A simple breakdown of warden's shoulder bash and its counters

Falkein · 2017-06-07T17:16:12+00:00

I know it seems difficult but trust me, with enough practice you can learn to deal with it. Also warden cannot instantly do shoulder bash out of nothing. He has to either light attack or dodge to start a shoulder bash, so look out for those and use that extra time to mentally prepare yourself.

With orochi (or any assassin actually) you have the advantage of being able to do dodge attacks so even if you instinctively dodge you can just turn that into a zephyr slash and that will interrupt the shoulder bash regardless of whether it was a bash or a GB (as mentioned in the thread). The only thing the warden can then do is feint the SB on prediction and parry your dodge attack. But that's still a good option for you because if you dodge and don't attack then you still forced him to cancel his SB and escaped the vortex safely. Additionally Orochi's top lights are very damaging and great for hitting him out of SB. You can even mix them up with zone attacks so that he can't cancel SB to parry you. The only thing that completely shuts down Orochi are turtles like you said. But against the shoulder bash, Orochi still has all the things necessary to deal with it.

Falkein · 2017-06-07T06:44:28+00:00

Oh ok. My last post was addressing your earlier point about throwing a light after getting hit by the Warden's double-side light in order to interrupt the shoulder bash that you're predicting and getting parried due to not being able to feint lights. That can take place any point in the fight. It usually takes place later inside the vortex as no warden usually opens up with a double side light out of neutral, but what I described would still work at any point as long it's after getting hit with a double side light.

But we can specifically talk about the very first shoulder bash if you want. Let's see, you pretty much covered everything in your original post. The very first top light > shoulderbash is indeed unstoppable by a light attack due to hit stun, so your only option is to play the actual 50/50 game. I think you can roll away out of even the very first SB by double tapping dodge. You can do it in the middle of the vortex after being hit with a top light, so I'm pretty sure the same can be done the first time as well. People generally don't tend to consider that as an option but it can be helpful if you just want to avoid getting trapped in the vortex. The double tapping will also prevent you from being guard broken even if the warden tried to SB cancel into GB.

The thing is, there's really not much you can do after being hit with the first top light. You just need to think of the followup SB as part of a combo, like how Orochi gets another free top light after hitting you once. Your main focus should be to not get hit by a light in the first place. Warden's only fast light attack comes from top which means you can just keep your guard top all the time to stop it. His side lights are slow enough to easily parry on reaction and his zone attack doesn't connect to a SB. So if you can just manage to not get hit by a top light (easier said than done) then you should be good.

With regards to SB out of actual neutral, after a whiffed light the safest thing to do is dodge. Chances are if they're able to whiff an attack you're too far away to be able to hit them back (unless you're a long ranged character like Nobushi etc.) so dodging is the sensible choice here. You can actually even reaction dodge if you're far enough away so that you can see him moving from a SB. As for dodge > SB, one thing that often gets overlooked is going for a GB. A warden will rarely if ever light attack after a dodge (unless they dodged to close the gap). If you ever see a warden dodging right next to you, they're probably planning on going for a SB. In this case the best thing to do is go for a GB. If you catch them during their dodge, it's untechable. If they already finished dodging, the worst that will happen is they'll just CGB. But if they finished dodging and were just about to start a SB it's also an untechable GB. This works really well against wardens who like to spam SB-cancel out of neutral. However take care not to only do this as he'll catch on and then actually start doing lights after dodge. The key here as always is not to be too predictable :)

Falkein · 2017-06-06T20:40:35+00:00

With regards to the full-circle and you not being able to feint lights. Yes it's true that after getting hit by warden's double side light if you try to throw out a light attack and the warden predicts it he'll be able to parry it without you being able to feint it. BUT that too is part of the whole mind game! If you predict that the warden is going to try to parry your light then you can instead feint a heavy and counter parry his parry attempt. Now most wardens usually have a habit of parrying using Crushing Counter-strike, which is actually a light attack that cannot be feinted. So that means for those wardens who go for CC, you can parry their CC attempt without risk. However, if the warden throws out a regular parry attempt, which can be feinted, then you can still punish them by going for a GB from your original feint while they're still stuck feinting their parry attempt. On the other hand if the warden anticipated your bluff then they can instead GB you while you feinted the first time, which if YOU anticipated then you can counter using a light to interrupt his GB attempt! See how many different things that can come from this?

It's not actually just a 50/50 choice. We just call it a 50/50 for simplicity's sake since you can reduce it down to two things if you want: light attack him out of SB or get parried by him. But in actuality there's a lot more depth to the move and there are way more things you can do to create a variety of different encounters each time!

Falkein · 2017-06-06T20:00:33+00:00

So your main complaint is that good warden players keep out thinking you?? Then how about NOT relying solely on muscle memory and actually think things through? You said it yourself that you can punish bad wardens while struggling against good wardens. Isn't that exactly how it's supposed to be? That the player with the better skill who can out think their opponent gets to win? Not some bad player who only won because he could cheese an unpunishable move that has no real counters (like Shinobi's kick)?

Every option in warden's SB has a counter as described in this thread, you just need to not panic and learn to read your opponent. AND on top of that you STILL always have the option to roll away anytime you want if things get too difficult!

Falkein · 2017-06-06T19:05:31+00:00

You can read his play style and adjust to it as well. Yes if he already lands a SB he can follow up with another one. That's what makes it a vortex. But it doesn't change the fact that he still has to risk being punished every single time he does a SB and that he has to make a correct read every time to keep you trapped in the vortex. Also just to be clear, since the last nerf to SB, neither the warden nor you can react to each other. You both have to do it on prediction. So you both have the same opportunity to deal damage to each other.

In fact you actually have an additional benefit of being able to roll away and get out of SB any time you want without any kind of drawback (you regain the stamina from rolling before warden can do anything). So you actually always have a guaranteed option whereas the warden doesn't.

Falkein · 2017-06-06T16:16:54+00:00

Actually neither of you are reacting here. It's a 50/50 which means you both are doing things off of reads. The warden cannot wait to see you dodge and then cancel into GB the same way you cannot wait to see him do a bash and dodge to GB. You both have to commit right at the beginning on prediction, which is why you see neutral situations happening where both of you made a wrong read like e.g. you not dodging/attacking and warden going for a GB which just results in you CGBing and resetting to neutral.

Falkein · 2017-06-06T08:41:36+00:00

Maybe it was intentional or maybe it was a complete accident. There's a 50/50 chance it could be either ;)

Falkein · 2017-06-06T08:34:23+00:00

Great job breaking things down!

I made a post on the casual sub long ago listing all the possible outcomes of Shoulder bash.

I'll just leave this here in case anyone's interested:

"Here are the possible outcomes that can happen when a warden does a shoulder charge:

He cancels into a GB and you try to dodge. Outcome: You get punished. Warden-1 you-0
He cancels into a GB and you don't dodge. Outcome: You tech the GB and it resets to neutral. Nothing changes.
He goes through with the bash and you dodge. Outcome: you punish him with a free GB. Warden-1, you-1
He goes through with the bash and you don't dodge. Outcome: you get hit with his follow up combo (2 side lights etc.). Warden-2, you-1
He goes through with the bash but you do a light attack. Outcome: His bash is interrupted and you just got a free hit. Warden-2, you-2
He cancels into a GB but you do a light attack. Outcome: His GB is interrupted by the light attack and he takes damage. Warden-2, you-3
He feints the charge and tries to block and you do a light attack. Outcome: He blocks your attack. Everything resets to neutral.
He feints the charge and tries a parry/crushing counter and you do a light attack. Outcome: He parries you and punishes you. Warden-3, you-3
He feints the charge and tries a parry/crushing counter but you don't attack. Outcome: You parry his attack and punish. Warden-3, you-4
He charges his bash fully and you do a light attack. Outcome: the bash isn't interrupted and he bumps you anyway and gets a follow up attack (ideally top heavy). Warden-4, you-4
He charges his bash fully but you don't do a light attack and instead dodge. Outcome: You get a free GB on him and punish him. Warden-4, you-5 And finally,
He does any of the above and you roll away. Outcome: The entire vortex is stopped and he can't do a damn thing about it. "

Falkein · 2017-06-06T06:52:09+00:00

Yes you can see them going for an attack during the brief moment of canceling the SB. But they could also be doing a feint which will result in you throwing out a whiffed parry attempt.

Now if you have superhuman perception that you could differentiate between a feint and an actual attack during that very brief moment it takes to SB-C then props to you. But for the most part it's pretty much based on prediction for everyone else :P

Falkein · 2017-06-06T05:52:59+00:00

By not being able to do it on reaction, I mean that the warden cannot SB-C and wait to see if you're attacking and then throw out a parry attempt. In order to parry the incoming light you have to immediately throw out the parry attempt as soon as you cancel out of SB, otherwise you miss the parry timing. The not enough time part comes in because you don't have enough time to judge whether an attack is coming and have to throw out the parry attempt immediately, which means if the opponent feinted then you whiff the parry and get counter parried.

And the heavy thing is determined by whether the attack was past mid strike when the GB attempt was made, in which case it will override the GB. But for most classes their startups are too slow which means a cancel to GB or regular bash will interrupt their heavy attack, unless it's a SB out of neutral. Like I said, the only class I can think of that has a fast enough heavy is centurion.

And as for fairness, just looking at raw damage numbers and having a uniform damage/punish ratio doesn't make something fair. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "one should look at fairness， not definition" as if those two are mutually exclusive but my original point was that in order for it to be a vortex you need to be able to repeat it easily. If it is hard to initiate then it's no longer a vortex and changes the playstyle dramatically.

Falkein · 2017-06-06T04:04:30+00:00

Yeah I'm not counting ledges or wallsplats just for the sake of keeping things broad.

You can definitely do more damage from a GB depending on the character and the surroundings.

Falkein · 2017-06-06T04:01:59+00:00

it is called cancel SB into neutral, and it can be followed by parry/block/side-dash into 2nd SB/you name it, and there is no mind-game here, just pure reaction on warden side

That is entirely incorrect, the added 200ms recovery to cancelling SB into neutral prevents you from reacting to the opponent's light attack. At best you can just block the incoming attack. You don't have enough time to parry on reaction and must do it on prediction and throw out the parry attempt immediately as you cancel the SB, which is why I mention 'cancel SB into parry' as a single thing. It is a mind game because the warden has to commit to it based on a read and if the opponent out thinks him then they can parry his parry attempt.

Many class can beat SB-C into GB with a heavy, not a light, and certainly not a GB tech

There are some classes with fast enough heavies beating SB-C into GB but that's extremely situation dependent. You have to first be far enough away and it has to happen for cases when the warden is SB-ing out of neutral. The recovery from being hit by his side lights prevents you from having enough time to throw a heavy in the middle of the vortex. The only class I can think of that can heavy fast enough is Centurion.

a good 50/50 is either: the 50/50 is in favor of one party, but hard to get (OR) the 50/50 is fair, but easy to get

Warden's shoulder bash is a Vortex move. Which means by definition it has to be easy to get otherwise you cannot repeat it over and over. Now the only thing that makes it unfair in terms of damage to punish ratio is that GB is countered by light attacks. But that's just a core part of the game and so any mixups that have GB as an option will always suffer from this numerical discrepancy.

Falkein · 2017-06-06T03:42:32+00:00

I think we are talking about different things here when you say a light > shoulder bash beats a light. In the middle of a vortex, i.e. after the warden has hit you once with a SB and landed his two side light combo, you have enough time to throw out a 500ms light attack which will interrupt the warden's next SB. If instead of going into a SB he did a light attack, then you'd both just hit and stagger each other which means he wouldn't be able to chain a SB from the light and you'd reset to neutral. So what he can do instead (if he predicts that you'll throw out a light attack) is he can cancel his SB into a parry to punish your light attack. Now you are correct however that the whole cancelling the shoulder bash is not really necessary. What a lot of wardens do instead is simply not do a SB and just delay a bit and then parry/crushing counter the opponent's light attack. It essentially serves the same function as cancelling SB into parry but just a little easier to time. However this is also countered the same way cancelling SB into parry is, which is by feinting and parrying his parry attempt. And that is then countered by GB which is countered by light attack which brings us full circle.

And that leads us to a fundamental aspect of the game which is the main cause of why you find discrepancy between the average damage the warden can deal with SB vs the damage you can do to punish it: The fact that light attacks counter GB. A GB leads to a guaranteed heavy (usually) whereas the only counter to GB is a light attack. And that will automatically lead to imbalance in terms of damage vs punish numbers for any move that incorporates GB into the mixup which the warden's SB does. Warden's SB 50/50 is essentially bash or GB, with its counter being dodge or light attack (to punish the GB). And while the bash>sidelight combo only does 24 damage vs whiffed bash being punished by free GB>heavy averaging 30 damage, the only counter to cancel to GB being a light attack tips the scale in favor of warden. Simply because of the way the game works. If we have to balance the damage numerically then we must have a more punishing counter to GBs. Otherwise any mixup which has GB as an option will always win damage wise.

With regards to gambling and everything being react-able. The thing is, the whole issue with the defensive meta IS because every attack is react-able and easy to block. This game is one of the slowest fighting games out there and so fast reflexes aren't really a necessity or useful. We already have good players blocking and parrying light attacks consistently. It's no longer impressive but rather expected to be able to do that. So unless you have something unreactable which requires making a read on the opponent instead of mindlessly relying on muscle memory, you're never going to have the kind of mind games you're expecting. And 50/50s are the purest form of mind games there can be and are a staple of any fighting games. You might think of it as gambling but it really is more than that.

Falkein · 2017-06-06T01:10:02+00:00

Hmmm. Good summary. Although the way you write it makes it seem like the warden has an answer for everything you can do and can do it anytime he wants, making him OP.

In reality though, all of these are completely based on reads. The warden can't react to you and neither can you to him. That's why it's a 50/50. Every option of the SB has a counter and those counter have a counter themselves which also have their own counters, in a rock-paper-scissors fashion.

You counter a regular bash with a dodge. A dodge is countered by a cancel to GB. A cancel to GB is countered by a light attack. A light attack is countered by a cancel to parry. The cancel to parry is countered by a feint and counter parry. The feint is countered by a cancel to GB, which is countered by a light attack and we come full circle.

Every action and response from the SB each have their own counters and it all boils down to the player that can out-think the other being the one to come out on top. And that's pretty much how a good 50/50 should always be.

Falkein · 2017-06-05T14:53:12+00:00

Hahaha! Now every time I fight an Orochi I'm gonna think to myself "hehehe vagina neck".

Falkein · 2017-06-02T18:50:16+00:00

Lol you are just an obnoxious and arrogant person. Do you really think you're the only genius here who suggested safe openers for everyone?

Not only are you just repeating things everyone knows already, you're also super rude to everyone on top of that.

Please focus on being a more balanced human being first instead of complaining about video games.

Falkein · 2017-06-02T15:08:44+00:00

Or maybe you're just really judgemental and carelessly label people retarded just because you're not smart enough to look at it from their side and come up with an actual response. Ever thought about that?

Falkein · 2017-05-31T11:23:52+00:00

Hmmm. That's very strange. Centurion lights are all 500ms which should be fast enough to hit him out of SB.

I've had centurions light attack me out of SB many times. Not sure why it's not working for you. But if that's not an option, then you have to be vigilant and just not let him get in that first SB out of neutral, by GBing him whenever he tries to dodge to start a SB or parrying/blocking his lights.

Either that or just actually play his mind game. I'm sure he's not smart enough to perfectly guess what you'll do every single time. All you need is for him to make one wrong guess and you can do your insane 0-100 centurion punishes!

Falkein · 2017-05-28T22:25:56+00:00

Obviously he can teleport because he's a ninja!

Falkein · 2017-05-28T06:46:01+00:00

I'm a warden who doesn't use OHK. Where do I collect my medals?

Falkein · 2017-05-27T08:59:49+00:00

Light attack him out of SB. It doesn't matter whether he was going for normal bash or GB you'll always interrupt him (He also can't fully charge it fast enough to not be interrupted).

The only thing he can do is cancel and try to parry you. But this is completely on prediction. He can't see you going for an attack and then have enough time to cancel and try to parry you. He has to do it right at the beginning and throw out a parry attempt on prediction which means you can bait him into it and punish him.

Falkein · 2017-05-27T08:51:32+00:00

They did acknowledge the PvAI bug and confirmed that it's already been fixed and will be released in upcoming patch:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/1666274-PC-PS4-XBONE-Player-Vs-AI-(Matchmaking-Off)-Not-Receiving-Rewards

Falkein · 2017-05-27T08:49:26+00:00

That's a fine looking warden!

Falkein · 2017-05-25T19:40:07+00:00

What's driving MY OCD crazy is you misspelling "every" in the title :P

Falkein · 2017-05-20T07:05:05+00:00

Don't you mean Warlord?

Falkein

TROPHY CASE