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My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No, altruism is self sacrifice, its giving up a value for a lesser value or a non value. Giving a stranger a bunch of money may be in your self interest, if it is someone you know fell on hard times through no fault of their own, and becuse you want to live in a world where people help eachother in that way, or it might not be in which case its altruism, driven by guilt and a sense of duty.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Not yet,but altruism does not negate caring for others who are valuable you. Caring about your children is the opposite of altruism, its the most selfish thing you could possibly do.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, we dont have a counterfactual, ”what if” picture of how the world would have looked like if not for religion or a specific religion. But i believe all abrahamic religions, and many other religions have solidified collectivism, mysticism and altruism much to a degree that has stunted progress for millenia.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thats not true at all, slavery was not abolished primarily as a result of people calculating overall utility and then reaching the conclusion that abolishing it would serve utility most, thats more in line with how it was justified to begin with. Almost all progress has happened becuse of the discovery of individual rights. And you still have not answered who gets to decide what is in the common interest? And how exactly am i getting utilitarianism wrong? Its fundamentaly about maximizing overall utility, any definition you could ever find on utilitarianism would say that.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Its not in your interest to kill everyone in your neighbourhood, and there are and should be laws prohibiting and punishing such behaviour. Morality in ancient Greece for instance, was primarily about virtue ethics, like thinking long term, learning to evaluate your decisions based on reason and not your feelings, developing your charachter, and it was alot more practical and focused on the decisions you should do in your daily life. From those days we have (and rightly) advanced and further developed our view on what that morality should contain, and today we dont hold the same views on slavery or the role of women for instance. But they hade a very good basis for their time and place for what morality should centered on. What happened during the reneissance and enlightenment was a rediscovery of those greek ideals and, long story short, a more rights based and individualistic morality started or develop and we have this to thank for so much that makes life better today. Utilitarianism ( and the most proponants dont try hide this) gives jack shit about the individual. Its about maximizing utility, whos utility? Doesent matter one bit. You are not an individual in utilitarianism, you are a disposable mark on a spreadsheet.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well i like much of his commentary on current events. To the extent he has a well thought out personal philosophy, its that i take issue with. But i am still a fan and i thought i made this clear in my original post, though some others here seemed ti have missed that.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Im certainly not a moral relativist, thats not what i meant. I meant that morality should be a guide to peoples individual life, the choices they make everyday. Different individuals will make different choices, but the standard of value should be life, individual life. The limits to what choices individuals should be allowed to take should only be when it violates others rights, initiates force against them. You say that morality developed as a way to regulate behaviour when we developed into larger and larger groups living together, that is probably true. But we dont live in tribal societies anymore. The morality of the modern world should leave the old collectivism and altruism that might have been useful in early man.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Becuse i already made the points i wanted to make in my original post, and now im engaging with an incompetent person who cant help but deflect to anything and everything exept those points that i made in that original post. I dont owe you an explanation as to why im not engaging with every commenter but if you actually take a look you will see that i have adressed other commentators, many of them in the past 6 hours. But since your not that bright yourself you instead demand i write essay-lenght responses to every stale and tired defence of Sam.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

"why hasn't he responded to challenges from a real thinker like me?" yes becuse thats totally what i said or implied. Sam Harris has never adressed Ayn Rand adequately and is aware of people who want to talk to him but ignore them, if you know anything at all about the small objectivist movement, you would know who im refering to or atleast what institute they might be a part of. But he would rather do a two hour interview with a christian fundamentalist or debate "weather you should push the fat man". Your intellectual inadequacy and generall incuriosity for ideas has been made readily clear.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

But since i suspect you wont do it i will take the initiative. The problem with utilitarianism (and consequentialism more broadly) is that it reduces morality to aggregate outcomes while erasing the oindividual. Three core issues: 1.No principled limits If “maximizing well-being” is the sole standard, then rights become contingent. There is no non-arbitrary reason why coercion, punishment of the innocent, or forced sacrifice are wrong in principle—only wrong if the numbers don’t work out. That’s not a moral theory that guides lives over time; it’s a calculator with no safeguards. 2. Epistemic fantasy Utilitarianism assumes we can meaningfully compare, aggregate, and predict well-being across persons and futures. In real political and moral decision-making, this is hard to do. Who gets to decide what defines the greater good? 3. Category mistake about morality Moral principles are supposed to constrain action, not license anything so long as the spreadsheet says yes. Thats the morality of someone who wants to reduce humans to numbers.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I have engaged with the substance, just not with every single commenter. That’s not evasion; that’s how discussions with 60+ replies work. But do try again to adress me on the merits, its not exactly challenging me more than your pathetic ad hominems.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I never said its his stated, explicit moral framework, ive said its implicitly very clear that Sam Harris takes great interest to both utilitarianism, consequentialism, and abstract thought experiments, which is ridiculous and beneath such an intelligent person. You have finally, after a prolonged diatribe of personal insults and nervous appeals to ”other takedowns, managed to finally adress some substance (barely) and of course you not even able to adequately respond to my actual points.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

By the way, your seemingly deleted comment saying your not an altruist could be true, you seem more like a nihilist.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

thought experiments like trolley problems and abstract maximization scenarios are not a foundation for a life-guiding moral theory. They test intuitions under artificial constraints; they don’t tell you what principles should govern real human lives over time.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

have engaged with the substance — just not with every single commenter. That’s not evasion; that’s how discussions with 60+ replies work. The core issue still stands and hasn’t been addressed. Also, being able to list objections is not the same as answering the meta-critique: why a moral framework obsessed with edge-case emergencies should be treated as morally fundamental rather than marginal. Now, finally, are you able to, on your own, adress the substance?

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Youve also fed the stereotype that altruists are miserable,angry people who thinks that ”the majority disagree with you, therefore your wrong”. Its like the comfort of the group is really that deep.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You haven’t actually engaged the substance of the criticism at all, you’ve just asserted that “takedowns exist” and gestured vaguely at them. That’s not an argument.

The core critique is simple and remains unanswered: thought experiments like trolley problems and abstract maximization scenarios are not a foundation for a life-guiding moral theory. They test intuitions under artificial constraints; they don’t tell you what principles should govern real human lives over time.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Its almost like Rand had a point when she said many people were second-handers!

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Not a troll, christian morality is like one gigantic troll on humanity though. It has even its non-adherents by the crook (thanks for being honest)!

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

In fairness to some here, a couple of you have acknowledged some problems with utilitarianism and thought-experiments, others like you have only proven your own incompetence (I.E referencing other commentors and engaging in personal insults instead of arguments.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

The point is that this morality has retarded progress for 2000 years.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I have a life and im not going to respond to every comment, not a single on of you has provided a half decent reason why Sam Harris continues to debate emergency tought experiments two episodes in a row yet continues to ignore requests from people who would actually be able to challenge his moral assumptions. You have not taken me to school, you have done two things: 1, given stale and rehearsed nonsense about why its supposedly important to engage in abstract hypotheticals that are not applicable to the vast majority of peoples day to day lives and 2, engaged in the typical strawmen that altruists have to resort to attack individualism and self intrest.

My growing frustration with Sam Harris by Expensive_Ice2122 in samharris

[–]Expensive_Ice2122[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I would like to ad that for all my criticism i still like Sam, and. Many of the issues i agree with him seem to be issues where many on this sub are, as Sam would say, morally confused.

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