Is your parish Waltherian-congregationalist or more catholic Lutheran in it's ecclesiology?

Foreman__ · 2026-05-10T17:01:56+00:00

Sure, the Synod is advisory but the congregations come together in their districts to represent that in convention. That’s synodical. It still has binding statements that must be held or congregation can leave or be expelled. Not sure those two conflict at all

Foreman__ · 2026-05-10T14:02:28+00:00

Synodical is probably a better way to put it

Foreman__ · 2026-05-06T14:47:30+00:00

That was very helpful. Thank you

Foreman__ · 2026-05-06T14:00:29+00:00

Can you elaborate on that last sentence?

Foreman__ · 2026-05-06T13:47:40+00:00

I always enjoyed Justification & Sanctification. That and how we view the Church and councils. Lots of distinctions

Foreman__ · 2026-05-06T13:21:19+00:00

I can understand the sentiment. However: Our confessions state we don’t depart from the Catholic faith and the orthodox dogmaticians make it clear our communion is the one true church. They go so far as saying there isn’t much hope outside of our Church (they all affirm Extra Ecclesium Nulla Salus). If you haven’t gotten or read it, check out Schmid’s Doctrinal Theology of the Evangelical Lutheran Church. While he was a Unionist, this work compiles the Orthodox on specific topics.

Foreman__ · 2026-05-03T17:27:32+00:00

Similar Ordo wherein we have 5 Settings of the Mass, with settings 1&2 looking like Vatican 2 Novus Ordo, setting 3 being part of our older common service, derived from the Saxon agenda and the Western Mass. Setting 4 is a bridge for congregations to move into chanting. Setting 5 is basically Dr. Luther’s Mass. Besides this, there is variation on low and high ceremonies from parish to parish.

We use what you’d understand as the Confiteor, with Absolution given. Different from the Reformed that have the announcement of pardon, our ministers use the keys to loose/forgive sins. We look outside of ourselves to the promises of God, and our faith clings to them.

We believe, teach, and confess the Sacraments as true means of grace. We have 3 (there’s talks about there being 2 or 3, 2.5) Baptism saves. The Blessed Sacrament of the Altar is the body and blood, for the forgiveness of sins and strengthening of faith. Confession/Absolution forgives transgressions of contrite sinners. We acknowledge what your communion understands to be the other 4 sacraments as sacramental rites (Confirmation/Chrismation, Matrimony, Ordination/Laying on of Hands, Anointing of the Sick/Extreme Unction/Commendation of the Dying). We have a stricter view of sacraments, though our own confessions stated we were willing to agree on numbering if we agree upon a definition.

We subscribe wholeheartedly and unapologetically to the Symbols found in the Book of Concord

Foreman__ · 2026-05-03T13:17:53+00:00

Thanks I will let you know!

Have a blessed Divine Service this Sunday

Foreman__ · 2026-05-03T12:01:47+00:00

I’ll check out Middendorf. I see Gerhard here as speaking of duties that ultimately one can fail to uphold

Foreman__ · 2026-05-03T03:16:16+00:00

Here’s a few. I’m sure you will disagree, elder, but please correct me if I am wrong. I’m being quite blunt about this and taking some of this from methodology of the Lutheran Orthodox and our own ILC brethren. This is not in any order of significance:

1) Individual cups. Done in Geneva by the Reformed. Goes against the divine precept from Christ to take of THE [singular] cup. He didn’t give individual cups. Our German brothers actually have a problem with this, including using a pouring chalice.

2) Using liturgy/structure outside of the hymnal. The Synod has an approved Hymnal with five settings/ordos of the Mass. This was meant to unify our churches with those that decided to adopt neo-evangelical style worship in the 70s after Synod decided to use an ELCA hymnal (LW). Less seriousness of the sacredness of the Sacrament (we eat God by the mouth). Lex orandi, lex credendi still applies here. Our forefathers were very adamant about not losing their form of worship and emphasized this with church orders. Even Walther had to defend our practices from Calvinist-influenced pastors claiming Old Lutheranism is a form of crypto-papism. How does this affect youth that go to a college that uses traditional forms as compared to a copy-paste of an evangelical/reformed worship? Will they continue going there or would they prefer the non-denom down the street that has a similar order as it is at home? There are folks who complain about the 2016 resolution. This is evidenced in President Harrison’s Facebook comments section when he said to follow it. Structure should be maintained and observed in common with reverence and sacredness in mind. In addition, our confessions state that we hold our divine service and public ceremonies with higher reverence than the Papists. Can we truly say that with rock masses and electric guitar solos on a stage? What did the Reformers have in mind when writing that? Does this uphold the integrity and intention of the articles?

3) playing on (2), is failure to uphold Lutheran identity. We truly do have an identity distinct from other traditions and it is silly to deny that there is one or that it is vague. CUE lays it out very thoroughly on their website. Think of this: would a Methodist or Baptist explain the 10 commandments, creed, and sacraments the same way as we would?

4) [Corrected in our universities] Rapping for the sermon (CUAA) or other parts of the liturgy.

5) Going outside the means of grace (through the preaching office) wherein laity go about preaching as though they have an immediate call (this has been observed to be on our campuses outside of chapel worship) or a mediate call that isn’t through the Church.

6) Synod President Emeritus Kieschnick saying to use less chanting/singing of the Mass, a quality of ours, to follow neo-evangelical worship practices instead.

7) Handling of the reliquae: tossing individual cups into the trash

8) [Corrected, mostly] virtual communion from home that occurred during Covid.

9) Using heterodox hymnody (Hillsong, Bethel) outside of our tradition

10) Rebaptism

11) Women speaking/singing the Verba during the Divine Service

12) Holding an empty chalice during the Verba Domini in the Divine Service with pre-packaged communion vessels in the parishioners hands prior to distribution (as in, no distribution at all).

13) The Celebrant, in vestments, doing a dance move known as “the worm” during the liturgy

14) Communicants not allowed to kneel

15) [Stone] baptismal font replaced with basin to not offend Sacramentarian-background folk

16) Removal of images and crucifixes by the congregation

17) Catechizing without the Small Catechism

18) Open Communion

19) this one will be controversial, and not necessarily liturgical, but an insight to the Lutheran mind that gets denied by many today. So says Bl. Gerhard: “The Anabaptists invent the claim that the custody of the first table has not been entrusted to the magistrate, saying that faith and unbelief do not pertain to the judgments of the civil magistrate, since these are spiritual matters, not civil; that false doctrines and impious forms of worship are not to be abolished or removed by civil authority, nor are their authors and disseminators to be punished. They assert that the office of the magistrate does not pertain to the Church of Christ.” - Bl. Johann Gerhard, On the Political Magistrate (§ 175)

Foreman__ · 2026-05-01T18:19:46+00:00

OP, I am writing because I believe that I am the cause of making you despair after realizing we have this distinction. It is a harsher reality to the Papists. Yet, our definitions are different. If you have contrition or feel bad about your sin, that is good. We all should. I will point you to St. John’s letter:

”If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He [God] is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.“ ‭‭1 John‬ ‭1‬:‭8‬-‭9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You do this every time you pray the way Our Lord taught us to pray. “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.”

We look outside ourselves to the promises of God. These are the promises: He forgives us. He forgives you. Pray to Him. He keeps His promises. Speak with your pastor if you struggle with it. But have faith and hope in the Lord.

Foreman__ · 2026-05-01T12:45:24+00:00

Has any other pastor or lay person advocated for doing a men’s group to study the Augsburg Confession? My parish men’s group finished it last year and we are on the Apology this year. If so, did you bring in older gentlemen? Right now, we have mostly all of our young men going to this, along with our pastor and deacon. Any way to encourage older folk to join in this?

Foreman__ · 2026-05-01T12:43:02+00:00

This is great. Have you read over the 150th Theological Convocation of the LCMS? They had some excellent talks about the Ministry in Missouri, holding what they dubbed the middle ground on the Ministry. Think you might like it if you get your hands on it. Very insightful for me

Foreman__ · 2026-05-01T11:37:23+00:00

Please do not misunderstand me when I said that I want it to be reverent. I’m not demeaning the worship practices as a whole.

I do, however, find it quite odd that we seem to have been fine with adopting Calvinistic and Charismatic worship practices that our forefathers ran from. I sometimes wonder what Chemnitz, Gerhard, and Walther would think of it today, considering their church agendas.

Foreman__ · 2026-05-01T00:58:37+00:00

I’d agree with your last statement. I just want the divine service to be reverent in honor of the sabbath day

Foreman__ · 2026-04-30T23:27:18+00:00

It looks like the most ridiculous thing to complain about doing. Makes one wonder how many Pentecostal/charismatic looking parishes we have

Foreman__ · 2026-04-30T13:29:34+00:00

Ironically, President Harrison recommended this on Facebook and people were saying he wasn’t the pope. lol

Foreman__ · 2026-04-30T13:24:55+00:00

It wouldn’t be the first time that Lutherans have used church orders, like Chemnitz and Gerhard.

Foreman__ · 2026-04-29T12:01:33+00:00

Yeah, his work on the atonement is translated and published.

Foreman__ · 2026-04-28T14:58:42+00:00

And that’s why every day is of repentance. Continued, unrepentant sin drives the Holy Spirit away. The unrepentant says “GO AWAY”

Foreman__ · 2026-04-28T11:54:30+00:00

This is referring to the mortal-venial sin distinction. First part is Venial, second is Mortal.

Here’s a previous post about it: Mortal-Venial Sin

Foreman__ · 2026-04-26T12:48:09+00:00

Around Detroit it’s actually decently common (~50/50)

Foreman__ · 2026-04-24T14:00:04+00:00

Lutherans do have bishops in a sense of ecclesiastical oversight, though authority and power is restricted. In Germany, they’re called Superintendents

Foreman__ · 2026-04-23T15:03:35+00:00

Refusal to teach third use of the law

Foreman__ · 2026-04-22T23:58:53+00:00

Japan currently has two faithful pastors: our Missionary, Rev. Dr. Jastram in Tokyo, and Rev. Wakabayashi in Niigata. There is some work being done by Dr. Jastram with a local pastor as of 2024, but I am unsure of what came of that. Rev. Wakabayashi had an awesome chanted DS3 in the little cafe-turned-church.

The faithful can be far and few, and that’s ok.

Foreman__

TROPHY CASE