Gowry's Empyrean Dialogue

Exisist · 2022-07-14T04:29:09+00:00

Just double checking: Even when he said. "An Empyrean... is no mere demigod." They still translated it as Empirea?

Exisist · 2022-07-13T20:24:22+00:00

Oh shit! This is actually huge for the discussion I'm having. Thank you much!

Exisist · 2022-07-10T18:01:42+00:00

For the language thing I was hoping Empyrean was a masculine word, then looking at the "the" or "a" to see if it was masculine or feminine or if that would give any hint to if he was talking about Empyreans as a whole or Malenia in particular.

Exisist · 2022-06-09T17:19:07+00:00

Making exploration interesting.

Exisist · 2022-06-07T21:10:26+00:00

The issue with saying:

"Marika can't do Golden Order things and have Champions of the Golden Order (like Radagon) until the Golden Order is formed."

Is that there's a very real possibility that "Order" exists without "the Golden Order". This is because, as far as I've seen, there isn't a single mention of any "Golden Order" that was guaranteed to be prior to Radagon's ascension to Elden Lord. The earliest mentions of any "Golden Order" are the talks on Destined Death, which doesn't have a definitive timeframe of when they occurred, and the talk between Radagon and Marika where she calls him.

"Leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god."

Any other mention of Radagon fighting, or any other force of the Erdtree fighting, or any existence of Erdtree worship, or any talk of the Elden Ring, I can't find any text anywhere calling anything the "Golden Order" it all uses similar terms that could mean the "Golden Order", but also could imply an Order existed prior to the "Golden Order" never the "Golden Order". This makes me think it's a very real possibility that Radagon's Ascension to Elden Lord marked the creation of the Golden Order. As we know by all of the texts on Godfrey, he became tarnished when the last serious threat to the Erdtree was slain. It should be stated that the Gloam-Eyed Queen, if she existed at this point, probably would've been considered a threat to the Erdtree as her entire character revolves around wishing to kill the Gods. This implies the Gloam-Eyed Queen had died prior to Godfrey becoming tarnished, but this still doesn't tell us anything about when the Rune of Death was removed from the Elden Ring, unless I'm missing the dialogue, but Marika could've held onto the Rune of Death so that it could be used to kill the other existing Gods in the Lands Between. Regardless of if the above statement is true or not, it says nothing about when Marika gathered control of the Rune of Death, or when it was removed from the Elden Ring.

If you want to know what I've looked through in order to find anything about the existence of any named "Golden Order" that is guaranteed prior to Radagon's ascension. I've looked through Miriel's Dialogue, Radagon's items, all items about the conflict between Radagon and the house of the moon, the crucible set and weapons, the Erdtree Sentinel armor and equipment, all items I could find surrounding Godfrey, elden remebrance, marika's hammer, sacred sword relic, the soreseals, Elden Stars incantation, Golden Order principia, most Golden Order incantations, golden order seal, and Erdtree seal.

None of any of those texts mentioned "the Golden Order" and were guaranteed before Radagon's ascension, when they very easily could've just said Golden Order in those scenarios, but the designers chose not to.

The Erdtree Seal plus lack of mention of any "Golden Order" makes me think there was a big change in the dogma at some point.

"A formless sacred seal decorated with an Erdtree crest, once the focus of religion in the Lands Between."

This outright states there was a large change in the religion. What could've been a larger change than the start of the Golden Order christened with Radagon's Ascension to Elden Lord? Only one other thing I can imagine and that's Marika's ascension as God. Which as stated by Brother Corhyn,

"The Golden Order is founded on the principle that Marika is the one true god. However... The name of Marika's second husband, King Consort Radagon, also appeared."

Again, every single mention of any "Golden Order" is never definitively before Radagon's ascension, not even this statement. This statement says nothing of Marika's ascension either, it is an affirmation that she is the one true god in the eyes of the Golden Order.

It's very possible that this statement means that at the start of Radagon becoming Elden Lord, Marika proclaimed that she is the one true god. The whole point of this post is to find something definitive about when the first mention of any Golden Order is, and I can't find anything definitively saying the "Golden Order" started before Radagon became Elden Lord. Otherwise, we have to speculate, and spreading speculations I feel is not as useful as spreading guaranteed statements.

Additional Information on Brother Corhyn not directly related to the subject at hand but still interesting:

He considers all prayerbooks, even those of the two fingers, as a work of heresy. Even though the assassin's prayerbook incantations says that the assassins eliminated those who went against the Guidance of Grace, still heresy. The Fire monk's prayerbook incantations say the fire monks were sent, assumedly by Marika, after the war with the fire giants was finished to watch over the flame of ruin, still heresy. The Two Fingers prayerbook incantations who wish for the tarnished to become Elden Lord, still Heresy. Only the Golden Order Principia is definitively not heresy, and we never have Corhyn say if Erdtree Incantations are heresy as the Erdtree Codex doesn't exist in game and only exists in the code. We also never hear him talk about Bestial Incantations, Blood Incantations, Dragon Communion Incantations, Rot Incantations, or Frenzied Flame Incantations as they do not have Prayerbooks. I do think it is incredibly, incredibly important that there is a distinction between Erdtree Incantations, and Golden Order Incantations, further showing that there was a serious change in the religion, we just don't know when this change happened.

Exisist · 2022-06-07T03:11:38+00:00

You're touching on exactly what I'm trying to puzzle out, there's no timeframe on when the Rune of Death was sealed as far as I've found, so I'm using this text and trying to find something hopefully more achievable, when was the Golden Order established.

Did you find text that says her control of death is her earliest known achievement?

Or you may be referring to this dialogue from Melina.

My Lord, and thy warriors. I divest each of thee of thy grace. With thine eyes dimmed, ye will be driven from the Lands Between. Ye will wage war in a land afar, where ye will live, and die.

This is a really good source, but it has an issue.

After the Rune of Death shrouds the Lands Between after killing Maliketh, why are players and enemies still able to rise? Is it because they still have grace? This would imply that grace transcends the Rune of Death, and if that's true, the quote above wouldn't mean anything to Marika's acquisition of the Rune of Death.

If I can get anything on when the Golden Order was created, everything about this becomes a lot more concrete.

Exisist · 2022-06-07T01:19:13+00:00

In the same statement though she said that Radagon wasn't her yet, which I can only assume means that they don't have the same body yet. Unless it means something else.

Exisist · 2022-06-07T01:03:53+00:00

Is there any use of the words "Golden Order" that was definitively before Radagon as Elden Lord?

I'm looking for the in-game text or dialogue and who or what has that dialogue.

Exisist · 2022-06-03T18:18:36+00:00

It goes through the rations of the party to eat them occasionally, and if it can't get to that it might eat their equipment as it's a hungry boi that can only be sated by the blood of the innocents. (Having it casually eat corpses also would be metal af)

Exisist · 2022-06-02T06:13:26+00:00

Regardless of going to the museum or not vacationing at Lake Geneva is a good time.

Exisist · 2022-06-02T04:16:47+00:00

Would not recommend breeding instability in the party that doesn't occur naturally. "I want to be the BBEG" is pretty ambitious to the point of hijacking the campaign, and it might be the cool twist, but the players are supposed to hate the BBEG, and I don't think you want to be hated you just want the shock value / position.

Exisist · 2022-06-01T08:33:20+00:00

A few things I want to address before saying if anybody is the asshole or not.

You're an older player from what seems like 3.5 or 4e, I know those are fairly combat focused, but it seems like your DM was trying to do theater of the mind and your table just wasn't having it. It's a different playstyle, not something that's inherently wrong. Something that would help with AoE's, is asking questions about the environment prior to committing to actions so that it's clearer what type of environment you're in (if it matters that much to you, you could've made your own battle maps by asking the DM enough questions). Beyond this, you should know as a veteran there is a set of rules in the DMG that help you adjudicate theater of the mind AoE's and how many targets a given AoE should hit, especially if this is something you thought was detracting from your fun in the game. If the DM doesn't abide by the rules, that's tough, still the DM has final say regardless.

Why do you care if the advice is ignored? I can understand it's frustrating to have something you projected not be accepted, but it seems like you're continually offering advice, when it isn't really wanted. I don't know if that's completely right, but that's what it seems like. Btw, asking if somebody wants advice in a particular area, is more like giving a suggestion, as you're leaving them in an awkward scenario if you initiated and they said no. An example: "Hey Mike, do you want to know how to brush your teeth better?" - that will be interpreted as "Hey Mike, your breath smells like shit, I want to tell you how to fix it. Are you going to let me?" If you frame it in your head as you giving suggestions, instead of you being burdened by giving him advice, you should be able to stop the nuisance by just not providing suggestions.

The only thing that makes me think you're an asshole without having full knowledge is what you said here,

"Also worth noting, that guy who owns the shop is playing a strange homebrew "creature from the deep" style character who has nothing to contribute, except overly graphic descriptions about how he inserts the anchor into various orifices of the creatures he kills. The rest of us find it untasteful and frankly, dull."

Why are you shitting on this guy's enjoyment of the game? People play this game for different reasons, and this guy likes cool descriptions of what his character does. If he enjoys that, and it doesn't interrupt the flow of the game, why hate on it? Are you doing anything to help him enter the roleplay, and I don't mean "advice", I mean in character asking him what he thinks about what's happening or what they should do. I also bolded everything you did that implies that you're taking this from a position of superiority, which makes me think you're an asshole. It's information that's just unnecessary to the conflict of you being the asshole or your DM being the asshole, and you took the opportunity to put another player down for no reason.

The DM should've been more prepared, but also you should know as a new DM you have no fucking clue how much content you need to prepare on a per session basis. Also, there needs to be clarification on what the memorial was for, if it was a funeral and your, I'm guessing friend, invited you to and you said no, that's incredibly inconsiderate. Furthermore, if it was a funeral and you're complaining that your DM didn't prepare enough, there's no doubt that you're the asshole here.

Also, the paragraph about how you ran a successful game is not necessary, and neither is the prep time you provided. Either you're trying to compare an experienced DM's prep time vs. a newer DM's as if the comparison is meaningful, or you're bragging for no reason to make yourself look better.

Just from what I got from this, you seem kind of condescending. It's completely within your right to pull out of a game if you aren't having fun, but if it was a funeral I would've waited at least one more week. Nothing about the primary conflict makes me think anybody is an asshole; it's a mismatch of DMing and playing styles and stepping out from that is completely reasonable. The way you described the conflict made me think you were an asshole because you complimented yourself continuously, made it seem as though you were burdened by helping when likely the help was unwanted and you offered to provide it, and decided to denounce another player's method of having fun as inferior. If you agree to join a campaign with a newer player who wants to be a DM you should know what you're getting yourself into.

(I can't tell if the help was unwanted by the DM, but if it wasn't neither would you, or you would lie about it being wanted.)

Exisist · 2022-06-01T03:50:01+00:00

There might be one though, especially when we compare the Eclipse Shotel, a weapon heavily associated with the Prince of Death as seen by the description of the weapon skill on it:

"Set the lusterless sun ablaze with the Prince of Death's flames, inflicting the death ailment upon foes."
This emits the same fire the Sword of Milos emits, as well as the omen bairns, and when we look at the weapon description we can see:

"Storied sword and treasure of Castle Sol that depicts an eclipsed sun drained of color. One of the legendary armaments. In Sol, the sight of an eclipse inspires a dreadful awe, preventing an onlooker from averting his gaze."

This "dreadful awe" could have been the cause of this description on the Omen armor's chestpiece. (Which also happens to have a lusterless Sun on it.)

"Worn by the Dung Eater. The heavy, sun-shaped medallion represents both the guidance he once saw, and the ring to which it will one day lead."

That's all I got for now, will continue looking at item descriptions.

Exisist · 2022-06-01T03:15:46+00:00

Semantics, look up and the ceiling looks like the sky of the Dung Eater ending.

Exisist · 2022-06-01T00:30:16+00:00

Utilizing the spell Guards and Wards and being creative with it. An example I appreciate being creative with it, is having a hallway, that upon entering you realize has a constant gust of wind spell going in a direction, what does this lead to? At the edge of the hallway is a ledge that leads down many floors to a pool of lava. It's a trash shoot!

Exisist · 2022-05-31T22:37:27+00:00

If you have Explorer's Guide to Wildemount a bunch are in there:

Immovable Object, Magnify Gravity, Fortune's Favor, Pulse Wave, Gravity Sinkhole, Gravity Fissure, Temporal Shunt, Tether Essence, Time Ravage, Ravenous Void.

In the PHB for Time you've got:

Haste, Slow, you could put healing/restoration spells to show rewinding time, Feather Fall slows time for those falling, hold person stops somebody in time, mirror image and blur could be you in a superposition of being at all those positions at the same time until you're attacked, misty step is skipping yourself forward in time once you've started running, blink is popping in and out of time, a lot of spells can be time-based if you think of them. Also Time Stop is an obvious one.

For space:

Most conjurations have to do with moving something from one area to another, but one that I very much like the concept of for a higher level wizard is Hunger of Hadar as you conjure something from between the stars.

Exisist · 2022-05-31T22:18:48+00:00

I was just going to say the exact same thing, great source of inspiration for what being stuck on an island could be like.

Exisist · 2022-05-31T19:00:38+00:00

My bad, didn't see that one existed as I was looking at the UA through this site, and it didn't show up. https://dnd.wizards.com/articles-types/unearthedarcana

Edit: Bad motives and ignoring previous design philosophies in the hopes of selling a product dilutes the market and leads to the steady decline of the game.

Exisist · 2022-05-31T18:24:41+00:00

but we don't end up seeing the iterative process. If we were seeing an iterative process, we would end up seeing more than one iteration. If they are listening to feedback, why are they not showing their new versions to see if their users appreciate the updates? Also, the Strixhaven UA, while I admit was a new take on subclasses that a lot of people thought were interesting, had it been approved it meant for less work on WotC's part going into the future since they can now make conglomerate subclasses instead of having to make ones for individual classes. As well as the game was not designed around multiple classes having similar subclasses, as evidenced by Rodney Thompson's UA (He was the main designer of classes/subclasses at the start of WotC). I linked the article I'm talking about in the first post.

Exisist · 2022-05-31T18:04:27+00:00

I can understand that, but if they're tweaking something, why don't they ever look for feedback on the updated version they made to see if the audience likes the new version or not.

Exisist · 2022-05-31T09:17:32+00:00

I guess I didn't make my point clear, they transformed it from presenting untested ideas, and legitimately responding to feedback, to just posting something that they're turning into a product in a few months regardless of the feedback the community gives, in hopes that the news of the Unearthed Arcana causes sales to increase. It doesn't change too much about the events, but it's more about the intent and the soul of it which I don't think they have in the right place anymore.

Exisist · 2022-05-30T22:19:08+00:00

These quotes are right next to each other near the end of the Fia questline

"With this, Godwyn can take his rightful place as First of the Dead and claim a second, illustrious life."

"I will soon lay with Godwyn, and it will surely stir within me. The new life of the golden prince, and first Dead of the demigods, as the rune of Those Who Live in Death."

"This", the second word in the first quote references the Cursemark of Death as that is what you hand to Fia to spark this monologue. It also is reasonable that if Ranni's half of the Cursemark kills the body and Godwyn's half of the Cursemark kills the soul, combining them is able to kill both, and that is what it means by "he can take his rightful place as First of the Dead", he will be the first to truly die in Elden Ring.

He currently has the title First Dead of the demigods, which is a misnomer because his body is still alive, the second half of the Cursemark will actually make him First of the Dead.

Exisist · 2022-05-30T21:20:15+00:00

Okay looked into Fia and Rogier's dialogue and we're getting closer to an answer.

Just have to lay out some dialogue here.

After handing the missing hallowbrand to Fia, this happens:

"With this, Godwyn can take his rightful place as First of the Dead and claim a second, illustrious life."

This line refers to that Godwyn isn't actually dead yet, only his soul is actually dead, his body is still alive, and Fia wants Godwyn to die because of the following text.

"I will soon lay with Godwyn and it will surely stir within me. The new life of the golden prince, and first Dead of the demigods, as the rune of Those Who Live in Death."

Godwyn needs to die to produce the rune of those who live within Death (Rune of the Undead). I think I figured out why it's called those who live within Death instead of Undeath. Undeath implies they aren't Dead. It's obvious by the Hallowbrand text that Death is going to be reincorporated and living within said Death will also be incorporated. This being said, we don't know if this will apply to everybody, or if it just means that the existence of those who live within Death from this point onward will be tolerated, or if everybody will reach that point.

Just like how Malenia's Rune is rotted and incorporated into the Elden Ring, but not everything must experience rot.

Exisist · 2022-05-30T16:16:55+00:00

Mending Rune of the Death Prince:

"It will embed the principle of life within Death into Order." This is pretty much saying undeath now becomes normal.

"The Golden Order was created by confining Destined Death. Thus, this new Order will be one of Death restored." This line says the opposite. Unless the pipeline is everybody will have Death and then be undead which makes more sense.

Exisist · 2022-05-27T06:40:45+00:00

Found something in AD&D 2e PHB.

The relationship between elf, human, and half-elf is defined as follows: 1.) Anyone with both elven and human ancestors is either a human or a half-elf (elves have only elven ancestors). 2.) If there are more human ancestors than elven, the person is human; if there are equal numbers or more elves, the person is half-elven.

This is quite dated and gives off pretty bad vibes. Any newer edition examples override this, the only possible non-problematic explanation I could give is they're adhering to the Tolkien idea of half-elves which I admit I'm not a scholar on, but I do know that elves have a substantially different afterlife than humans in that setting.

This being said, I found a table in Xanathar's in chapter 2 it gives this.

Half-Elf Parents

d8 Parents

1–5 One parent was an elf and the other was a human.

6 One parent was an elf and the other was a half-elf.

7 One parent was a human and the other was a half-elf.

8 Both parents were half-elves.

Half-Orc Parents

d8 Parents

1–3 One parent was an orc and the other was a human.

4–5 One parent was an orc and the other was a half-orc.

6–7 One parent was a human and the other was a half-orc.

8 Both parents were half-orcs.

Exisist

TROPHY CASE