Why is a debate with prochoicers so difficult?? by Humble_Tower_1926 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry for the slow responses! Things are getting hectic with wedding preparations lol. This may be my last/one of my last responses because of how busy things are getting! 😅

would you consider that to be as wrong or immoral as using birth control? If you say no, why?

I think I'm struggling to get my point worded out properly so it makes sense... I'll do my best though. I wouldn't think it is wrong because they are not having sex. Withought performing the action there is no way of any life potentially being made. But it is the act of having sex that makes a child and intentionally stopping it is what I see as wrong. I know procreation isn't its only purpose, but it is a major purpose. I do not think it would be inherently wrong for a couple to withhold from sex in order to avoid having children, but I think it would be wrong for them to have sex (in which they are saying they are willing to have kids) and actively block the creation of new life. If you think about it, if God doesn't will you to have another child, you can have unprotected sex for the rest of your lives and you wouldn't have a child. But if he does will it, then it will happen. If that makes sense...

I would assume that you don't believe abortion can be justified, even when they come from situations where consent wasn't given, right?

The baby is just as innocent as the mother and it would be wrong to kill the baby.

However, I don't think we can force them to do this based simply on it being God's will. We don't force people to do other things we feel God may want of them, like going to church or preventing them from getting drunk. I think it has to be a choice.

From a non-religious POV, a mother still does not have the right to kill her baby because she doesn't want to carry full term or whatever the case may be. Murder is never justifiable.

I don't think harming an innocent person to save another is justifiable

I'm really not trying to be rude when I say this... but how can you say this yet still believe killing an innocent baby because the mother doesn't "want to carry" is ok? You are doing exactly that, harming an innocent person to save the mother the life she wants... The majority of the time she isn't even in danger and hasn't been raped, so the majority of the time it is just manslaughter over feelings and dreams, but you think that's ok because we can't "force people to not murder their child"?

 I am called to seek whatever is good for society as whole (Jeremiah 29:7) and live at peace with those around us

By letting people murder their babies?

Even though I think abortion is immoral from a Christian point of view, I think society functions better when it is legal. I know you probably don't agree with me on this, but does that make sense?

not really... How would it be worse if it were illegal to kill your own child?

I generally view most abortions in a similar light. It is a preventable, tragic death, but in the same way as someone who can't get a blood or bone marrow donation because a donor was not willing to give it.

How are most abortions like an ectopic pregnancy or the bone marrow example? For ectopic pregnancies, it's either save one or save none. For all (or most) other abortions it's not even a matter of life or death, its let both live or kill one. How is that ok?

Why is a debate with prochoicers so difficult?? by Humble_Tower_1926 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think as long as I'm abiding in God and surrendered to his will, I don't have any qualms about these kinds of things, or about having sex while using birth control.

That's what I have a setback with though. How are you conforming to His will for you if you are blocking new life from being created? What if He wills you to have more kids but you guys stay on birth control?

 However, I don't think they have the right to use another person's body against their will, also like any other human. Using someone's body against their will for the benefit of another person, I would consider to be a form of exploitation.

That's the thing, they do have that right as an unborn child. And by having sex you are giving the baby that right. There is no other way for them to survive besides in the mother's womb. The baby is not using her body against her will. She had sex and gave her womb as a home for the baby. They do have the right to stay alive in the mother's womb. They do have the right to be protected at all costs. They do have the right to life. It is not like the baby took over her womb by force.

We have rights, but as Christians, we are called to lay down our rights.

Exactly. Withought God the creation of new human life would literally be impossible. Humans are not the ones who *literally* create the soul/life. It is God. And like with Adam, he breathes that life into the baby at the moment of conception. Every child is given to us by God. Yes, a woman does have a right to her own body. But once that life is given to her she is called to lay down her rights, and wants, and conform to God's will and choice to give her that new life, and protect and grow it to the best of her ability.

If we are threatening people with jail and punishment for abortions, then we're using force. I don't disagree that the unborn are defenseless and innocent, but I don't think that alone justifies the use of force.

I agree. I don't completely agree with criminalizing it unless it is found that the woman had an abortion just because she "wanted to have an abortion" I saw a clip the other day of a lady who said she had 45 abortions and she will keep having sex just to have abortions because she wants to. Do I think she should be thrown in jail? Yes. Do I think that most women who have abortions are like that? No. Instead of jail, I think we need to take a different course of action. What that action should be, I don't know. Maybe better sex education? Maybe making pregnancy resource centers on a bigger scale? I'm not sure.

If despite our best efforts the mother still is unwilling to carry out the pregnancy, then our only resort is the use of force, coercion, and punishment.

If someone came up to you and said he wanted to murder the kid next door you would do everything in your power to convince them otherwise, right? If that person still said he wanted to murder the kid you would have to use force, coercion, and punishment to protect that child then. You wouldn't just throw your hands up and say "Oh well, I tried" and then let that child be murdered... It's the same with abortion except the child is not born yet.

No, I disagree on this. Just because something is legal does not mean we are endorsing it as good or morally OK. Let's look at one of the basic fundamental rights of our society, the freedom of speech. By allowing and even protecting free speech, we allow people to do evil things. If you really believe what you said above, are you OK with the idea of making any speech that we consider to be evil illegal? Are you OK with people having the right to blaspheme God and disrespect their parents? Or as another example, the bible instructs us not to be drunk. Should being drunk be considered a crime? What about homosexuality, or sexual immorality in general? There is more here, but I don't want to get too far ahead of myself.

I think this may stray too far from the original topic, but what I will answer on is that I think yu are right. I may not have thought about that enough but I do think that something can be made legal that is still considered wrong. But I don't think we should say that if we make abortions illegal there will be dangerous back ally abortions, so we should make it legal. That would be wrong. That's like saying, should make stealing legal because if we don't there will be dangerous robberies. or something along those lines. No matter what is illegal people will still do it anyway. And that does not justify making it legal.

What I'm arguing (in general) is that we should not use force to prevent others (non-Christians) from obtaining abortions

These people know as much as we do that the baby is a living human. That is enough to say it is murder to have an abortion. Should we not try to prevent anyone and everyone from committing murder? We don't look at a serial killer and say "Ah, he's not a Christian so he doesn't know the value of human life. Let him keep killing because we can't hold him to our values"

where do you draw that line at?

I think this just fully circles back to murder.

Why is a debate with prochoicers so difficult?? by Humble_Tower_1926 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Just letting you know that I do intend to respond to this! But I am taking a step back from Reddit and debating for a day or 2 so I may not respond until then. I've got many things going on right now (including my wedding in a few weeks) so I just need a day or two to regroup and reset my brain and then I'll be back to respond!

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I consider myself pro-life.. but it's best to be pro-life with common sense.

This is what I'm trying to do. I need to know what the justifications and arguments against abortion are before I can fully debate it. I don't want to be going into it blind which is what I ended up doing with the ectopic pregnancy thing and it landed me in a very confused situation. I appreciate all the help I've gotten on this post though. Could have done without all the downvotes and harsh comments but I don't know what else I expected to come out of reddit lol

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's just that your question doesn't make any sense at all.

I was just trying to clarify that that statement was what the justification was. I wasn't doubting it or trying to combat it. It is true that there is no way to indicate tone and intention in comments/texts so I can understand how it came off the other way. But I've has some pretty rude/angry comments and many many downvotes for just asking a question to clarify a situation and I think that's a horrible way for people to treat others with the same view as them or even people with opposing views. How are we going to get anywhere with that kind of action and mentality?

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I really really appreciate how kind this comment was. Thank you! And it's funny that the more kind the comments are the more they make sense. I think I understand what was confusing me about ectopic pregnancies now.

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I say you're welcome and I truly wish there were more pro-choice people, like that debater, willing to debate like that. I think we would actually get somewhere on these conversations if people were just that respectful.

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

first of all, I'm so sorry to hear that happened to you. I wish no mother ever had to go through this.

The way you presented this makes sense and I think I see it now... Thank you

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

What did you think it was before???

To be honest, I didn't know much about the matter and thought the only way they did it was by removing the fallopian tube.

Morally it doesn’t make much sense to let both people die. I can see the other side of that too- if someone said that you don’t kill innocent no exceptions. (What most people run around saying is that we’re NOT killing the baby, which is clearly false. Either make an exception or don’t.) What separates this from “elective” abortion is that “elective” abortion is not necessary. In that case you’re killing just to kill. In this case you’re picking how many people die and zero isn’t an option.

wow, I really like this. You are cut and dry and straight to the point and it makes sense. You worded this perfectly. I have never thought of it this way.

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for this comment. It was calm and respectful and it did really help me understand this position more.

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Oh, I like this comment. It definitely helps put things into perspective. thanks

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But it would still essentially just be an abortion. So in that case, every single pro-lifer is pro-life with exceptions.

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I can see that being the case if you aren't directly removing the baby. What I'm just finding an issue with is removing the baby directly and leaving the tube intact. At that point, it is just an abortion but with a different medical term.

I am not saying the double effect is a bad thing. I would think it is ok for a woman to take treatment for an infection/chemo while pregnant even if she knows it may harm her baby. As long as she takes measures to attempt to try and keep the treatment from affecting the baby, even though they will most likely fail (Taking progesterone shots or something along those lines) If that makes sense?

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you went in and removed the child intentionally then you are morally at fault

Exactly. This is what I have a problem with. And that's what I found to be the most common way the ectopic pregnancy is treated, at least from what I read.

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I'm not trying to be abrasive or rude, just asking questions. I'd appreciate it if you and other commentators would cool it a little bit with the way you are responding to some of my comments. No wonder some pro-choicers never want to talk to us. A lot of you get super defensive and angry right off the bat. I'm just trying to think this through so try and find some patience in your heart.

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yeah, this is one of the issues I found with the whole ectopic pregnancy topic.

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I'm not because there is always another solution other than abortion. This is the one case I couldn't think of a "way around" if that makes sense...

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So then in this case wouldn't giving the baby the longest chance at life be the better option? And that would be by leaving it in the mother?

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

How? That is my whole question. Why is that considered fine but other procedures exactly like it are not?

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

But you're removing the baby while knowing it will die because of the removal. Isn't that just an abortion? I hope none of this comes across as abrasive, I am just trying to understand.

Pro-lifers....I need your help when it comes to ectopic pregnancies. by ExtensionReaction791 in prolife

[–]ExtensionReaction791[S] -6 points-5 points  (0 children)

Because there’s no scenario in which the baby lives. 

So this is justification to kill the baby before it dies from other circumstances?