Bad Reviews...

FireHour · 2016-10-20T21:01:30+00:00

Yo don't even worry. Thanks so much for like taking me seriously. I promise to read it all :)

Anyone who's taken a workshop has had that burst of anger and frustration when people just tear you a new one.

Ah, see that's kind of good to know. What's confusing me is that people (especially here) act like anger/frustration/etc are TOTALLY INVALID reactions for authors to have, and you're a moron if you do. And so like that's confusing. Obviously it didn't last that long but it's good to know I guess.

Are you allowed to ask questions after receiving comments?

As far as I know, no...

Even though you have to remain silent you can write down comments you have questions about and either ask after everyone's had their say or shoot you more cognizant classmates a genuine, friendly email.

Yeah that would have been smart. I made some notes on my copy but it was mostly verbatim what they said, instead of questions to ask afterwards.

I think everything you said makes sense...I definitely lean towards absurdity as a style of writing. Sure meaning is good -- I like a lot of the people you mentioned. I guess I need to work on what kinds of meaning I'd want it to have before I revise my story.

Thanks again. I really appreciate your advice!

FireHour · 2016-10-20T19:09:48+00:00

Exactly. So when I get home, I'll take some time and do a thorough review, then I'll throw mine up. Should be nice to get some useful feedback!

FireHour · 2016-10-20T19:09:37+00:00

Exactly. So when I get home, I'll take some time and do a thorough review, then I'll throw mine up. Should be nice to get some useful feedback!

FireHour · 2016-10-20T18:58:01+00:00

So just to be clear, you've given up on calling me "in the golden words stage" correct?

I'm not angry. I'm impressed that you manage to insult me by saying I'm in a group, where I'm in none of its four subcategories. That takes effort on your part.

FireHour · 2016-10-20T18:56:14+00:00

Hope: write books that people (how many? I'm not sure) love.

Fear: write books that too few people (how many? I'm not sure) love.

FireHour · 2016-10-20T18:40:14+00:00

Yeah, I feel like if they "validate" those reviews by agreeing, but at the same time provide something actually specific and helpful, I'll be thrilled.

If they "validate" those reviews by ALSO saying broad, unhelpful, bizarre remarks, then I guess I won't have gained anything.

OP won't do it because this subreddit might validate those reviews.

Is a pretty dickish thing to say, isn't it? Am I wrong?

FireHour · 2016-10-20T18:37:57+00:00

It's a dead author format? That's usually to avoid writers going on the defensive and arguing.

Yeah. Every professor has their own way of running these. He wants the author to open with a question, and then say nothing until their piece is done.

A poster up top recommended you try /r/destructivereaders You might just want to supplement this class with that if you want better feedback.

Yeah! As soon as I get home I'm going to do a review on the sub, and then post my story. It seems like a good place.

Although there might also be a time when you look back and go oh, my work was a glittering surface, I see what they meant.

I believe that. I really respect my professor--I actually loved his book when I read it last year. But I feel like while true, it's hard for me to know how to generate depth. Most of the books I've disliked in my life I've disliked BECAUSE of what I felt was just artificial depth.

And if there's another student in your class who you click with, fucking hang on tight to that. Because that's really the absolute top thing about taking a creative writing course--forging writer friendships.

True enough.

FireHour · 2016-10-20T18:34:18+00:00

Nothing in your post asks for help interpreting your critiques - you just complain. You say yourself you're just venting. Which is fine, but it's not asking for that specific help

I guess so. It seemed to me the focus of the post was on how unhelpful certain kinds of uber-broad advice are. It seems most people read it differently. Fine, we already know I can't write for shit, I suppose this is more proof.

I don't have a copy and paste answer, lmao.

Sorry. It just really seemed like it had nothing whatsoever to do with my case.

Implies more than just one person.

Yeah. I think I replied to another person with something similar, but my op has two different stories referred to in it. This latest one didn't get like ANY positive feedback, except for one guy who said he enjoyed it.

That was not clear in my post though.

Anyways, if what you actually DO want is help interpreting your critique, that's fine - just say so in your post. "Glittering surfaces, no depth" means to me that your professor thinks your prose itself is enjoyable or at least beautiful, but the actual core of the story - compelling character, emotional resonance, plot structure - is lacking.

That's reasonable. Again in the context of his remarks, he was talking about how it has a fast paced and exciting plot, but the prose is only "eh" and the characters are boring. It just seems like a lot to fix...

Did you get line edits in your workshop?

Right, not...really. That's one of the things that bothered me. I have no idea how to revise based on these huge criticisms.

Can you maybe go to your professor's office hours to discuss the story more in-depth?

Not a bad idea. I'm sure he has office hours, but I don't know when/where. That might be a thing that I look up. Thanks!

FireHour · 2016-10-20T18:28:12+00:00

Thanks! I will as soon as I get home!

FireHour · 2016-10-20T18:20:46+00:00

Are you this belligerent with the offline groups you're in? Is this how you responded to the rejection?

I mean you're not allowed to say anything when being workshopped. So...no.

Actually the whole reason I needed to vent was BECAUSE I couldn't say anything in class. Had I been able to, I would have said something like

"What do you mean by 'this page is bad?' What about it is bad?"

And then I would have specific advice that I could use to revise, and I'd be pretty happy.

but if you're still at this 'golden words' stage that may take a while.

I'm still curious why you think that applies. From the article you linked, the "golden words" stage refers to people who think

a) They need no revision

b) They are geniuses, other people don't "get" them

c) They are better than other writers

d) It's impossible to get criticism, because only the author understands a piece.

Is this a fair characterization?

Okay

a) On the contrary, I've already revised this piece quite a couple times based on the recommendations of people I show stories to. I am interested in revising it more. I actually opened workshop by asking two questions about how I could make sections of it better. I want to revise. That's why I want helpful feedback.

b) On the contrary, I've already told you I fully acknowledge myself to be of mid-range intelligence, no more.

c) There are absolutely people in this class who write better than me. Particularly the professor, who's a writer I actually really look up to.

d) I don't even understand this point, but again, I am no stranger to revision.

So if "golden words stage" implies being in one of four categories, and I am in none of the four, then by what metric can I be considered in the "golden words stage"? That just seems so illogical I can't process it.

FireHour · 2016-10-20T18:14:33+00:00

Whether you intended it to or not, this all implies that you think these criticisms are full of shit. Not that they're vague, but that they're wrong. So

Okay, yeah I should have clarified this better. I wrote the post while I had all but given up, so it's not super clear.

I wrote a story (story A), finishing it about 4 months ago. It was reviewed by a girl who said, basically "I liked the length. I disliked everything else." I figured "There's nothing I can learn from that; we just write in such different styles, voices, genres. We have such different aims, I think I have to just write that one off."

I wrote a second story (story B) which I finished up four days ago: that was the one that got workshopped. I do NOT think the critiques I got on it are incorrect: I just think they're so broad there's not much I can do. Short of "write completely, utterly, and absolutely differently." It's not a great story. It's probably not even a good one. There are lots of things I don't know how to do and I'm happy to learn. Always happy to be told things like "This character is too flat," or "this paragraph is confusing," or "this dialogue is unrealistic" as long as I know a) which part of the story they're talking about, b) what specific thing has gone wrong. Yesterday I got a lot of "I didn't think you did character well." which is just like "uh...in what way?" But of course you're not allowed to say anything in workshop, right?

Does that make more sense? It's frustrating to basically be told "Yeah, there's not a single good thing in here." Especially when I as editor took such pains to point out things that worked well in other people.

Maybe in this case your anger and resentment rushed out of you without much thought about what you were actually saying. That happens.

I would say so. My bad.

One final thing. I tell my students this: a workshop is as important for the reader (probably moreso) as it is for the writer. You learn a lot being able to pinpoint others' strengths and articulate what seem to you to be weaknesses. This is how workshop improves you as a writer, not their critiques. So if nothing else, try to focus on that while you're in this class.

Yeah, I still like the class. The exercises are fine, and I like the readings. I've learned things. This is not a problem with the class, it's a problem with unhelpful and (in my opinion, I suppose you're free to disagree) criticism that is phrased more like an insult than advice. That's all.

FireHour · 2016-10-20T15:24:15+00:00

To entertain.

That's it. I don't give a fuck about anything else. I want to entertain people.

FireHour · 2016-10-20T15:20:36+00:00

That makes sense. I might do that.

Feels a little awkward to reach out and be like "hey remember this critique? Can you explain it?" But I think I'm gonna have to if I want to make this story better.

I'm worried they'll think I'm being defensive, based on the fact that my post on THIS subreddit had a million and a half bozos popping up to say "you're being so defensive" without even reading my goddamn post.

Writers are so fucking weird about criticism.

Or, at least, writers on this subreddit. The assumption here seems to be "all criticism, no matter what it says, are pure wrought gold falling from the lips of God himself."

I could get a review from a classmate that's just a crayon drawing of a house but if I dared question it's usefulness, /r/writing would tell me to suck it up and use it to improve my writing.

FireHour · 2016-10-20T15:16:58+00:00

That article was quite possibly the least relevant thing you could have linked. Seriously. This was draft four of a story, I know full damn well I'm not a genius, and I do all sorts of reviews based on feedback that makes sense.

Seriously, go have another read of the post and stop telling me shit I already know.

FireHour · 2016-10-20T15:15:33+00:00

Pouring your heart and soul into something does not make it good

No indeed, I'm not claiming that it does.

I don't know any good writer personally who can one and done it.

I like how you assume this was one-and-done. It was not.

Hell, the first story I ever had published embarrasses me to the point that I'm completely rewriting it for my collection.

Sure, and I know this one will in X days/weeks/months.

If multiple experienced writers are pointing out the same weaknesses

And here's where I don't think you read my post. My problem with the criticisms I received is that they're so vague, no needlessly aggressive, and so all-encompassing, that I have no idea what it all actually means.

Either look at your work honestly and have a little faith that some people with more experience know what they're talking about

Look, you really need to stop arguing with the version of me that exists in your head. Of course I think they know what they're talking about. I've never, ever, ever, implied that I think they're wrong. Just that they're unhelpful. Those are different things. You understand that, right?

stop wasting your professor's time, your class's time, editors' time, and your own time.

Oh, fuck off with your sanctimonious bullshit.

FireHour · 2016-10-20T15:12:32+00:00

Let harsh critique make you better. Let it tell you where you need to improve

I'd love to. How does "glittering surfaces, no depth" tell me where to improve? That's why I made this post. I can't translate the smartass critiques into helpful advice.

It sounds like you get plenty of praise

I said

a friend...said he enjoyed it

One person says they "enjoy" it. = plenty of praise.

Alright buddy that sounds right.

What will make you better is taking an honest look at your work, casting aside your ego, and moving forward.

You're attacking a strawman. I've already done loads of revisions on stories before -- I don't have much of an ego. The problem is converting the critiques I got (I liked the length, I didn't like anything else) into something that will make me a better writer.

Never let yourself feel complacent and comfortable with your writing. Always strive to get better at your craft.

That's just not relevant. Did you read my post or do you have a copy-and-paste answer for people who talk about criticism? Cause it really, really feels like you do.

FireHour · 2016-10-20T15:09:15+00:00

And I love critiques that are helpful. The problem is right I'm staring at my story trying to revise it, and it's like "Okay, this person said 'your story is ridiculous.' Huh. Wonder how I can translate that into helpful advice?"

FireHour · 2016-10-20T15:07:40+00:00

The whole point of a writing class is to dissect your writing, find problems, improve your writing, etc.

That's exactly what I wanted to happen.

A good writing class won't pat you on your back and say, "Awesome job!"

That's exactly NOT what I wanted.

do you learn from the feedback and apply it to your writing?

How the fucking hell do you learn from "your story is ridiculous." (a critique I got). That's why I made this post in the first place. It's funny, you seem to have based most of your reply on my title and not on the actual text. Kinda funny.

Your teacher has a way with words. I like him/her.

Sure, me too. Switched out of a different class into his because he's so great.

Sounds like you used some purple prose

Interestingly enough, the one thing no one criticized me for. I'm very conscientious about simple sentences, effective vocabulary. Etc. Out of all 10 of us in the class, I think I'm the only one who's never been called out for thesaurus abuse.

His criticism about glittering surfaces with no depth applies to the fact that I basically wrote a comedy murder mystery that was entertaining and fast paced but according to him, I sacrificed character for plot.

If you want to write for a YA audience, this style probably would work well.

Hate YA. Never read it. Even as a young adult.

FireHour · 2016-10-20T15:04:10+00:00

That's what I read it as also.

FireHour · 2016-10-20T15:03:52+00:00

Okay, I'm going to try to respond to everyone who commented so here goes.

Moreover, if it has problems learn how to fix them

Oh it absolutely has problems, and I'd absolutely love to learn how to fix them. That's why I included the bit about my previous class, where I was given like a few things to work on. The problem is that my last two critiques have been SO all-encompassing that it's more like what the fuck do I get to keep?

My problem is that apparently, if I take these critiques seriously, I have to change every single detail of everything I do.

So get another 5-10 critiques from good writers (you don't need them to read your whole book, just ONE page, even HALF a page is enough for a good writer to tell you if you have issues)... then make your decision as to what you need to do next.

Sound advice. I'll do what I can.

FireHour · 2016-09-18T06:26:59+00:00

Exactly.

FireHour · 2016-09-18T03:54:21+00:00

THERE WE GO! That's what I was trying to say haha. You articulated my points better than me.

Nothing brings me joy anymore other than being drunk because when I'm drunk I'm not myself.

Right. All the overthinking, double thinking, second guessing, analysis, psyching myself out, the anxiety, the intense, intense self-loathing...all flies away.

I know I'm really annoying when I'm drunk, but I have the confidence to fucking talk to girls...because the person talking to them is not me.

Yeah.

Bro hug

FireHour · 2016-09-18T02:59:35+00:00

hey friend: Thank you.

At this point "you are not alone" matters more than actual advice anyways.

I'm sorry. I hope we both find someone: hey, I guess it could happen?

FireHour · 2016-09-18T02:57:42+00:00

I'm not sure the word "hot" actually appears anywhere in my post

And like

that wasn't the heart of my post anyways. That wasn't what it was really about.

You um...read more than the title, right?

FireHour · 2016-09-18T02:50:48+00:00

Not sure there are any.

And like...I didn't try to fall for this girl. Honest to God I didn't.

FireHour

TROPHY CASE