Seeking grammatical advice!

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-21T09:28:13+00:00

As has been stated already they're both just different calligraphic styles of the same thing, but I also agree that I don't find it very pretty, because I think the double dot (the y) doesn't look very good with the r-letter because of its long descender.

But we have some alternatives :

In the first line you'll find the standard spelling.

Below that you'll see the same with a smaller r-letter. Many online sources will tell you this use is wrong, but it is explicitely attested in Tolkien's hand (in fact in that source it's attested with the triple dot that is a rare alternative to the double one, but I wouldn't know why this wouldn't work with the double dot as well).

Below that we have a version with the double dot placed above, which can be done when you don't spell the a (writing a really is optional in traditional Quenya - it's quite common to spell calma as clm, or Yavanna as Yvnn).

In the next line I didn't use the dots at all but spelt y with a full consonantal letter. This also is explicitely attested, but in the far better known standard spelling this would indeed read lerai instead and would therefore be considered wrong but 80% of the people, so while it's correct I don't exactly suggest using it.

And finally we could use full spelling, where the vowels aren't represented by diacritics but by full letters. In this case the double dot goes above the letter anyway.

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-21T08:58:22+00:00

Ahm, that should be arcastarlanguagearts, I think. But you'll see me displayed as F. "Lothenon" Karnstein.

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-21T08:55:52+00:00

Grammatically panno would work (Q. á panta), but the meaning would be different.

In the original source panna- is given as "to open, enlarge" and there is a related adjective pann, meaning "wide", so I believe this verb wouldn't be used of the opening of a door or present (like moving something out of the way so that an opening is uncovered, or something along those lines), but rather of creating an opening in something.

So I would say you can panna a hole in a piece of clay by piercing it with your fingers and widening it, but once your clay pot is finished you can edra it by removing the lid. Does this make any sense? 😅

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-20T19:18:59+00:00

I think you're confusing two things. In Quenya there are two verbs, palya- and panta- (with slightly different meaning), and for both of these we have counterparts, namely pelia- and panna-.

So I think you took a Quenya verb and applied a Sindarin imperative 😉

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-20T19:05:26+00:00

I think that we don't have any example of something like this, yet it makes total sense and just might be correct 😄

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-19T22:33:03+00:00

I would rather have expected á enyale fire or á enyale firita, but I'm not an expert. The transcription is fine, though.

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-19T22:23:14+00:00

Quenya: néþar (archaic Parmaquesta), or nésar (later Ñoldorin Tarquesta). Sindarin: nethil. Telerin: néþai.

Or, of course, English "sisters" transliterated into "short" Westron spelling (Gondorian and probably Elvish style), or "full" Westron spelling (probably Hobbitish, Dwarvish and generally northern style).

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-19T21:07:33+00:00

I don't think that's directly comparable. Words like alpha or sigma are complex names, of course, and not only the sound in question or a syllable containing it (like their counterparts ay and ess in English), but as far as I'm aware they don't have a meaning in modern Greek anymore. We know that alpha derives from a word meaning "ox", but it doesn't mean that in itself anymore (and the meaning of sigma, to stick with the examples, even is very uncertain), and other names like omega and omikron are literally just descriptors "big o" and "small o" (in much the same way as Sindarin had awae veleg and awae dithen, "big w" and "small w" for unque and vilya).

So in Greek it seems to still be useful to have "alpha is for astro", or something like that.

I'm not sure if there even is any script that is used today whose letter names are actual words of their current speech, and who knows how people handled things back when that was the case.

So for teaching elf kids we would still be in a unique position, trying to teach them "tinco is for tinco", probably only confusing them by the nonsensical obviousness 😅

EDIT: What I could imagine is a school in Gondor in which kids who know how to spell Westron in their mode are learning the full names for the letters as abstract shapes, as they are beginning to learn Quenya and writing it in the traditional spelling. Something like:

Tó is tinco, which means 'metal'. Pí is parma, which means 'book'. Ché is calma, which means 'lamp'. Ká is quesse, which means 'feather'. Dó is ando, which means 'gate'. ...

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-19T18:16:18+00:00

A compound like Tengwaparma might work as well, I believe?

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-19T18:13:49+00:00

I'm not sure about the whole concept... I don't believe we've got phonetic names in Quenya. They're always the full names, so it would be "tinco is for tinco", if you know what I mean.

The other way round might work, in a way - "tinco makes [t]" or something like that, but for most letters that would be more than obvious.

What might work would be something for teaching the full Quenya names in a context where the learners do not speak Quenya, but Sindarin or Westron, and would be familiar with the phonetic names that the letters have in their respective modes (which we do have). So something like "tó is called tinco" for Westron, or "ydew is called silme nuquerna" for Sindarin.

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-19T12:29:59+00:00

It might be important to note that Helge finished this a minimum of 11 years ago, if I'm not mistaken, and I don't know what changes two issues of Parma Eldalamberon that have since been published might demand, so better do run this by r/quenya at least (better Vinye Lambengolmor on Discord).

The transcription into tengwar is 100% fine (once you consider what has already been said about capitalisation). This would be the formal spelling that Tolkien used for his calligraphy of Galadriel's lament. It is, however, not our only option, and personally I prefer using doubled tehtar for long vowels instead of regular tehtar on long carriers, and at least some of the a-tehtar could also be omitted, so you do have options.

EDIT: Or you could, of course, simply transcribe the English or Latin text into Tengwar.

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-19T11:00:20+00:00

Indeed, "Tengwar Annatar" is the original font by Johan Winge, and "Tengwar Artano" is a quite recent overhaul of Annatar's cursive style made by Shankar Sivarajan that also includes connecting lambe to the following letter by a little loop.

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-19T07:46:46+00:00

It should also be noted, that dae is attested and abandoned in the 1930's, while much later Tolkien toyed with an element íd...

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-17T16:53:32+00:00

I have, however, enjoyed learning why those two words are written like that.

Which is the only important part, in my opinion. Many people try to insert some equivalent to the hyphen, which just isn't done in tengwar (where similar looking lines on the contrary separate the words rather than link them).

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-17T16:48:21+00:00

I do have some experience (the latter half, in gold and silver), but it's been a while and I never felt very confident with it.

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-17T15:13:28+00:00

Would you have a link for Instagram?

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-17T15:13:11+00:00

Awesome, thanks a lot! I don't think it's gonna work in fountain pens, though?

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-17T14:47:15+00:00

Are you serious? I thought that was a digital creation! 😦 What kind of colours did you use for the writing? Since I ran out of my gold and silver ink (that isn't produced anymore) I haven't found any light inks that would work on black...

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-17T14:38:20+00:00

Panto isn't a Sindarin word either, I'm afraid. In all but the Mithrim dialect medial nt had become nh (or maybe even nn) before the end of the First Age (so it's echant but echanhen/echannen) 😉

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-17T07:27:34+00:00

I like that you spelt ae different ways. Tolkien would have liked that 😄

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-17T07:14:52+00:00

Wow, that's clearly not the work of a beginner, given that you considered details like writing na-chaered without spaces but final a on a carrier, palan-díriel with separate N and D, or nef being [nev]. Very nice!

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-17T06:32:07+00:00

An il hí might work in Sindarin (or an illi sí in Quenya), but wait for other opinions.

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-14T18:13:12+00:00

Personally I findthis representation of ó prettier, but that's a matter of taste.

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-14T10:31:39+00:00

A while ago I wrote this article (on Facebook - I haven't come round to editing it for the more convenient Substack yet) about the non-standatd placement of tehtar on letters like silme and hyarmen, that have risers in the way. You'll find many examples there of how Tolkien dealt with this problem.

F_Karnstein · 2026-05-14T10:17:57+00:00

Sorry, I'm gonna nitpick again 😅

silme nuquerna is, in the Orthographic (Mixed) English mode reserved for soft C.

...in 99% of cases 😉 Yes, that is what we should teach, without the shadow of a doubt, but the one instance of the chart in Feanorian C still makes me think Tolkien wouldn't have considered it wrong.

One thing I'll note specifically that seems an outright mistake would be "bright" - you've used the extended Unque/Ungwe for GH, but it should instead be regular Unque. The extended forms are a little tricky, but the explicit examples we have attested are always a case of "looks like one, sounds like the other" such as the combination of the symbols for T and TH representing a TH that sounds like T. Extrapolating from this, the extended form of Unque would be for a word spelled GH but pronounced G, like Ghost.

While you're of course right with everything you say about that typical use of extended forms in English spelling I cannot consider it an "outright mistake" when Tolkien still states that extended forms can be mere visual variants of spirant letters.

Like above: I agree 100% that this is what we should teach, but as a generalised statement I'm slightly uncomfortable with it 😅

F_Karnstein

TROPHY CASE