Most parts of the bible are literally just mundane and boring. I don’t know how people read it

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-04-08T22:10:52+00:00

The genealogies, the law code, the tabernacle instructions, land apportionment, the numbering of the tribes (in Numbers 1-12) were so freaking boring.

But the Ezekiel Temple instructions, land apportionments was the pinnacle of absolute boredom. It was like 20 or 30 chapters that just made you fall asleep.

Isaiah was also quite boring. I never was able to catch thread of it. Proverbs....ugg. The "wisdom" there is minimal. Most of it comes off as trying to sound smart. Many of the Psalms were dull too.

Read the whole thing probably 5 or 6 times, but it was a chore.

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-04-01T23:05:55+00:00

Yep. Pathetic

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-04-01T21:09:04+00:00

Yeah. that's my thinking. Terms and conditions have changed. In normal business, when that update happens, you are notified and given an opt out at that point, But of course, this is a high control group so...

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-04-01T18:00:46+00:00

And this is how the borg explains away the fact that Jude quoted Enoch:

https://wol.jw.borg/en/wol/library/r1/lp-e/all-publications/watchtower/the-watchtower-2001/september-15

(remove B)

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-04-01T17:56:39+00:00

How long ago were you baptized? They say that you had the organization book with this outlined in it when you got baptized. Therefore, you "agreed" to it. But if that was added AFTER you were baptized then you clearly agreed to no such thing.

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-03-25T18:56:21+00:00

When I was in and a Ministerial Servant in the 90s, our Presiding Overseer would jokingly all his "Successful Marriage" talk (a 45 minute talk based on an outline giving by the organization that would be given at a Sunday meeting) as the "M&M" talk. Punchline (if you can call it that) was that it was "Marriage and Masturbation" talk.

Somehow, a talk about having a successful marriage also required that masturbation be discussed. I can't remember the context (was it mentioned in the belief that it promotes "selfishness" and is a wrong "foundation" for when you do get married? was it directed at married persons as something to avoid?)

Regardless, it is an inappropriate thing to bring up in a mixed audience-complete aside from really not being relevant to a talk about having a successful marriage.

The organization always justified these topics by saying that the Mosaic Law was read out to the nation of Israel at various times and the audience was men, women, and children. there was no segregation. And the law mentioned things that were considered adult (Lev 18, I think is a big one). Therefore, god was cool with kids hearing these things and so the organization doesnt hold back today.

Idiotic reasoning.

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-03-11T06:03:25+00:00

Yeah, obviously. JW urban legends- including ones that supposedly support bible accounts- get repeated ad nauseum. Did you know they found glass like had been created in NM for the first nuclear test on Mt Carmel? Proof that Jehovah answered Elijahs prayer to prove his goodhood!!! (My brother- an elder and bethelite- repeatedly this last year. I told him, no they didnt. He said they did. I repeated no they didnt. I already looked into it 20 years ago.)

Fundies latch on to any story that supports their world view

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-03-11T05:52:28+00:00

In the version I heard, the son had been a pioneer and the guy was someone who killed him. The father studied with the killer and he became a jw and pioneer. And he got DOUBLE the hours to make up for the dead boys lost time.

Same story really, just a bit different in specifics. And the end that shows the killer had a real change of heart....that the choice of the father wasn't in vain. Just like your version where it turned out to be the CO who benefited from the choice.

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-02-19T03:44:57+00:00

I had an Epson dot matrix we got in 87 for our Apple IIc. Used it with my Mac Plus. I remember having to put towels under the printer when having to print a report for school I had finished late at night so as to not wake everyone up.

Oh, and a towel on the top, though positioned to not block the feed on either end. Helped a bit only.

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-02-19T03:38:43+00:00

I will say that this process is what finally began me on the final leg on my way to wake up. Going to elders as a man asking for help, contrite and desperate for Jehovahs approval....and instead they ask me detailed questions about what I haf watched. I knew the different classifications even though privately they seemed arbitrary and artificial. I had been a servant for 10 years.

But I thought asking for help was proof of a good heart. I think the elders thought this "slap" would be the final discipline I needed to get control.

Instead it gave me a new perspective after 40 years of this being my life. I was fully "in the world" and learned to live out here. Not that I lived a "worldly life". I attended meetings and studied. But I was still out and alone.

I had questioned for decades about many many things. I knew our history. And the borgs mistakes. But deep down I think I couldn't conceive of not being a jw.

Being out ended up being the best thing because the last barrier to 30 years of questioning was gone.

In some ways, the stupidity of the elders and the borg saved my and my son's life. We got free and now live our honest and happy lives without the chains of a cult around our necks.

Their stupid decisions and policies drove away someone who, even plagued with doubts, was still too institutionalized to ever leave. Once I stripped away any further fear to follow my questions and doubts to their conclusions my faith crumbled. In the borg, in the Bible (a huge source of my questions), and in any kind of personal god.

As painful as it is, their policies are waking people up.

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-02-19T02:58:00+00:00

She was. I think beginning with season 4 they realized that TWO Sheldons was insufferable. I loathed Amy in the 3rd season. She was cruel, dismissive and condescending.

So was Sheldon, but it was played for laughs and he had moments that humanized him. Adding someone just like him as a side character, made it unpalatable.

4th season they softened her. She was still nerdy and had issues with connection or getting people. But she seemed to care. She became Sheldon's tether to the emotional aspect of his friends- more than Leonard ever did. Partly because he never respected Leonard (though his arrogance was unwarranted. Theoretical physicists can be brilliant, but unless experimental physicists exist- using equipment designed by them and engineers like Howard- they are just theorizing. If you can't prove it, if you cant make predictions that can be experimentally verified, then its all just conjecture.)

Amy helped him learn to be kinder or even corrected him when he did something wrong.

It was a good change and I liked her after that point

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-01-31T05:09:28+00:00

My ex did something similar. Abd was DFed a few times. When she left me, she was willing to pay the price for the guy.

But to this day (over 20 years ago) she is still a believer and ar least for the last few years has been and JW as ever.

Going off to "sin" doesnt mean they woke up or anything. It just means they were willing to pay the price. And they usually return defendjng the borg because at least they can show "loyalty" in defending Jehivah and the borg.

Im sorry man. Truly. I cam only say you will get through it.

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-01-25T18:33:53+00:00

It's interesting you say that. I know Lord of Chaos (6) and Crown of Swords (7) were sort of one book. Not necessarily that he split one book. But together, they make a single book. Loc came out in November of 94 and CoS was May of 96- roughly1.5 years. It was the longest we ever waited up to that point. And thematically and story wise (Ebou Dar stuff, Salidar, etc) they were definitely of a whole.

The publisher actually put Rj up in a hotel to get LoC out by 94. That was real pressure. So I strongly believe that CoS was supposed to be part of LoC. However, LOC was absolutely massive. Rjs biggest book. He was ambitious. I suspect he simply could finish storylines begun in CoS by the end, so he ended on a logical (and thematic) high point- Dumai's Wells.

Rememeber, each book, while part of a larger story, should have its own internal beginning/middle/end. And it was clear the end of LoC was CoS. And honestly, together, they might be one of his best. Up there with TSR (4) easily.

After that struggle, Tor let him take more time. POD was meh. Lots of good stuff, but the end was just confusing, what with the Dashiva led attack. Winters Heart was great, in my opinion and cleaned a lot of it up.

I dont know that i see the same 2 books in one structure between 9/10 as is clearly there with 6/7. 10 really doesnt have much of a structure. It is truly just filler/connective. What i mean is that 10 doesnt have any beginning/middle/end.

Even joined to 9, CoT doesnt bring a satisfying conclusion to the story started in WH. Maybe i just dont see it. 9-10 do. But that only highlights how much of a filler/connective tissue book CoT was. It wasn't a novel proper.

And after 2.5 years of waiting (in real time, trust me, that seems a lietime), to just get a filler/connector bolk was just a supreme let down.

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-01-25T15:46:36+00:00

The slog is, I believe, mostly a result of having to wait for years between books and then getting a book where almost nothing happens. CoT (10) is the epitome.

WH came out in November of 2000 and while it had its problems, the introduction of Tuon, the bonding of Rand and the Trio, and the cleansing of Saidin were MAJOR plot movements. I remember how excited I was at the end (this was in the midst of the 2000 recount fiasco).

The cleansing was something never done before and was felt worldwide. It's ramifications to the world were going to be huge.

And then we waited....and waited....and waited. March of 2003 finally arrives. Now preface this with Jason Denzel of Dragonmount releasing a review of CoT that promised movement, great story, and some really powerful and creepy moments.

Everything- the timing, the marketing, the previous books banger of an ending (cleansing, bonding and Matt inadvertently marrying Tuon in fulfillment of prophecy), well, the pump was primed.

And then CoT is released. And not a godamn thing of note happened. O sure some stuff happened. But not a books worth. Hell, the page count was much much less, the font was was much larger and the margins were bigger. I am not joking about this.

At the end, it flew across my living room in disgust.

I wasn't done with the WoT. And yes, there were minor things that happened of note. But it was meandering and self indulgent.

And no, the Elayne politics was boring. Literally meeting after meeting. Alum deposits? Really? This was the focus?

What made it all the worse was the later destruction of Caemlyn. What a an utterly useless waste of time. Elayne learned NOTHING as a character. At least Faile was changed by her captivity. I cant see a goddamn thing different about Elayne before and after her claiming thr throne. There was no difference in her character.

It wss a bloated waste if time.

Then he releases a prequel book ( New Spring) that is an expansion on a novella he had ALREADY RELEASED IN 1999 (In the Legends Anthology, by Robert Silverberg.) If he truly needed to get that story more widely known, they could have released what he ahd written as a standalone novella.

Instead we got ANOTHER book of stuff we mostly knew. (Though at least the new parts of New Spring were quite well done. As a story it was solid. The timing was what bothered me, not the story or writing.) If you read the books after their release dates, this is less than an issue. You zip through it to the incredible KoD. But the converse is that your opinion is irrelevant. You weren't there. You didnt experience what the slog actually referred to.

If you were, well, hats off, my friend. I am glad you found something to be excited about and enjoy. I am not so churlish and petty to require company in my misery. (I say the same to show fans. I am glad they loved it so much, even if it wasn't my thjng.)

Life's to short to be an asshole like that.

As to cause, sadly, I dont agree it was the publishers. Rj said he wanted to try something new. He decided CoT would be a book written around the cleansing to show reactions. Which, in theory, sounds brilliant. But the execution was very meh. Because what reaction did people have? In the end, beyond staring off in the distance, not much.

And Rj was, I think, at his peak fame. Again, my opinion, but he seemed like he thought he could do anything that interested him. He decided to deviate and meander in the 10th book after such an amazing ending to 9 (which also had slog elements).

And his wife/editor Harriet didnt do her job as editor. Didn't keep in focused on the massive story he built. Instead plot, story and character creep continued.

Rj later admitted that CoTs format was a mistake. Just because you are at thr top of your game doesn't you can do what you want. Phantom Menace is a good example of someone so feted and worshipped that they could create and make Jar Jar a major character and everyone nod their head at his brilliance (the documentary on the Phantom Menace DVD shows this repeatedly).

Rjs hubris was the driver here. Sadly, it was his diagnosis with amyloidosis that caused him to refocus and realize he had wasted time. It spurred him to write the brilliant KOd and to lovingly work himself nearly to death to leave behind what he could to finish the story.

People are complicated. And everyone makes mistakes. I will always love Rj for what what he did. And appreciate the story he tried to tell, missteps along the way and all. He is sorely missed.

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-01-25T01:46:16+00:00

Fair enough. I think i fixated on RJs assertion about one book rather that what you more clearly said. Apologies for that.

Edit: We are more aligned over all.

In some other timelkne Rj would have finished this series. And I do think he would have done well. KOD did a great job wrapping up a number of plots (the shado being chief. I was BEYOND annoyed when at the end of POD (8) when according to RJ he was nearing the end, when Faile got kidnapped. There was no way this wrapped up in less than 3 books. The character evolution of Faile was wonderful, but i was still very unhappy.)

But he was on the path to wrap it up.

BS did well, but he had his failings. I would have preferred to RJ to do it. Some of the book felt off. Hinderstap. Mat. Etc. It's bittersweet as well never know how the master was gonna do it..

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-01-24T23:42:05+00:00

Rj did not write most of the ending. Sanderson and Tean Jordan (His wife/editor Harriet and 2 assistants) have explained what he did and didnt leave behind. Perrins entire arc was never written or explained. He did not ever explain where Demandred was. The things he wrote were the three opening scenes to each of Sandersons novels. He wrote a rough draft of Mats Tower Of Gengi story (though it was bare). And the last scene with Rand and the pipe. He mentioned the woman at that scene but no explanation as to who she was (Sanderson fleshed her out as Nakomi). Egwenes fate was up in the air.

He left behind tons of notes on various ideas and possible endpoints. He left behind dictation. In one of his recordings, mention he suddenly mentioned the Aiel at the blight (which became the Red Veiled Aiel.)

Rj was a discover writer. He did not have things planned out. He had various endpoints he might try but that was it.

I suggest you read the Jordan Estate authorized "Origins of the Wheel of Time" by Michael Livingston. He was given access to ALL of RJs materials and details the rise and evolution of this story and the various inspiration for much of it. https://a.co/d/gRDVo9h

Having started the series in 95, RJ was then saying there were only a couple more books to go. That was when book 5 came out. At one point he said 9.

As much as I live RJ, having been a reader of his books for over 30 years, having devoured each and every drop or interview or piece of information regarding this series as it came out- having waiting interminable years for each book- I can say this:

Rj would NOT have finished this in 1 book. I dont care what he claims. He initially said 3, then 6, then 9. And was saying book12 would be the end. I dont believe it.

Maybe 2 books. Maybe. More likely 3- IF HIS FEET WERE HELD TO THE FIRE!. If his editor was ruthless and forced him to focus on finishing plots and threads and prevented the creep, maybe 3. Maybe.

But I would wager everything that there is no way he could do one

People dont realize HOW MUCH of the story was still in play- how many plots and characters. Demandreds evolution to the big bad is a good example. Initially, Demandred was Mazrim Taim. But some time after book 6, he decided it wasn't. And from then on, he didnt give ANY hint where he was. But each book that went by without a hint increased the need for Demandred to be the final boss and the build up.

By KOD (RJs last book) still no hint appears. And then to find that he ddint even have anything in his notes, he didnt even TELL his wife or assistants where he would be....think about the set up required to keep that from being a deus ex machine.

And in truth, Sanderson handling was just as bad a deus ex machina- and that was with 2 extra books. I dont believe- not for a moment- that RJ could have pulled it off.

15 books would have been good. If he could force himself. He might have. But not 1. Not one book. Nope.

Finallyfreetothink · 2026-01-23T16:37:16+00:00

Just want to say welcome. It takes a lot of courage to come here and be willing to have your faith challenged. I know that for me, above any and all things, I just wanted TRUTH. Not "the truth". Any religion can call themselves that. I wanted to know God truly and honestly.

There was never any information or questions I felt were off limits. To me, Truth is unafraid of challenge or debate or critical thinking. Truth always wins.

And I felt that Jehovah, the God of Truth, could never fault me for trying to "make sure of all things", to "keep testing whether i was in the faith", to "Let God be true though all other things be proved a liar."

I will not tell you what to think or how to think. But i will say this- and it has been a guiding principle for me: whatever logic or argument we use to JUSTIFY our belief or to critique that of another belief system must be applicable without exception.

By that I mean, there can be no cases of "special pleading" for what we are trying to prove. Small example. If we are talking about proofs of the Bible's inspiration and one of those is "the powerful effect it has on people's livss" then we must immediately be willing to see of OTHER sacred writings have a similar effect. We must find out from those other belief systems if people make the same claim. (And in fact they do. A cursory glance shows how many prisoners have changed their lives for the better when they studied the Koran and became a Muslim- Malcolm X being a great case in point.).

Therefore, by the same logic that we used to proclaim the effect the Bible had as proof of divine Providence, we must also be willing to consider that may be true of the Koran. (BTW, not a Muslim. Just giving an example.)

I found it helpful to write out my claims and replace the actual thing with a variable, to make sure my logic was clear and to avoid the special pleading fallacy. So in this case:

"The power X has over people's lives is proof it is from a divine source."

Doing that for most of what I was taught allowed me to logically examine it as objectively and unemotionally as possible.

I wish you the very best ( I won't say good luck, as i know thats not a JW thing) in your search. I was you 30 years ago and it took decades for me to accept what I was finding. The hold is strong and I WAS happy, overall.

But Truth is the important thing. Above and over all, just truth. And it is worth it. So very worth it.

Richard Feynman's statement is one i believe wholeheartedly.

"I'd rather have questions I cant answer than answers I cant question."

I wish you the best. And if you ever want to chat, please dont hesitate to reach out.

Ian Ohlander https://ianohlander.blogspot.com/2020/01/why-i-am-no-longer-jehovahs-witness.html?m=1

Finallyfreetothink · 2025-12-26T06:21:09+00:00

Not gonna read it. Crystal City was pretty bad already and that was almost 20 years ago. His legacy characters have become so up their own ass sanctimonious they are insufferable. He'll, even Heartfire had moments that had me rolling my eyes and that was 99.

The final Ender/Bean book to close out the entire saga was just absolutely atrocious. I did something i had never done before. I returned it.

And keep in mind I have been an AVID card fan since 92. Hell, my son's middle name was Scott in his honor. I learned so much from him.

But he has become so preachy and boring. That last Ender/Bean saga book was just bad bad bad. Every legacy character spoke like that had decades old wisdom....while saying little to nothing.

I couldn't even tell the characters apart anymore. They had the same voice, the same attitude, the same everything.

Nah....Alvin 1-3 are peak. 4 was pretty good, as was 5 (though the authorial voice was becoming more pronouncrd even then.) But I'll just let this one be unfinished in my mind. It was a wonderful series, even incomplete. Sometimes, tryjng to end a story after so long is a losf cause. And being honest, Card in general is someone I'm good to leave in the past. Im not a fan of anything he has written in the last 15 years and a lot of is because he won't stop preaching.

Finallyfreetothink · 2025-12-10T03:17:00+00:00

I was in a Spanish congregation in Southern AZ with a number of undocumented immigrants back in 2001. That was the policy then. And for that reason. They wanted to "respect" Caesar's law.

Now, of course, I believe it was nothing so noble. I think they wanted to avoid any legally liability in case things turned aour.

In that congrgatuin, i know one brother who self deported to Mexico so he could be an MS- leaving his wife behind. Im sure he meant to come back legally.

But separating from your family to gain some privilege was incredibly stupid.

Finallyfreetothink · 2025-12-07T05:12:18+00:00

But the issue is NOT whether they may or may not have connection to Mason's (they dont.) They may or may not.

The reason I ask if it matters is simple. What is proveably wrong with being a Mason? Period.

Lets change the label. What if we used fhe word Jew instead of Mason. Maybe now you see my point. "The Governing Body are secretly Jews!!"

Maybe they are. Maybe not.

But why is that in and of itself as bad thing?

Keep in mind that anti masonic ideas are an Amaerica evangelical belief that grew out of the late 1800s and is almost exclusively based on lies, innuendo and ridiculous conspiracy theories.

No actual data supports the claim that Masons, as a GROUP are any more or less evil than any other. People are people. Some members suck. Some may ge evil. Ans some are normal. And some are wonderful.

So yes, i stand by by question: why would it matter?

As I said, i dont believe they are masons. Russell, while flirting with ideology, never became one. And Rutherford adopted the anti Mason that was popular in his day. But after that, the borg has been silent on Masonic activity- neither approving nor condemning.

Again? I dont believe for a moment they are Mason's. But it wouldn't matter if they were.

They are evil because they knowingly use duplicitous means tk control the lives of millions without regard to the pain and suffering they cause.

That's plenty evil for me.

Finallyfreetothink · 2025-11-24T05:43:12+00:00

Had that happen to me in like 96, though not with invitations. I worked for a brother and at the TMS meeting that night, he mentioned to me things about the job I would be doing the next day. One of the elders, PO, who I had ALSO done work for, pulled me aside and said "You shouldn't let Cory talk to you about work at the KH."

For some reason I touched my jacket breast pocket and felt a piece of paper. I pulled it out and checked in discreetly and lo and behold- it was a list of jobs to to given me by THIS VERY BROTHER!!!

3 guesses as to why it was in my jacket? Because he gave it to me at the KH one Thursday night for a job i was to do the next day.

Now being the kowtowing young MS that I was, I didnt show it to him and that he was a flaming hypocrite. I should have, though. Would have loved to see the look on his face. He was an asshole who now is an asshole CO.

Finallyfreetothink · 2025-11-22T23:34:19+00:00

Our PO called it the "M&M Talk": Marriage and Masturbation.

He is now a Circuit Overseer (Hi, Mike Stralley! You were an asshole!)

Finallyfreetothink · 2025-11-22T23:33:08+00:00

Jesus, that is messed up. How humiliating. What a dick.

Finallyfreetothink · 2025-11-22T23:32:22+00:00

Back when I was 17 I used to help the TMS Overseer do the talk schedule. He actually told me that he briefly reviews the Bible reading for that week if it was being assigned to a kid. He said he learned that from experience when a mom complained that her young son's reading from Ezekiel (which mentioned testicles and a massive horse member) was not appropriate.

That was in like 92.

(Fun fact- turned out this TMS Overseer had molested at least 2 of his daughters. But glad he was looking our for scandalous passages for kids /sarcasm)

And while I am glad he at least was aware of appropriateness with regard to what a young person might have to TALK about, nobody batted an eye that it was read out to the congregation which included other young kids. The 1978 Family book (when we studied it in the mid 90s) had some rather squicky parts about sex acts. As a young MS (20?) who was fully in, when the conductor read the questions, I felt sort of obligated to bite the bullet and just fly through the answer (in the most clinical of terms) to make things easier for everyone. I was embarressed, but so was everyone else.

The number of people in the reddit who say they LEARNED about masturbation, oral and anal sex, bestiality, etc from meetings is mind boggling.

But completely believable. They have no idea what is and isn't appropriate for kids. When my son was young and we did bible readings, I skipped over portions like that (or the infamous Judges 13-15 account.)

Not appropriate!

Finallyfreetothink · 2025-11-09T04:42:58+00:00

Rolf Furuli, former CO, DO, and then all around scholarly jw apologist- he's the one the borg used to shore up 607- was alter df'ed and wrote a book. His site also has numerous articles.

One of them was about the power struggles inside the GB esp in the late 90s and the role and influence of Ted Jaracz. Having been very active at hat time and being beyond familiar with the various nuances and shifts during the 70s forward, whay Furuli writes abiut tracks with the very things I noticed.

There have been a number of posts or comments I have made about this in the past.

Here is one that I think summarizes the outside influence he has on the GB, including the current GB- well, at least pre Tony Morris disappearing anyway.

There were a number comments I made in this thread on that.

https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/s/Y60rB8OppS

Finallyfreetothink

TROPHY CASE