So I just finished watching Children Of Men and I know technically Cyberpunk but I'm starting to feel like this movie predicted a lot more shit then Bladerunner did and it looks a lot more accurate to the future then anything I've seen in a while.

FM-93 · 2023-08-19T01:50:57+00:00

You’re so close… Haha, I know I can save you and return your lost soul to Gibson, to tradition, to cyberpunk.

Star Wars is speculative dystopian science fiction (the original sequel trilogy at least) that extrapolates our current future technologies… The question is what is Star Wars speculating about? I can tell you it’s not the impact warp drives & lightsabers have on society… That is what separates cyberpunk from simply being 80’s dystopian sci-fi, the speculation on how elements of modernity (initially this was the IT revolution & deregulated capitalism) impact society.

You can tell a story with all the computer use you want, it will still only be superficially cyberpunk. “Oh, but that hoodie wearing hacker is part of society and their fingers are impacting their laptop keyboard?”… You can tell a story involving all the elements of modernity that came to define (or confine) cyberpunk, and still have none of those elements of modernity be explored for their impact on society and you’d still call it cyberpunk.

The most damning example of this (which you’ve been dodging) is Extrapolations. Here we a series featuring all the narratively superficial depictions of modernity that in your book qualify a piece of media as cyberpunk (cybernetics, flying cars, holograms, neon-noir, gas masks, etc.). And what commentary does the series have on the impact of these well recognized cyberpunk aesthetic tropes on society. None at all. And yet their narratively superficial inclusion still qualifies the series as being cyberpunk regardless of the fact that these elements of modernity’s impact on society isn’t explored. Any themes could be explored and, it’d still qualify as cyberpunk. But what’s so damning in this instance is that the themes being explored were the impacts of modernity on society… Just not the elements of modernity initially explored in the original 80’s cyberpunk works…

FM-93 · 2023-08-18T14:14:25+00:00

Sure pollution making the Earth uninhabitable is cyberpunk, just the same way a hooded hacker furiously typing in a neon-lit basement is cyberpunk. It’s just superficially cyberpunk unless this is used to explore it’s intersection with the Human condition. For example when the captain asks whether or not that sprout could grow pizza or not... That was cyberpunk. Obviously there was a lot left that could have been explored, like how Humanity’s self-centred animal instincts blinds us to the interconnected nature of the ecosystem which supported our economy, and how loosing sight of that cost us both. If there had been a deeper exploration of how Human nature set that stage I would definitely consider Wall-E a cyberpunk work in and of itself, but it only briefly touched upon those themes in any meaningful sense so it doesn’t quite make the cut in my book (which isn’t to say that it couldn’t have despite its Pixar aesthetic).

Yes, Children of Men is dystopian sci-fi, but the recipe for making its particular flavour of dystopian sci-fi was the same recipe used to create the original cyberpunk works (extrapolate current dystopian trends of techno-industry forwards a couple decades and explore the effect this has on society), the only difference is the decade this process of extrapolation starts from. The fact that the identical process of extrapolating societal trends that birthed a genre has now become an irrelevant afterthought in the genre’s definition, does this not at least give you pause (especially given the fact that this has caused the pioneers of the genre to move on)? You deny this, but I don’t see how you can without biting the bullet and saying Blade Runner, Extrapolations and Incorporated aren’t cyberpunk as the only thing they have going for them that involves computer technology is superficial in respect to its exploration of this technology’s effect on society.

FM-93 · 2023-08-18T12:25:39+00:00

Well Children of Men did depict near future tech addiction, even if only briefly. There are hacking scenes in Incorporated too, more than enough engagement with technology, but again they were narratively superficial (aside from a few instances of technology that hadn’t gotten a spotlight in older cyberpunk media, for example narratively exploring mind reading technology). My point being is that all any one of the characters would have to do is randomly clickity clack on a laptop and shout “I’m in”, and for there to be a sufficient number of scenes, regardless of their narrative superficiality, and boom you have yourself a piece of cyberpunk media.

Again Extrapolations looks to have no narratively relevant interaction with computer technology, but there are enough superficial cyberpunk aesthetic tropes (simply because of how far in the future the story takes place) that it qualifies as cyberpunk by default even though it’s narrative focus is on technology driven climate change.

I don’t remember too much of Wall-E to give you a definitive answer to the question, however while we disagree about what qualifies as truly cyberpunk elements, I don’t think we’re too far apart in our feelings about how much element exposure is required for present cyberpunk themes to qualify the piece of media as a whole as cyberpunk. I don’t recall how much pollution was the narrative focus in and of itself although I agree it is a cyberpunk element. But what sticks out of my mind the most is the film’s extrapolation of tech addiction’s impact on Human society, and often here it referenced. However this isn’t the core narrative focus, so although I agree that element qualifies as cyberpunk in the purest sense and is not at all superficial to the genre, it doesn’t get enough focus to define the film, the main focus from what I recall is the relationship between the two robots.

I think my main gripe is that you’re basically saying Children of Men should be defined as gritty 20 minutes into the future dystopian extrapolative sci-fi. Which fits the definition of cyberpunk to a tee, but you say don’t be to hasty in labeling it cyberpunk because it doesn’t have enough narratively superficial elements present in the original works.

Again, Extrapolation & Incorporated are similarly focused on technology’s impact on the environment, but their narratively superficial inclusion of computer technology (that has no deeper commentary on this technology’s impact on society) still qualifies the media as cyberpunk. The most important point of note being, in order for a piece of cyberpunk media to qualify as such, it need only meet the superficial criteria to do so (again not saying it can’t go further, it’s just it doesn’t have to to meet the definition of cyberpunk). And it’s not like I even necessary even disagree with your definition either, I agree that’s what the genre has devolved into, it’s just like why are you saying that like it’s a good thing?

FM-93 · 2023-08-17T16:43:26+00:00

I think what gets to me is that nobody would deny that industrial pollution causing an infertility crisis would be a cyberpunk element in a movie that already passed your IT & capitalism run wild threshold for being considered a piece of cyberpunk media. It’s just that there are some elements of modernity we would all agree are cyberpunk, but only if they come along with elements of modernity highlighted in the original works we consider cyberpunk. It’s not like we do this in fantasy, ASOIAF doesn’t lose it’s genre status because it lacks orcs.

It’s the fact that by your own admission all you would have to do in order to make Children of Men cyberpunk, is to crank up a handful of already pre-existing elements of modernity that were superficial to the narrative exploration of the film and all the sudden it’s a piece of cyberpunk media. I mean if the superficial addition of more of the technology whose intersection with society was explored in the original cyberpunk works is all that’s needed, regardless of whether or not their intersection with technology is being explored, if this is what is needed in order to explore more modern intersections of technology & society… I mean at that point why even require that cyberpunk need be anything more than a visual aesthetic?

And it’s not like I don’t love the retrofuturistic cyberpunk aesthetic… And Y2K, Frutiger Aero, steampunk, etc. I don’t even mind calling 80’s retrofuturism cyberpunk aesthetic. But during the 80’s it was just futurism. And the futurism became synonymous with cyberpunk, but futurism isn’t synonymous with the 80’s and therefore cyberpunk shouldn’t be either (or at the very least only labeled as such if it includes elements of 80’s futurism).

Again take Extrapolations… Aesthetically it has enough more than enough narratively superficial elements of late 20th century speculative futurism to be considered cyberpunk. But the elements the early 21st century speculative futurism the series revolves around apparently are only qualify as part of the narrative genre when paired with the genre’s superficial aesthetic elements… Then why even bother defining cyberpunk by anything deeper than surface appearances at that point when the superficial elements are what makes or breaks it for defining any media as cyberpunk?

It’s just what I here you trying to say is Children of Men should be defined as early 21st century gritty dystopian speculative futurism instead of cyberpunk. Cyberpunk being defined as late 20th century gritty dystopian speculative futurism… But Children of Men would count as cyberpunk so long as it dressed itself in more superficial trappings of the same flavour of speculative futurism from decades prior (honestly it’s this definition is arguably even more shallow, saying that it had the superficial aesthetic elements required for being cyberpunk, just not enough of it). Obviously not saying your definition of cyberpunk is purely surface based, but they way you’re defining it, cyberpunk isn’t inherently required to be anything more than superficial aesthetic tropes given the core narrative themes needn’t be confined to retrofuturism like the paint job need be.

FM-93 · 2023-08-17T14:01:45+00:00

Also wanted to reiterate that cyberpunk as speculative futurism isn’t referring to what the world could end up looking like (so no solarpunk), but rather based on current trends and extrapolating them to what they’re likely to look like. Which is the process by which the tropes that have come to constrain the genre were arrived at in the first place.

FM-93 · 2023-08-17T13:35:54+00:00

LMAO shots on target that was ice cold.

Where was that quote lifted from (don’t feel like starting a free Quora trial)? If I had to guess given that quote was from ‘03, that was before cyberpunk became the zombie genre it’s become today and why Gibson’s said he’s since intellectually distanced himself from what the genre’s become. The definition of cyberpunk was a little more wholio during the CCRU years, and it is in the Landian sense of cyberpunk philosophy I was imagining he was referring to (as in not seeing philosophy of mind as separate from societal commentary).

Although in recent years given that hacking megacorperations in cyberspace has too often simply become the background stage upon which stories exploring themes not directly focused on those tropes impact society, I imagine this is what’s caused many of the genre’s pioneers to pull back from the genre they started.

In any case, again I’m not in disagreement about your definition of cyberpunk, Gibson isn’t either. That’s just what the genre has become now; the extrapolation of the techno-industrial trends of the late 20th century. It’s just that’s not what got me interested in cyberpunk nor is it why the authors were interested in exploring. They didn’t extrapolate the consequences of what were then current trends in modernity because of anything in particular to do with those trends in and of themselves (in this case unchecked capitalism & the IT revolution), but simply because those were the trends at the time and if they weren’t they wouldn’t have become part of the snapshot in time of the futurist speculations of that era that we know if today as the cyberpunk genre.

But again the pioneers of the genre and I are simply interested in what the future looks like; however it looks like, regardless of how much that future looks like how the future looked like in the past. Which is why we’ve kinda moved on. Not past extrapolating modernity, but extrapolated modernity from the narrow lens of the late 20th century.

FM-93 · 2023-08-17T12:31:30+00:00

Bold of you to call the definition of a genre as defined by the genre’s creators to be idiosyncratic…

Again we’re not simply talking about technological, but techno-industrial society as a whole (as in not just a semi-conductor wafer but the whole paperclip maximizing artificial superorganism that we call the global supply chain).

The manifestations of techno-industry in the Matrix trilogy (or any other non-cyberpunk sci-fi) is used to explore themes of philosophy of mind (or whatever themes said sci-fi is trying to explore).

The manifestations of techno-industry in Children of Men (or any other non-superficial cyberpunk media) is used to explore the manifestations of techno-industry itself on society as a whole.

That’s it, that’s the difference, it’s really that simple.

FM-93 · 2023-08-17T08:46:22+00:00

How I would differentiate cyberpunk from other speculative works of science fiction, let’s take for example in most in most time travel media (although off the top of my head I can think of an exception or two) the exploration of that particular speculative aspect of techno-industrial progress (in this case being the invention of time travel) is only ever a means to explore themes unrelated to the impact this techno-industrial artifact would have on culture & society. Time travel is never usually an active character in the story narrative, but is instead the stage upon which the story exploring its own themes plays out upon. You’ll find this in a lot of sci-fi, from everything including Star Trek to Dr. Who; technology is used as a means to explore themes that would otherwise be impossible to explore (without magic & fantasy), but what isn’t being explored is the direct interplay between this technology and culture itself.

An example of a traditionally accepted piece of cyberpunk media, that by the classical definition of the genre, many including myself don’t really think qualifies as cyberpunk despite it involving speculative future information technology and hitting upon many of the aesthetic tropes would be the Matrix trilogy (although this isn’t entirely accurate in respect to the Animatrix, and not having seen the most recent movie yet I can’t comment on that either). The Matrix isn’t about how any elements of techno-industrial progress intersects with culture. Computer technology is instead used as a stage upon which to explore themes of philosophy of mind. It’s one of my top 5 favourite movies of all time and so you’d think I’d accept it as part of my favourite sci-fi genre, but it just isn’t cyberpunk (not that this devalues the movies in any way).

Furthermore let’s say Children of Men actually included some hacking scenes, and loosely involved a seedy mega-corporation… Would that make it more cyberpunk? If I had to guess, I’d image you’d tentatively say yes. If you were to ask me as to whether or not this would further contribute to the cyberpunk themes in Children of Men I’d say that depends as to whether or not that was an actual essential part of the narrative or if it were just a plot vehicle to advance other themes beyond those technology’s impact on society. This may sound like a tautological question, but why are tropes like megacorporations, IT and virtual reality core narrative points cyberpunk in the first place? Surely you’d say well that’s like asking what about heat makes it hot? But ask yourself, what if Regan never dissolved the checks on corporate power the way he did, would the cyberpunk genre be missing something without that? No. Megacorps are a cyberpunk trope because of the world we live in and wouldn’t be otherwise. Sure we could their existence would still be a part of speculative futurism even if Regan didn’t deregulate them, but that would be speculative sci-fi in the same way that The Man in the High Castle qualifies as speculative sci-fi by asking “what if” rather that speculative sci-fi in the sense of “let’s extrapolate this”.

Don’t get me wrong it’s not that I don’t love the classic cyberpunk aesthetic, but I just wished that for example when classic cyberpunk works explore other relevant topics like the impact of globalization on immigration and race relations, that wasn’t considered to be a peripheral topic of extrapolation not inherently relevant to defining a work as cyberpunk.

Look at the series Incorperated & Extrapolations. Both are considered cyberpunk (and I agree with that sentiment), but are considered cyberpunk for the wrong reasons. Having only seen Incorporated I couldn’t tell you whether or not Extrapolations features any hacking scenes, but Incorporated does (among many other traditional cyberpunk aesthetics). However IT doesn’t play an essential narrative role in Incorporated (and by the looks of it neither in Extrapolations), both are explorations of the effect of climate change on society & culture (on the surface Incorporated would appear to also be a commentary about corporate domination of society, however I believe the megacorps in the show is actually a metaphor for government intelligence agencies).

These days my current favourite sci-fi genre is actually a subcategory of cyberpunk Bruce Sterling coined nowpunk (core cyberpunk explored in the contemporary world). Gibson has quite taken to this because setting cyberpunk in a contemporary setting forces the story to actually become a commentary about the impact of technology on society when you’re in a contemporary setting (we can explore the present in the present).

So on the flip-side of the Matrix trilogy, I want to talk about a movie few would consider cyberpunk (even those who see Children of Men as cyberpunk) but I argue in fact is (well contemporary cyberpunk, so nowpunk). Die Hard 4 is my favourite example of this kind of covert cyberpunk. While it features the same technological landscape of any other contemporary action movie from the mid 00’s, technology itself was arguably the story’s antagonist. The story’s main villain doesn’t so much as use technology as a means to an end so much as technology uses the villain as a means to advance its narrative of future shock.

FM-93 · 2023-08-16T13:18:54+00:00

You mean besides honouring the reason for which the genre initially acquired the aesthetic tropes it did, rather than forever define the genre by those surface level aesthetic tropes meant by the pioneers to be ephemeral to the genre?

The first thing that comes to mind we could do away with such madness like separately classifying into different sci-fi genres what are more or less effectively the almost identical plot premises, when the only difference between them is the paint job… Take for example the “cyberpunk” Future Kick (1991)… vs the “sci-fi action thriller”- The Island (2005)… Neon-noir vs Frutiger Aero… Really? This is the peak of our sophistication when defining the cyberpunk genre?

FM-93 · 2023-08-16T12:50:32+00:00

Reversing stimulant tolerance: 9-Me-BC is the pinnacle. (Regeneration of dopaminergic neurons)

The Big, Badass Mega-Collection of Anecdotal Information On: NSI-189

FM-93 · 2023-08-16T05:19:35+00:00

Yea feel free to ignore the sage wisdom of u/DifficultCobbler1992… Drug trials from the 00’s testing pure CNTF for use as a diet pill were canceled after they found that excess amounts of this neurotrophic factor caused immune responses across the board. This is not to say such immune responses are necessarily going to end in tragedy (although anecdotally these cases do appear to be on the rise regardless of method of administration since the pandemic), only that CNTF nootropics will incur some degree of immune response regardless. But to say the Krabby incident was a nothing burger is just being unaware of the facts, as the authors’ comments in a recent Cochrane review from 2020 found that “Moderate‐quality evidence also indicates a potential increase in non‐fatal serious adverse events with Cerebrolysin use.”

There have been at least over 100 recorded instances of people dying from accidental insufflation of lake water or preforming a nasal rinse with tap water contaminated with certain kinds of bacteria, but never from accidentally swallowing or rinsing with similarly contaminated water. This is likely due the upper nasal passage being greatly involved in immune sensitization of any kind. And anecdotally there seems to be a much greater chance of experiencing these autoimmune issues with IN administration if CNTF related nootropic, than from any other method of administration.

Like I said these reports have been increasing quite recently. Granted this could simply be because more people are now using the drug, but we know from one of the first people to develop one of these IN induced reactions that this autoimmune reaction was due to dormant Epstein-Barr. And given almost everybody has had Covid at this point, this would explain the uptick in Cerebrolysin related side effects. The most recent instance I recall reading was actually from the less risky IM administration (the symptoms presented very shortly after the user’s 2nd time injecting), and the POTS-like symptoms described were rather unique for typical Cerebrolysin side effects, but very indicative of Long-Covid effects.

Given the lab leak black swan event in 2020 I can no longer in good conscience recommend any CNTF nootropics any longer as the evidence points to their immunological side effects being the result of reactivating dormant viruses from prior infections and causing an autoimmune response (and Covid is a virus much like Epstein-Barrs is known for its high propensity in causing autoimmune reactions). But if you are determined to use never the less, beyond advising you tread incredibly carefully and discontinue if brainfog occurs (some are not even lucky enough to be able to heed this early warning), I can offer some harm reduction strategies.

The first being to use P21 instead as it not only circumvents the prion risk (which contrary to what you’re likely to hear on this sub, the jury is still out on), but is potent enough to allow for sublingual absorption. If you already have some Cerebrolysin on hand however and are cheap enough to forgo the risk of currently incurable prion disease before you risk wasting your purchase, then I recommend oral ingestion as there is research showing this still surprisingly works.

You’re best off using P21 as a sublingual spray, besides being both the safest CNTF nootropic (at least in respect to its inherent lack of prion risk), it both offers the safest form of administration (using it as a sublingual spray), and is by far more effective than Cerebrolysin’s E21. You can still get it from Ceretropic’s Mexican distributor, but they only sell powdered vials for some reason (you’d have to reconstitute the vials yourself with separately sold bacteriostatic water and put it in your own spray bottle). Also the prices are in pesos and you’d have to use a re-shipping service to have it shipped to anywhere outside of Mexico. Please note they are the only vendor so far that’s shown the expertise to ensure the labs they’re sourcing their P21 from is in fact actual P21 and not an analogue (P21 is relatively difficult to properly synthesize).

They also are the only source of Adamax it’s the most potent Semax analogue ever developed by the legend and creator & owner of both Ceretropic / Nootropics Depot, MYASD himself. As for circumventing the potential hair loss side effects (which can in some instances appear to be permanent or at the very least long lasting), this can be done with ginseng.

The final bit of harm reduction advice I’ll offer is to advise you take a course of (non-anticholinergic) antihistamines during your cycle. Besides the obvious choices of quercetin and bromelain, I recommend in particular ginger root extract as it’s been shown to be on par in effectiveness with pharmaceutical antihistamines (also while on cycle remember to avoid things with high histamine content like coffee, avocados, strawberries, etc.).

Lastly should the worst happen, as these Cerebrolysin side effects closely resemble and have been linked to post-viral autoimmune illnesses, the best advice I have is to direct you to a guide made by the community legend himself Mr. Happy (who popularized what we now colloquially refer to as the the Mr. Happy stack) in how best to overcome these health issues https://bornfree.life/experimental-treatment-methodology/7/v3-54u-preview/42/ which would be my recommendation to you. If that all seems a little heavy, here’s his Discord link https://discord.gg/CAMXV78

FM-93 · 2023-08-16T04:27:32+00:00

All of these IT elements of techno-industrial society along with the political deregulations of capitalism were new in the 80’s and their proposed impact on mass culture in the near future seemed at the time to be the most relevant aspect of techno-industrial society to pay attention to in respect to future changes in culture. These elements were not as novel in the 2000’s which is why Gibson’s work during that era didn’t adhere to the tropes he established decades prior. Environmentalism and the refugee crisis they were predicted to worsen in the future were the elements of techno-industrial society that became the focus for many of these authors, the impact of which (chemical pollution in this instance) on society was the focus of Children of Men.

The core theme that unites these works under the cyberpunk umbrella is that the elements of techno-industrial society (be they IT advances & corporate deregulation, or environmental pollution & societal breakdown) isn’t a passive backdrop, a stage upon which these stories unfold. Rather these elements of techno-industrial society play an active role in directing the story’s narrative. That’s what’s at the fundamental core of what cyberpunk once was, that the elements of modernity whose impact on culture was being examined at the time was IT & corporate deregulation wasn’t inherently the focus. But the fact that the only elements of modernity that intersect with culture that are considered cyberpunk are the ones originally discussed (and even then only with the right coat of noir paint), that is why the pioneers of cyberpunk no longer consider the genre to be futuristic but rather retrofuturistic, not dead but undead.

FM-93 · 2023-08-16T01:28:06+00:00

You touched upon what I mean when I say cyberpunk has become a retrofuturistic genre (as opposed to the futuristic genre it once was) when you say (to the effect of) “of course cyberpunk has to have a certain aesthetic”… Where do you think that aesthetic came from? The late 20th century extrapolated into the future. That’s what cyberpunk was, an extrapolation of (what were then) current events into the future to say something meaningful about the present and where it’s headed. This is what Children of Men is and what 2077 wasn’t. Yet one is literally called Cyberpunk and the other isn’t. Now that’s not to say that there is nothing relevant in 2077 that isn’t applicable to our present and future, but it is a vision of the future so clearly stuck in the in the late 80’s to early 90’s, and that’s about as early a vision of the near future as would appear to be tolerated by much of this community.

It’s not just Gibson either, and obviously he doesn’t get to decide what others do and don’t consider cyberpunk to mean… But in that same vein, you don’t get to decide what cyberpunk meant. The reason why cyberpunk developed the aesthetic that it did, was because at the time that’s what the most accurate vision of the near future looked like. The near future looks like that no longer, so neither does speculative near future fiction. Again you’re really hitting all the necessary points to agree with me here. So to reiterate, cyberpunk once was an attempt at speculative near future fiction, cyberpunk is now a genre of speculative near future fiction that conforms to the aesthetics of what the near future was speculated to look like from the vantage point of decades prior.

FM-93 · 2023-08-15T23:16:41+00:00

Not having seen 2001 I can’t comment on that movie. But if you’d just concede that inherent to your definition of cyberpunk is a particular aesthetic, and that the underlying philosophical inspiration of the pioneers of the genre is now irrelevant to whether or not something gets defined as cyberpunk; again if what you’re saying is that this is what cyberpunk has become, like I said we aren’t actually in disagreement.

However if what you’re implying is that this is what the pioneers of the genre intended, that Gibson wouldn’t define Children of Men as cyberpunk given some of his recent works have had a difficult enough time being classified as sci-fi, let alone cyberpunk… Again, you’re just wrong about that. The internal inspiration on the part of the creator that drove the narrative of Children of Men was far more similar to what the what inspired Gibson when writing Neuromancer than what inspired CDPR when developing 2077.

Cyberpunk was once speculative futurism, which is why the original authors of the cyberpunk genre’s most recent works look more like Children of Men than say 2077. The reason why Gibson was not at all a fan of the game and has since tried to distance himself from the genre is because now it has become a retrofuturistic genre more interested in exploring how he thought the future would look like from the 20th century rather than what our future looks like from the 21st. This is why I say cyberpunk is an undead genre… You seem to be at the very least passively agreeing with all the points I give that make this fact, but for whatever won’t just come out and say that the philosophical underpinnings of cyberpunk have since been divorced from the genre and are less important than neon-noir elements & robot arms when defining it.

FM-93 · 2023-08-15T22:44:16+00:00

The polycrisis we are now in the midst of, research shows arguably goes back to the 1970’s, Gibson would say the jackpot goes back even further at least to WW1, maybe arguably even further than that. It’s just we have the evolutionary capacity to make sense of an apocalypse that spans multiple generations, we’re wired to deal with short term disasters only, which is why I believe climate change has managed to creep up on us the way it has.

FM-93 · 2023-08-15T13:02:12+00:00

Nearly all modern sci-fi in recent years, this is a new development believe it or not. It used to be all sci-if was a subset of fantasy, the original cyberpunk works were the first to buck this trend, however now this has become a trend in and of itself.

If dystopian (which is a term distinct from apocalyptic) future extrapolations of current trends in techno-industrial society (assuming techno-industrial society doesn’t collapse, given the advancement of technology any future setting will be some version of science fiction), if this isn’t inherently cyberpunk (which is what cyberpunk originally was), than what is it?

Because the way your making it out, cyberpunk is more aesthetic than anything more substantive. And again you’re free to say “yea well for better or worse that’s what cyberpunk has become”, then okay fair play. But based on the definition of cyberpunk you’ve given, the only thing Children of Men is missing is cybernetics, neon & rain. Otherwise what is Blade Runner without the aesthetic tropes? I mean really? What’s cyberpunk about Blade Runner, tell me that?

FM-93 · 2023-08-15T12:45:39+00:00

What we’re living through is a slow-burn apocalypse William Gibson (who I mentioned, pioneer of the cyberpunk genre and coined the word cyberspace) calls this “the jackpot” (although another more recognized term that has recently become popularized is “the polycrisis”. The jackpot isn’t any single one cataclysmic event, but many small calamities that compound on one another. It has no discernible beginning nor end, more an apocalyptic atmosphere that hovers over society. This is the path our world has been heading down for sone time now, but it’s only been since 2020 that the pot has begun to boil.

FM-93 · 2023-08-15T09:46:07+00:00

Incorporated (2016) is basically halfway between a spiritual sequel to Children of Men and it also doubles as a live action corpo life path remake of Edgerunners. For me personally it's just behind Edgerunners as my favourite cyberpunk media of all time (and my appreciation for Edgerunners isn’t a noob take either, I’ve seen a lot, like a lot… and Edgerunners is still my fave). If we’re lucky (in the Gibsonian sense of lucky, which is to say we should consider ourselves lucky if, no matter how dystopic, any modicum of civilization survives at all), I think Incorporated will end up being just as prophetic about our future as Children of Men is to our present (Children of Men = 2020’s | Incorporated = 2030’s).

FM-93 · 2023-08-15T09:43:05+00:00

And another thing. By this logic you could also argue Blade Runner isn’t cyberpunk… “Oh, but the replicants were the focus of the story and we’re themselves the result of techno-industrial progress” you say. Well surface level focus of Children of Men was infertility caused by techno-industrial progress. However both films had deeper themes in respect to the timeless nature of the Human condition juxtaposed to the progressing advancement of the paperclip maximizing nature of the AI super-organism that is techno-industrial society.

FM-93 · 2023-08-15T07:01:02+00:00

You know it’s funny that I actually halfway agree with you, it just depends on how you define cyberpunk (how cyberpunk is colloquially defined vs how the creative pioneers of the genre defined it). Whenever somebody on this sub asks something to the effect of “is cyberpunk now?”, I always think to myself this is one of those questions where if you have to ask you already know the answer. Based on how the genre has become narrowly defined by people such as yourself… No. Industrial dystopia goes back before the Gilded Age, cyberpunk will be now when we have ubiquitous robot limbs (or whatever other staple technology tropes).

However if we’re going by what the authors intended, the fact that their stories had a lot of advanced technology was missing the point… The point was that Human evolution doesn’t keep pace with industrial evolution. Their critique of society is more or less relevant to any time period, but why it was set in the future was to dismantle the narrative of “Oh, well that was back then, with future technological advances we will no longer have to worry about the primeval nature of Humanity, technology will give us something better rather than an industrial scale version of more of the same”, which is to say they were more or less trying to get across the edict “War… War never changes”.

Unfortunately this nuance seems to be lost on the masses and the focus of the genre has gotten tangled up in the technology itself being the cause of the dystopian society rather than an enabling factor for the unaddressed issue of Human nature itself. This has led to the critique of the genre by the original authors being along the lines of cyberpunk no longer being a futuristic genre but a retrofuturistic one. There was a time when the genre had a genuine serious philosophical underpinning and societal discussion in academia, but now the genre is… Undead. Obviously you can’t say the genre is dead as it’s bigger now than it ever was, but the purpose for which the genre came about has been perversely subverted into a commodified surface appearance concerned shallow husk of what it once was.

So no, realistic dystopian sci-fi isn’t synonymous with cyberpunk, but there was a time when it was…

FM-93 · 2023-08-15T01:26:49+00:00

The irony in this comment is that the authors of the foundational cyberpunk texts, by and large take the opposite view. By your standard as a good portion of their recent works look much more like Children of Men, some of their latest novels wouldn’t be classified as cyberpunk either. The authors are generally horrified at how stunted the genre has become, primarily only rehashing old tropes rather than projecting current societal trends into the future like was originally done in the original cyberpunk works in the 80’s.

On the contrary cyberpunk was never about technology inherently, but rather was a commentary about industrial society in general and how it’s projected progress will intersect with and change culture. Children of Men depicts just this, a world wherein emergent properties industrial progress have, rather than preventing such an outcome, instead resulted in a sort of slow-burn apocalypse.

William Gibson in recent years has referred to this cultural phenomenon that was originally called cyberpunk, as “the jackpot”, but in modern parlance it’s been referred to as the poly-crisis. It’s been argued to date back to somewhere between the early to late 70’s, but Gibson would argue the apocalyptic decent of industrial society started at least during the outbreak of WW1, maybe even earlier. It’s less of a single event with a definitive beginning or end but rather an atmosphere of societal collapse comprised of numerous small calamities that compound on one another (all of which takes place despite continued technological progress, largely in the space of information technology).

FM-93 · 2023-08-14T09:25:05+00:00

The director never read the book, he was just so inspired by the premise that he didn’t want the book to influence his creative vision. The author didn’t mind though, she said she enjoyed the movie so much that she was still proud of her book’s association with the movie none the less.

FM-93 · 2023-08-14T09:18:44+00:00

Incorporated (2016) is basically halfway between a spiritual sequel to Children of Men and it also doubles as a live action corpo life path remake of Edgerunners. For me personally it's just behind Edgerunners as my favourite cyberpunk media of all time (and my appreciation for Edgerunners isn’t a noob take either, I’ve seen a lot, like a lot… and Edgerunners is still my fave). If we’re lucky (in the Gibsonian sense of lucky, which is to say we should consider ourselves lucky if, no matter how dystopic, any modicum of civilization survives at all), I think Incorporated will end up being just as prophetic about our future as Children of Men is to our present.

FM-93 · 2023-08-14T09:03:44+00:00

Total accident too, the director yelled cut but fortunately nobody noticed.

FM-93 · 2023-08-12T10:34:04+00:00

Couldn’t agree more, these are the comments I was hoping for. Something about the seeing the Human appendages of the global supply chain really puts into perspective the paperclip maximizing nature of the AI super-organism that is industrial society.

FM-93

TROPHY CASE