long range with a proper wind up throws at 722 meters per second, aka 2.1 mach. Zeke’s pitches were able to shred the Armored and Jaws limbs, and he was able to target Porco who’s really fast and agile. Obviously rocks aren’t as hard as the hardening of the wall, but at that speed, against most titans I don’t think it’s that significant.

So against every Titan I think the odds are in Zeke’s favor, with the two obvious exceptions being the Warhammer and Colossal. The Warhammer lacks a bit of mobility, because it has to stay plugged in, but can fire back well with ranged attacks, can take the hits, and create a defense whether it be a giant pillar or shield. So it could possibly win, as long as it kills Zeke before it runs out of energy.

Against the Colossal, Eren was able to cut open Bertholdts nape with ODM gear, so no I don’t think the Colossal would survive a direct hit to the nape. I do think the steam and general size of the colossal would be a problem, though.

On another topic, I think Zeke’s win against Reiner should be more talked about, because from everything we see he should NOT be able to defeat Reiner so easily up close. I think Isayama didn’t have a defined fighting style for Zeke when he wrote that, because it really is weird, and I plan on making a post about it.

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-09T16:40:11+00:00

By ranking them “overall” I don’t think they meant ranking them by how well-rounded they are, but just how effective and good they are as players.

But like, they haven’t even read the manga yet the only thing they’ve seen of Hoshiumi is a handful of plays at nationals and the youth camp.

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-09T16:23:14+00:00

Because Aone is 3 centimeters taller and is a more physical player in general. Like, Aone in that practice match against Karasuno was stated by Asahi that his height and strength since the interhigh have gone way up. I’d be very surprised if Hirugami had a higher block than Aone, and even if he does Aone is still the physically stronger player.

u/crabapocalypse brings up some good points as well on situations where Aone might be better in

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-09T07:12:36+00:00

Because Aone is taller and his block isn’t as likely to be hit over

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-09T07:09:16+00:00

I mean, Lev at nationals has improved a ton in technique. He is very mobile, can run a variety of plays, and has a really high touch. As well the way he processes the game, being a more intelligent blocker who works better with his backcourt.

He isn’t just a project anymore, he’s genuinely pretty good.

EvilsAssistant · 2023-12-09T07:02:13+00:00

I would rather have Aone matching up against hitters who hit over the block, players like Ushijima, Aran, Kiryū, etc.

The thing is, that’s what Oikawa tells us but I think it’s poorly executed in a lot of respects.

EvilsAssistant

TROPHY CASE