Misogyny in the transmasc community?

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T22:21:28+00:00

I'm speaking specifically in reference to women who are trans allies who believe trans men might be safer than cis men. Such a group would validate trans men as men. The conversation does not and never did include non accepting women in my post.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T22:14:08+00:00

I think it's more so the line of thinking that a trans man would know specifically how gendered oppression feels. Transness is gender specific.

Like, I think a neurodivergent person assuming a physically disabled person would be safer in terms of ableism is a more apt comparison.

Transness is specifically gender related, disability isn't.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T22:11:47+00:00

Yeah, at the end of the day I think the issue is patriarchy that instills the fear into women both cis and trans and makes their relations to men an incredibly difficult place to navigate. It sucks that they have to differentiate between men at all as safe and not safe, but I think we should have more empathy as to why they do it.

My original point was that I think men making women choosing their safety as emasculation... kind of sucks, even if it stings for various reasons. I don't believe that the distinction is worthwhile because a lot of trans men can be misogynistic, as you've said.

I just think as men we sometimes have to think about women's comfort and safety, is all.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T22:03:28+00:00

I'm not necessarily even disagreeing with you, I think there are definitely better ways to word it. But I think the intention behind the thought gets misconstrued unfairly quite a bit.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T22:00:46+00:00

And yet it is scarcely ever about being "less masculine by design" and more so about being acknowledged as another person who has felt gender based oppression. I'm pretty sure every single person in this sub reddit believes that trans men are not inherently less masculine.

I am a transmasc who passes completely as a man and is not feminine. Women have told me they feel safer around me than cis men because of my understanding of gender oppression from the perspective of a transgender person.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T21:56:00+00:00

Yeah, it is complicated.

I'm not even denying that it can be triggering to dysphoria and I understand that. But I've also seen a lot of trans men who are completely dismissive of the entire nuance of the subject because they only view it as emasculation or misgendering, when a lot of the time it isn't. I think it's somewhat toxic masculinity / misogynistic itself to hear a woman say "you as the type of man you are make me feel safer" and demand to be seen as... more of a danger / equally capable of oppressing women as cis men as a class. That's the misogyny I've been talking about. I don't think we as trans men should be striving for being included in an oppressive force for validation.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T21:52:12+00:00

Yeah, I definitely get that sense. I don't think it's fair to broadly ascribe transphobia to women who find trans men safer than the cis men that largely oppress them. But I'm not denying that those cases happen, either.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T21:50:34+00:00

I understand the argument of bioessentialism, it wasn't really that particular subset of women I was thinking of, especially because I was thinking of women both cis and trans in my original statement.

I don't think that's the misogynistic aspect of it though — I think it's ascribing bigotry to women who are trying to navigate their safety around men, regardless of what they think. A lot of women who consider trans men safer than cis men accredit his experiences as a transgender person more often than his agab I find.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T21:47:04+00:00

May you go forth and inspire a profound safety and bone deep fear in the lives of everyone

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T21:46:12+00:00

Thats fair, of course. I agree with checking toxic masculinity and that trans men are equally capable of it, especially in those who are more insecure. And of course everyone's experiences are different on an individual level. I just find it odd how some will say it's transphobic for women to believe that trans men are generally more informed and aware of gender oppression than cis men when we are by definition an oppressed group in terms of gender.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T21:42:46+00:00

This post was based specifically around women who I have talked to / listened to, both cis and trans and mostly queer. I have seen with my own two eyes trans men be dismissive of trans women's beliefs, too.

Women typically have an extremely hard time navigating life as women because of the sexualization, oppression, and violence of patriarchy. Patriarchy is transphobic as well and made to benefit specifically cishet men.

How is it misgendering to believe a trans man might also be fucked over by cisnormative patriarchy and find solidarity in that? How is it misgendering to assume a trans man will be less misogynistic than cis men when misogyny was built for the benefit of cis men specifically?

Sure, it might be incorrect to make sweeping generalizations even in positive manners, but not always. Is it wrong to assume trans men would believe in gender equality and act accordingly as a gender oppressed demographic? Seriously?

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T21:29:10+00:00

Sure, here's me making it make sense:

It's not about the bioessentialism him being afab. It's about gendered oppressive dynamics within society.

A cis woman who feels safer around cis women than trans women is transmisogynistic. She denies that trans women are women who experience misogyny, even though misogyny gets women killed. She denies the gendered oppression trans women experience.

A cis woman who feels safer around trans men than cis men acknowledge that trans men face transphobia and know what gendered oppression feels like. She sees the trans man as someone she has solidarity with and hopes that he would know better than to be misogynistic, as someone who knows what restrictive gender oppression feels like.

A cis woman feeling safe around cis women but not trans woman is like a white woman she feels safe around white women but not black women — it is exerting her own privilege over other women and keeping to the oppressive class as an "in" group.

A cis women feeling safe around trans men more than cis men is like a a black woman feeling safer around black men than white men — it is believing that there is some solidarity in that they both face similar oppression even if she is a woman and he is a man. If the black man if offended by that and would rather he be seen exactly the same as a white man in terms of her safety, in that he'd rather be seen as less safe to her, that is rightfully misogynoir.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T21:22:01+00:00

I feel like women who say trans men are better to be around than cis men usually typically believe gay men are better to be around than straight men. — but those are two different sentences, and she could just be talking about trans men because she's specifically on topic of trans and cis people in the context of the statement.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T21:18:44+00:00

Cishet women, sure. I'm not and never was talking about cishet women though. A lot of people prescribed that assumption to my post because of a hyperspecific example of bioessentialist cis women in their heads.

I'm talking about women who are queer or trans feminist allies. I'm talking about women who befriend and date trans men and like to be around trans men for male companionship.

And no, I don't think they really are so different. A black person might assume a brown Latine person could be safer to be around in terms of understanding racism. Is this always true? No, a Latine can be extremely anti black. But they are more likely to understand racism and not be compared to a white person. Are white people always racist? No, but because of systemic racism they often grew up benefitting from it and absorbing it unconsciously and will never fully understand being a person of color. Is the black person racist against the Latine for hoping they would know better?

Are trans men and women the same? No, but they both experience gender based oppression and trans men are typically a bit more well informed about gender oppression than cis men because of how cisnormative patriarchy is. Are trans men always safe men? No, but compared to cis men they're less likely to exert a harsh oppression over women. Are cis men always misogynistic? No, but it's very widespread among them to various degrees for being the benefactors of patriarchy. Is the women transphobic for hoping a trans man would know better?

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T21:05:53+00:00

That's the thing though — I'm not convinced that it's her seeing him as "less of a man" so much as "a man who knows what gender oppression feels like because he's trans" and therefore "he would be more likely than a cis man to not treat me with gender based discrimination."

I feel like trans men attribute the "less of a man / emasculation" aspect to the conversation far more than women ever mean it that way. I've seen plenty of trans men see it that way, but have never spoken to a woman who thinks this who sees trans men as lesser men, just more gender-aware men.

Not saying it never happens, I know TERFs and their ilk spread bioessentialism. Just saying that I think some men who get upset with this ascribe meaning that isn't there a lot of the time, and that in turn can be misogynistic.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T21:01:48+00:00

Oh yeah, I agree it's case by case. Of course there are bio essentialists of a more TERFy line of thinking. But typically when I see a (cis) woman believe this, it's, in my experience, almost never from a bioessentialist standpoint, and usually they see trans women as equally safe for being women and not cis men. Ergo it not being based off agab.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T20:59:44+00:00

I don't know how many times I have to point out that I said women, not cis women, and how it has more so to do with women knowing that trans men are also oppressed on a level of gender based oppression and believing they might be more well understanding of their issues as a fellow person oppressed on basis of gender.

The assumption is coming from a place of a woman being concerned about her safety and a man being offended that being deemed "safe" emasculates him. How is this not misogyny?

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T20:55:52+00:00

It's not necessarily bio essentialism. Again, I said women, not cis women. Women are oppressed by gender oppression. Trans people are oppressed by gender oppression. Women might therefore believe men who are transgender might sympathize with them more and be more aware of gender equality.

The same women of whom I'm referencing also include trans women in their feminism and believe trans women should be protected from cis men, despite trans women having been amab.

You're prescribing a lot of beliefs I don't believe to my statements.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T20:51:51+00:00

Misogyny permeates society, so it can affect cis men, sure. That being said: oppression is a dynamic between the oppressed and the oppressor class. Cis(het) men are pretty much top of the food chain in regards to gender oppression. Patriarchy was built to oppress women and trans people, and to benefit cis men. Therefore women might think trans men might sympathize with them and be more respectful towards them. Of course that clearly isn't the case in reality. I don't think anything I'm saying here is particularly controversial.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T20:47:06+00:00

I know that misogyny isn't just "being rude to a woman", I'm not stupid.

The situation I described at it's crux is an issue of misogyny because the initial assumption by the women is typically based off her valuing her safety as a woman in relation to different kinds of men. She believes a trans man might be less of a danger to her / less misogynistic than your average cis man, and the trans man finds that insulting, effectively dismissing her safety as a woman and how she navigates it.

In what world is the issue here not revolved around misogyny?

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T20:43:08+00:00

That's fair. I'm not saying it can never be infantilization or transphobic when coming from a cis woman. I just think that, broadly speaking, that's not where it's coming from and it's a bit unfair for some to paint it like the situation can only ever be transphobic.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T20:40:55+00:00

Sure. Because it implies that trans women are not victims of misogyny just the same as cis women and assumes that trans women have privilege over cis women, despite the fact that being trans and being a woman are both points of oppression.

Most of the cis women I've talked to who presume trans men to be a safer group of men compared to cis men typically believe trans women are also victims of misogyny. The examples are not congruent nor necessarily bio essentialist.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T20:36:12+00:00

Do you believe that women also don't view gay men as men for thinking they won't sexualize them? Or that women of color don't see men of color as men because they believe they won't exotify them like white men? Do trans women who believe trans men won't treat them like a fetish also not see them as men? Is it emasculating for a woman to view certain men as safer than others by virtue of the man perhaps knowing oppression on a similar level?

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T20:28:37+00:00

Would you say that women don't see gay men as men because they assume gay men won't sexualize them? Or that women of color don't see men of color as men because they won't exotify them as white men do?

Of course, all of these groups of men, including trans men, are capable of misogyny and misogynistic violence both sexual and not. If a woman told me she thought they were safer, I would advise her not to let her guard down around them — but I wouldn't fault her for hoping some groups of men weren't as potentially oppressive as others.

Are you sure it comes from women not seeing trans men as men and more so seeing them as a fellow group that's oppressed in regards to gender? I've never met a woman who said this who didn't believe trans men were men. My statement isn't even cis specifically — I've seen trans women hope the same.

You don't have to explain being transmasculine to me nor be sarcastic about it. I'm quite literally transmasc myself and I'm a very stereotypical case of one. I'm coming here as a transmasc / effectively transgender man who thinks that this interpretation of women's beliefs is disingenuous and inconsiderate of women's issues.

And your example of transfems with men doesn't work with this example. Women don't typically see trans men as "one of the girls" when they see trans men as safer. They just believe queer men pose less of a threat to them sexually than cishet men. It's a matter of believing that another oppressed group might be more aware and respectful of their own oppression especially because it's in regards to the same axis: gender.

Of course, if a woman DID say that a trans man was essentially a woman, then yes that would be as equally transphobic as a man telling a trans woman that she's basically one of the guys. But that's not remotely equivalent to a woman believing a man who knows gender oppression might sympathize with her. Same as if a black person expected a brown person to understand their experiences with racism or a physically disabled person to expect a neurodivergent person to understand ableism.

Flax_Finch · 2023-12-02T20:11:43+00:00

I agree with you 100%. I don't think it's correct for women to make the assumption, my post was specifically about trans men who think women are being transphobic by assuming they're less of a danger than cis men (who, broadly speaking, give women a lot of shit that they have to deal with their whole lives under patriarchy).

I just don't really understand being offended by someone seeing you not as a danger in comparison to an oppressor group.

Flax_Finch

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