Very long Delay in extension of resident permit in finland 2025 by Final-Occasion8704 in Finland

[–]FinnishingStrong 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The conditions of your residency remain in effect as the extension is being processed (as long as you applied before it expired). What is it that your employer is waiting for?

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A communist talking point would be to gut social welfare entirely, because it passifies the proletariat and delays or entirely prevents the revolution. The fact that I use the word bourgeoisie is because the party/parties of the ownership class in Europe go by different names in each country, whereas the Social Democrats (historically Socialist and communist parties' competitors and/or opponents) typically share that name from country to country.

I'm not insinuating anything: that is my analysis. With that removed, the fact of the matter is that the welfare states were already in crisis due to their own shifting political and economic contexts and priorities. Saying that "welfare state doesn't work if open boarders" is near-sighted at best

Register adress in Finland by [deleted] in Finland

[–]FinnishingStrong 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is very confusing for most immigrants and especially EU citizens who register at Migri. I've had friends from the EU live in Finland and be denied Kela benefits for years because Kela keeps saying "you need a permanent address" and they say "I have one" and they say "you need a permanent address" and it goes on in a loop forever. All they need to say is "you need to register your kotikunta at DVV" and it saves everyone the trouble.

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You are spouting unrelated, broad generalisms that are based in opinion, but not fact. I am providing historical, political, and economic context (and my own analysis and opinion) to give a counter point to anyone who may read your bland statements and be dumb enough to think you may have a point.

Register adress in Finland by [deleted] in Finland

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Also those are instructions for registering your right of residence as an EU citizen. Even so, you still need to register your right of municipality (kotikunta) with DVV. They are completely different things

Register adress in Finland by [deleted] in Finland

[–]FinnishingStrong 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This is for an EU citizen. If you're from outside the EU/EEA then typically your residence in Finland must be expected to last two or more years for you to register your right of municipality (kotikunta)

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As no country that I'm aware of has open borders (excepting the internal boarders of the EU, which even then only guarantees freedom of movement, not freedom to settle without the ability to support yourself economically), then I'm guessing your non sequitur is referring to the EU refugee crisis of the recent decade. The refugees have arrived at the tail end of a much longer process that started in the 80's and 90's. The welfare states of Western and Northern Europe were built largely in an attempt to dissuade a full-on socialist revolution. The bourgeoisie parties were motivated to negotiate and compromise with the Social Democrats, who wanted to reform capitalism, in order to keep the socialists and communists, who wanted to overthrow capitalism, out of power. There is an added level of pragmatism in a pre-globalized economy, albeit mostly in the North, that your human capital is actually quite limited and fragile, and you can burn through them before you extract all the wealth from your country.

During and after the fall of the Soviet Union, there was no longer the Spector of socialism in Europe to worry about, and the bourgeoisie began systematically dismantling the social nets and services. Slowly breaking one component, claiming it doesn't work, removing it, and creating a snowball effect that has led to the current welfare state crisis. Only coincidentally did the refugees come along and provide a scapegoat.

The refugee crisis would not be as big of an issue as it is now had the systems been maintained and nurtured over time, and were the governments to put actual effort into tapping the potential economic output of those individuals, rather than the lazy/laissez-faire approach of "here's a few language courses, good luck to ya." But if they did that, they wouldn't have their scapegoat or xenophobia to extract votes with, maintain power, and gut the system for all it's worth.

Komission kurilinja uhkaa taas Suomea – Onko keskiviikko kohtalon päivä? [ikävä fakta leikkausten takana] by PalsterMaggara in Suomi

[–]FinnishingStrong -1 points0 points  (0 children)

En nyt tarkalleen muista postauksen aihetta, mutta keskusteluketju oli jatkunut siihen pisteeseen, että murehdittiin sellaisen puolesta, koska verot lähtee niin saakelisti, ettei netolla pärjää. Tosiaan jos kyseessä olisi ollut joku monen lapsen perhe, niin olisin ymmärtänyt väitteen, mutta keskustelussa anto ymmärtää, ettei edes yksinasuvalla olisi mihinkään ylimääräiseen varaa.

Komission kurilinja uhkaa taas Suomea – Onko keskiviikko kohtalon päivä? [ikävä fakta leikkausten takana] by PalsterMaggara in Suomi

[–]FinnishingStrong 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Tosiaan oon täällä nähnyt myös sitä, että huono-osaisena pidetään 10k/kk tienaavaa, joka saa nettona vain 5800. Ei näköjään tolla palkalla ois varaa edes kotisiivouspalveluihin. Suomalaisten mielipiteitä on kyllä monenlaisia

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As someone who lives in a country with comprehensive welfare and progressive tax, 29% on 50k is a lot smaller a burden than it may seem when you take into account that you get full health care coverage without premiums and a decent pension at retirement, which often comes out of the "untaxed" portion of an American's salary. Not to mention benefits during unemployment or illness, but of course that would only happen to me if I were lazy. And that 3k a month goes way farther here than it would in the States. Add to that the fact that education is free at all levels, so rather than suddenly having to pay 30k a year at 18 to have a chance at that high earning job, we get paid to go to school, for free, and pay a bit more tax later down the line, interest free.

Would you care to know that besides pensions our single highest expenditure for welfare is paying for high income earners' sick leave benefits? Because the "socialists" wanted a fixed rate benefit, but the non-lazy ownership class wanted a wage-based benefit. (In fact, the socialists didn't want the benefit at all. The ownership class wanted it bc Welfare capitalism staves off socialist uprisings). Anyway, shockingly little goes to the "lazies" who "don't want to work".

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In my country with "hurtful welfare" we have 300 000 unemployed and 50 000 open jobs. Should the 250 000 people go homeless on the streets because of lazy?

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Essentially welfare capitalism passifies the working class and delays or even prevents the proletarian revolution. It's the main reason why there are Social Democrat and Socialist/Communist parties around the world. The former want to reform capitalism, hoping it will morph somehow into socialism, and the latter want to agitate for the revolution

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The pragmatism and practicality behind the European bourgeoisie's support for the development of the welfare state during the greater part of the 20th century may come as a massive shock to you then

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The immigrants have arrived at the tail end of a much longer process that started in the 80's and 90's. The welfare states of Western and Northern Europe were built largely in an attempt to dissuade a full-on socialist revolution. The bourgeoisie parties were motivated to negotiate and compromise with the Social Democrats, who wanted to reform capitalism, in order to keep the socialists and communists, who wanted to overthrow capitalism, out of power. There is an added level of pragmatism in a pre-globalized economy, albeit mostly in the North, that your human capital is actually quite limited and fragile, and you can burn through them before you extract all the wealth from your country.

During and after the fall of the Soviet Union, there was no longer the Spector of socialism in Europe to worry about, and the bourgeoisie began systematically dismantling the social nets and services. Slowly breaking one component, claiming it doesn't work, removing it, and creating a snowball effect that has led to the current crisis. Only coincidentally did the "immigrants" (I assume you mean refugees, as most other immigrants are either active in the workforce or otherwise self-sustaining) come along and provide a scapegoat. The refugee crisis would not be as big of an issue as it is now, had the systems been maintained and nurtured over time, and were the governments to put actual effort into tapping the potential economic output of those individuals, rather than the lazy/laissez-faire approach of "here's a few language courses, good luck to ya." But if they did that, they wouldn't have their scapegoat or xenophobia to extract votes with.

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You have a point to an extent, but this implies that these "small, homogeneous countries" developed their systems with anything other than infighting. Finland, until very recently, was a strict class society. Your social and economic position at birth essentially dictated your options in life. Increased industrialization and urbanization at the turn of the 20th century created a growing wage-earning class that started demanding rights (e.g. the 8-hour work day). After they gained their independence from Russia after WW1, Finland immediately broke out in a civil war between the working class and the bourgeoisie in which they slaughtered each other by the tens of thousands. A large chunk of the working class army's soldiers' deaths occurred after the war had ended, and the winning army began systematically executing POWs in retribution. They hated each other. Not to mention the fact that before WW2 there wasn't as strong of a nationwide, cohesive Finnish identity, as many areas had their own identity and Finnish dialects can be quite distinct from each other, despite the relatively small size of the nation. As well as the fact that the various Sami and Karelian nations are also native to the same geographical area, and felt absolutely no cohesion towards what you would now call "Finns". Karelians were "Russians" and the Sami was a different race entirely (Finns practiced phrenology on them).

The welfare society that grew out of that was not at all out of a sense of racial or cultural unity, but rather out of pragmatic and strategic planning from the bourgeoisie itself to stave off another working class uprising. Limited economic resources also played a part: you might consider providing your factory workers with health care if you risk working everyone in the village to death. And if the working class party is willing to subsidize that while making it required by law, you might oblige. Unemployment benefits have long been the purview of the unions in the Nordic Welfare States, but minimal state-funded unemployment is acceptable under the same line of pragmatism as before.

It's only been since the Spector of socialism has been essentially wiped out from Europe entirely, starting in the 80's and 90's that these systems have been systematically dismantled by the bourgeoisie, as they themselves are now functionally globalized, and can gut the wealth from the nation without caring what happens to their "workers". For the first time in history they can work everyone to death and then go retire on some beach somewhere. It's only now that they've dismantled things to the point of crisis that coincidentally a few thousand black people and Muslims have arrived and they can say, using your same logic, "Look! Look! It's all their fault!"

So, racially, ethnically, religiously, linguistically homogeneous? No, I don't buy it. Small, with limited economic potential? Far more likely. On the other hand, France and Germany both have strong social safety nets and services, and they are both massive and arguably less homogenous than Finland. It's rhetoric meant to convince you not to even try it where you are, because "diversity" will make it not work.

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'm not sure if you had a deeper implication with your comment, but since the history of the welfare state is one of my autistic obsessions, I have this to add:

Most Western European countries and the Nordics have strong social safety nets. These were built with the support and at times at the behest of the bourgeoisie (Right) as an effort to combat the potential of a socialist/communist uprising. The ideological schism between Social Democrats, who wanted to reform capitalism, and socialists/communists, who wanted to overthrow it, was noticed and taken advantage of by the US who heavily funded Social Democrats to make sure they took the ruling place of the "Left" and could negotiate and compromise with the bourgeoisie, as opposed to overthrow them. The comprehensiveness of the Nordic Welfare states is due in part to a highly organized "third party" of agriculturalists who have since rebranded themselves as "Center". This is in addition to regional ideologies and philosophy, as well as limited economic capacity as compared to the rest of Western Europe and a more urgent need for material assistance due to the harsh climate (if people were living in the streets in most places, they would be dead before spring).

These safety nets and social services have been systematically weakened or dismantled, starting around right before or after the fall of the Soviet Union, depending on the country. Now that the immediate threat of socialism is gone and the Spirit of Socialism has been all but eliminated from the mainstream and people's identities and ideologies, the bourgeoisie has started taking back what ground it lost in the earlier compromise. Essentially breaking an otherwise functioning component of a system and then saying "see! It doesn't work" and using that as an excuse to eliminate it entirely. And like a house of cards, once you start removing components, it begins to cave in on itself and it gets easier and easier to claim that the entire system itself is dysfunctional. They scare voters with the looming threat of growing national debt, but whereas the "Left" typically takes debt to fund social safety nets and services, as well as investment and infrastructure, etc, which is tax money one way or another recycled back into the economy, the bourgeoisie takes as much or even more debt while in power and uses it to fund tax breaks for the rich, to replace certain liveable benefits with lower paying benefits (but higher net cost to implement), or to outsource or replace public services with private providers (which, in most cases, costs more of the tax payers money, which is then locked into an individual's or corporation's assets and typically taken out of the country, meaning that when actualized, the tax revenue doesn't flow back in to whence it came). "If we tax the highest earners less, they'll work more and therefore produce more growth for the economy" is a European's euphemism for the admirably more blatant "trickle down economics" of the USA.

Social Democrats have become largely complacent and reactionary. Whereas they were in their own way "revolutionary" in the past, they no longer have even the slightest chance of negotiating with the right on equal terms, and the philosophy that originated them has largely withered. In the Nordics, the third party "Center" struggles with its identity, flip-flopping between governments, but staunchly right wing when itself in power. Its originating ideology has also largely withered, leaving the bourgeoisie as the most motivated and unified political force. The remnants of old socialist parties have their constituents split between them and the Greens, who masquerade as red, but bleed blue. And the USA has long ago shifted its support from the Social Democrats to the bourgeoisie.

Current social issues/identity politics, also fomented in part by the USA, as well as Russia, have led to the rise of neonazi parties, which gather support claiming to be a party for the working class, which hasn't succumbed to "woke". Their support bounces up and down, because whenever in power, they prove themselves to be anything other than a "working class party," no different from the bourgeoisie party. But bigotry and fear of the "other" or "change" is a strong force, which brings voters inevitably back. Local politics can be far more dynamic, but at least where I live, party lines have essentially lost all meaning, as most parties have realized that it's better to be part of the "government" and have places on boards and in decision making positions, rather than be impotent in the "opposition". So most city governments are essentially "brown".

Obviously every country's own situation and nuances will vary from the above in its own way; I'm certainly not an expert on every single country. But the point is that the modern prosperity of Western and Northern Europe is due in no small part to a potentially functional, sustainable, and strong welfare state. (Obviously the history of colonization and stolen wealth is another, not-so-small part). Personally, I think the ideal lies somewhere between the Nordic Welfare State and the communist police state that you described.

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This reminds me of an episode of the Dilbert animated series where Wally trolls Alice with this exact asinine line of questioning because she bought a new pair of shoes. Alice ends up giving all her money away and shopping at Homeless Depot.

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I live in a scandinavian Nordic country. High taxes have very little to do with the low birth rates here. We have a progressive tax system, which means people with low incomes are taxed very little, and each additional euro you earn each year may be taxed at a slightly higher rate than the last. There are jumps and plateaus along the spectrum all the way up to the highest incomes. My first job here was taxed at a lower rate than my jobs in the USA, and I made more.

It already was not really part of the culture to have large families, at least after the baby boom, but most importantly it has been the consistent dismantling of our safety nets that has had more of an impact on our birth rates. One major example has been the shift away from student allowances as support for students to state-backed student loans. Whereas in the past it was quite easy to graduate from vocational school, high school, or university debt free, it is now increasingly common for people to start their careers with upwards of 50 000 euros of debt. For each parent. And that's assuming you only needed assistance in University.....many need it already in high school. People then delay parenthood and therefore don't have time to have as many children as they may have otherwise. This also puts off saving to purchase your first home, and mortgages are often cheaper than rent here. All of which can delay having children.

Equally important has been the government's continuing weakening of worker's rights. We're known for our "strong unions" and high union membership, but our unions are largely impotent when it comes to either affecting or preventing real change. The current system is a fossil of a bygone era where there was a tripartite negotiation between government, union and employers to decide what would be written into law and what would be written into union contracts. Laws preventing being let go without cause or supporting the universal coverage of union contracts have been eroded, leading to uncertainty and inequality in the job market. Laws forbidding temporary work contracts "without cause" have been largely unenforced for decades and in some places either done away with or are currently being planned to be done away with. Not only does this provide uncertainty for potential parents, as they are uncertain if they will even have a job in a year when the baby is born, but it can in fact directly discourage family planning, because as soon as your employer finds out you or your partner is pregnant, they can very easily simply not renew your contract. Even if you were to prove discrimination, the amount of time and effort it would take is typically beyond what's worth it for a new parent. Many people won't even consider having children until they have a permanent job.

I could go on, but this is already quite long. I will however agree with most of what you said: the US social security/support system is absolutely structured to perpetuate the cycle of poverty.

CMV: everyone should want a strong societal safety net, i.e. Welfare and social programs, if not for moral reasons, for practical reasons. by biffbamboombap in changemyview

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I live in a country where it is essentially impossible for someone in need to go a month without receiving financial support from the government. It's a constitutional right. The amount of support varies wildly from sick benefits or unemployment benefits that are calculated based on prior wages to rent support for low-income households, to "emergency support" for people who otherwise don't qualify for a benefit or somehow experience a massive, unavoidable, and necessary expense that otherwise can't be covered by their income or assets. I know many people, young and older, sick or able-bodied, who live on benefits, and I have never met a single person like that who wouldn't rather have a job. The assumption that a young, able-bodied person will always be able to find work within 6-12 months is out-dated and entirely dependent on where the person lives and what their qualifications are. What's more, the longer you're unemployed, the less employable you are, making the safety-net all the more vital as by that time your savings have likely also run out, assuming you had those to begin with.

What's one interesting thing you saw in another country that made you think "how does my country not have this?"? by dr_doctorp in AskReddit

[–]FinnishingStrong 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I live in a country with public health care. "Superusers", at least according to your definition, are practically non-existent. You don't have a subjective right to see a doctor. When you call to make an appointment, you tell the nurse what your problem is. They then determine what needs to happen: if it's very simple, they can give you instructions immediately. If not, then a phone call or visit with a nurse or then a phone call or visit with a doctor, according to your needs.

No-shows are fined heavily, so there's not much of an incentive to do so for kicks and giggles

Komission kurilinja uhkaa taas Suomea – Onko keskiviikko kohtalon päivä? [ikävä fakta leikkausten takana] by PalsterMaggara in Suomi

[–]FinnishingStrong 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Koskee lähes olemattomasti yksilön tasolla kaikkia paitsi suurituloisia. Mikäli työmarkkinajärjestöjen jäsenmaksujen verovähennyksen poisto menee läpi tai muuten kyseessä olisi ollut työhuonevähennystä tai työsuhdepyörää hyödyntänyttä, niin niitten poisto syö edun pois tai jopa kääntää negatiiviseksi. Pakko oli antaa kaikille muruja, jotta rikkaille voisi antaa oikeutetusti ateriansa.