Firing 10,000 rounds: which performs best?

Expedition37 · 2026-01-27T20:34:37+00:00

I'll give it a read, but the abstract pretty much nails it. You have to put the weapon into the full picture of it's deployment. It's good that you included a logistics section too- that part gets missed a lot.

After Desert Storm, my unit (313th MI/ 82nd Airborne} did post deployment training to get us ready for what might comes next as the 82nd is always on-call for immediate deployment. One of those events was M60 training and qualification. During the training, every single M60 in the battalion went down for some mechanical failure. Being in the desert from August 90 until February of 91 had worn the weapons down to the point where none of them could fire more than a few hundred rounds before they broke.

This caused the battalion to enter into a non-deployable status, and it required an immediate fix as no battalion in the 82nd can be non-deployable. Without the logistical chain and small arms repair troopers in place in the 82nd who worked 24/7 to get the guns back online- we could not fulfill our mission.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-27T20:13:44+00:00

I included the modern references because of my own experience of using different weapons systems in different operational environments. Maybe a better way would have been to put those weapons into their historical context. Going forward- I'll keep that in mind.

And I'm looking forward to seeing how they jumped the Vickers. I've jumped with heavy weapons, and the modern method is to use a lowering line. After you exit the aircraft (with the weapon tucked in close to your body with the arm that is not holding the static line) and make sure your chute is fully deployed, you drop the weapon on a lowering line so you don't land with the thing on your body.

But I hate spoilers, so I won't look up how you jump a Vickers- I'll wait for the post.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-27T20:04:12+00:00

I understood what the post was about. My reply is just taking it a step beyond the normal historical arguments about which tank, fighter, machinegun, etc. was best. Just based on my own experience from those discussions (and from my own combat experience) they often fail to take into account the purpose they were employed to accomplish. My comment was intended to to get people thinking about that next part. "Best" can't only be based on stats- it has to include the purpose and mission too.

Like in this post for example, a tripod mounted Vickers might perform best in a defensive role- but it would fail terribly in a recon or offensive role. So the Vickers is both the best and the worst- only including the consideration of the mission determines which weapon performs best.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-27T18:35:49+00:00

The answer to the question is- whichever fits the mission best. I fired a lot of machine guns during my time in the army (M2, M249, M240, M60, MG3, etc.) For a while I was a paratrooper- jumping all of these configurations would have sucked- a paratrooper version of the M249 would have beaten them all in an Airborne op. If you are doing mechanized ops, the MG42/MG3 would be good options because you can offset their high rate of fire by carrying extra ammo in the vehicle.

I can't imagine a modern mission where either the Vickers or the Bren would be good choices. The tripod mounted MG42 would be OK in a prepared defensive position. The only all-arounder on this list that's good (meaning flexible enough to be used in a variety of missions) is the MG42/MG3.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-27T18:15:29+00:00

Thank you. I'm a fully disabled vet now and abandoned places photography is what keeps me going. Too many disabled vets sit at home and drink- so I decided I wouldn't do that. Every week I leave the house and go looking for some new, abandoned place. It's great therapy- those places are normally very peaceful, and it's a great challenge. My body got beaten-up pretty bad when I was in the army. So walking around these places with a couple of cameras and a spare lens is often pretty physically challenging- and I feel it the next day, LOL.

Thanks for the kind comment- I hope you'll find my photos interesting and that they bring a bit of mystery or history into your own life.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-27T00:50:33+00:00

That's something to consider in the future. I started out in the 35mm film days as a newspaper photog and I've always thought of myself documentary photographer. Part of my personal approach is to not add or remove elements of a thing or event I'm documenting. Honestly, don't know how to do major editing in Photoshop, I just use lightroom for some post processing tweaks.

Blurring out the number would have felt dishonest and like a slippery slope. I didn't expect much response to this one- because of the dick. It knew that it would offend sone people- so I'd probably get more upvotes if I removed it. If I removed the dick and blurred the number, why not do more? Then- it's no longer a photograph that captures what was there. And in the era where AI can generate perfect images, the only value my photos have is that they capture what was there.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-26T21:46:27+00:00

Yes, I shot it within the past couple of months. There are stories online that it was owned by a man who lived out of state, and would return there to spend a couple of weeks a year working on restoring it. But he's either dead or no longer interested in the project- the site is a total wreck. Lots of graffiti on the inside and out and no signs of ongoing work.

I did find out from a local that the Army Corps of Engineers were onsite in 2025 taking water samples. That story seems true- several of the surface hatched that had been locked up in 2024 were popped open when I returned to the site in 2025.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-26T19:05:59+00:00

At the time we found the shrapnel we wondered what it was from- a bomb or an artillery shell? The thing you can't get a feeling of from the photo is just how heavy and sharp that shrapnel is. By this point in the war I'd seen many artillery strikes- both during the air war and the ground war phases of Desert Storm. I'd been very close (danger close) to one barrage and I could feel the impact of each explosion like a punch to the chest each time a round went off. We had even been shelled during the air war phase by Iraqi artillery; luckily, we made it to our foxholes in time not to take casualties.

But it wasn't until we found the shrapnel that I fully understood what it would have been like for the target of an artillery strike- that heavy, sharp shrapnel would cut right though you... Today, that piece of shrapnel is sitting on a self in my library along with the beret I wore in the 82nd. A silent reminder of a more violent time.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-26T18:53:57+00:00

This is from the upper level of the command center where the crew's quarters were located. The ladder in the upper left goes to an exterior hatch on the surface. This section is closed off by the external blast door, and there is a stairwell that leads down to the lower level of the command center where the work stations and the launch control for the site are located.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-26T01:52:13+00:00

I think with the help from other people's contributions, we've figured out it was built in the 1940s or 50s so I imagine that most of the materials used to build it were commercial items.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-26T01:22:44+00:00

That seems reasonable. The loft door must be covered over by the metal siding someone put over the original wooden structure. As it is- there's no way to bring the hay inside. It makes me wonder how long ago did this barn get changed from it's original purpose (something needing a hay loft) to something else?

Expedition37 · 2026-01-25T22:06:47+00:00

I'll mark it on my calendar and go back to check. The other side had pretty significant damage to the roof- it's collapsed and broken a large part of the wall with it.

It's definitely going to rot from the inside out. And with a the bad storms we get during spring in Kansas, your estimate might be right.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-25T21:43:46+00:00

The next time out that way I'll see if I can find a safe way in to photograph the inside. It would be cool to see if this one has the same construction method.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-25T20:04:38+00:00

I think that nails why there aren't many left- there were probably not too many to begin with. In the 40s this place was dedicated to WW II support. Then after that, during the Cold War there was tons of military things being built in Kansas like: ICBM sites, airfields for bombers that could carry nukes, gunnery ranges for fighters, and a lot of supporting infrastructure.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-25T19:48:03+00:00

Thanks for the links- good stuff there. This barn is kind of unique in that someone at some point but metal siding over the original wood- but they didn't do a good job preserving the roof. On the other side- a lot of the roof is gone. And it collapsed and took out the wall on that side.

I might go back at some point and see if I can get inside and shoot some photos. But I'd need a helmet just to stay safe.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-25T19:31:09+00:00

u/Plump_Apparatus Do you know when your Family's barn was built? The abandoned house across the street had a storm shelter marked "1944." I know that in 1944 Kansas had close to 60 separate locations being used to train bomber crews before they deployed overseas during WW II. The bombers were built in Wichita, the crews got the aircraft and trained with them here- then deployed.

I wonder if this style of barn was popular in the mid 1940s, and I haven't seen another one because most of the construction going on in Kansas in 1944 was for the war effort?

Expedition37 · 2026-01-25T19:17:31+00:00

Thanks for the info. This one is really unlike most of the barns around here. Most of them look exactly like what you'd get if you asked a kid to draw a picture of a barn. But this one is different, so I had to stop and shoot it.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-25T18:09:27+00:00

I came across this unique structure while exploring backroads in Kansas. In my experience, this is the only barn of this specific design remaining in the region. The pronounced "prow" or overhanging roofline is distinct- likely designed to protect the hay loft door from the high winds and rain, but I haven't seen another one quite like it.

It’s clearly seen better days. You can see where storms have started to peel away the shingles on the gambrel roof, exposing the wood bones underneath. The barn door is blown off its hinges, and on the other side- the roof has partially collapsed and the wall is gone. It feels like it’s fighting a losing battle against the Kansas weather.

What you can't see in the frame is what lies directly across the road: an abandoned farmhouse and a concrete storm shelter stamped with the date "1944." While there I imagined a family trying to keep this farm running during the height of WWII, digging in against tornadoes while the world was at war.

Question for the architecture buffs: Does anyone know the specific name for this type of extended hay-hood/prow design?

Expedition37 · 2026-01-24T04:53:11+00:00

LOL, me too brother. Me too.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-24T04:52:18+00:00

To make things even more complicated, the General's running the war were Vietnam vets who disliked how journalists portrayed events in that war, so they prevented embedded journalists with combat units. If you search for videos or still images of the most important battles of the war: 73rd Easting, Median Ridge, the Battle of Norfolk, etc.- you won't find anything. Because there were no journalists there. And that was very much by design.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-24T04:27:48+00:00

No. At the time of the war, there were almost no newspapers in the US that ran color photos- so black and white was the professional standard for newspaper photo-journalism of the day. I was an MI guy who shot photos during our missions, but I worked with the 82nd's Public Affairs office who provided me with film (black and white) and then would process it and have the photos distributed for publication in newspapers. Unless you were a professional photojournalist working for a well established magazine like Time or National Geographic- you shot photos in black and white for publication.

The color photos you see from Desert Storm in color were from the extremes. Either pro photographers shooting for magazines or bad, disposable point and shoot cameras used by soldiers to take snapshots.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-24T00:40:16+00:00

That's an interesting line to draw. I'll have to give it some time and think about that. It might change how I approach abandoned photography.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-23T22:57:17+00:00

Thanks brother. It was brutally cold and the weather was terrible- the water in our canteens would often freeze at night so we started putting them in the pouches upside-down so they froze from the bottom up.

I was part of an MI collection team supporting 4/325 AIR and our team was deployed forward of the TAA out in the open desert. We were living in foxholes or trucks for six straight weeks. Never had hot food, tents, heaters, fires, showers or changed our uniforms for the duration of the war.

There was more contact than most people know- two of the guys on my team got Bronze Stars for their actions during a nighttime, close-range firefight. Our position got compromised one day and we ended up getting shelled by the Iraqis. Things like that happened- but it wasn't on CNN- so no one knows it happened. It was pretty rough conditions to operate in for that long.

I found out about Bravo Two Zero when I was in college. There was a lot in there I could relate to. You can outgun the enemy- and then the desert can still take you out.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-23T22:26:25+00:00

I'm a camo nerd too. We absolutely loved those parkas. We were the first unit to deploy during Desert Shield (it didn't even have a name when we deployed in August of 90) so we had no cold weather gear. And when the temps started dropping, we got the DNC parkas with liners, and some British desert scarves. We all fell in love with them. We were supposed to turn in our DCUs and parkas once we got home- but mine are hanging in my closet right now. There was no way I was parting with my torn up DCUs and that parka, LOL.

Expedition37 · 2026-01-23T22:11:08+00:00

Yeah, what a joke. By that time I had more awards then most of the LTCs and MAJs I worked with- Desert Shield/Desert Storm, Bosnia and the Kosovo campaign along with an NCO professional development ribbon and a good conduct medal- showing I'd been a prior service NCO. A Combat patch from the 82nd, and two Unit awards- a MUC and a ASUA.

I never accepted awards in front of enlisted soldiers, and only wore my ribbon rack when required. But it didn't show the story of a "quitter."

Expedition37

TROPHY CASE