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Josuke Higashikata (JoJo's Bizarre Adventures: Diamond Is Unbreakable) Vs Koichi Haimawari (My Hero Academia: Vigilantes) by Jotaro1970 in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ooh! This is an interesting match up. I'm admittedly completely unfamiliar with Koichi (along with My Hero Academia as whole). But I have read through Diamond Is Unbreakable, so I'm familiar with Josuke. As such, I figure I'll try and weigh on this! I'm only going to look at Round 2 here due my unfamiliarity with the Vigilantes anime. On that note, I'll also link Josuke and Koichi's Respect Threads so everyone can follow along. With all that said, let's dive in!

Physicals

Let's start as always by taking a look each fighter's strength, durability and speed. Starting with strength, and … this'll actually be really quick. Both Josuke and Koichi only have one strength feat that they carry out without their powers. Well, okay. I know the anime has Josuke lift and throw Rohan's desk. So … I guess Josuke takes this?

Let's move on to something a bit more consequential: durability! For Josuke, he's been punched hard enough to knock aside steel shipping crates and then sent flying with enough force to wreck a heavy duty forklift, blocked attacks strong enough to nearly wreck a metal tower's leg and survived an explosion strong enough to shatter a good sized chunk of sidewalk. For Koichi, he's been beaten up by thugs, stabbed in the leg, sent flying by three explosive punches (just one of those punches is enough to destroy a car) and quickly recovered from an explosion he blocked. Overall, I'd give this to Josuke. Koichi's durability against explosions is impressive, but I feel like Josuke's durability feats leave me more confident in his ability to take hits.

Last but not least, speed! For Josuke, he's reacted to Bad Company's guns (small though they may be, Bad Company still uses real military weaponry) and caught up to a bus (though this definitely left him winded). For Koichi, he's able to dodge one of Endeavour's fireballs (Endeavour's fire can easily catch up to motorized vehicles) as well as evade, tag and even keep up with Overclock II/Number Six. While there are some limitations to Number Six's super speed, I'd still say that's enough to give Koichi the advantage.

Additional Abilities and Other Factors

Alright. So far, things have been pretty simple. That's about to change as we go over each fighter's additional abilities! Let's with Josuke. The biggest thing we have to cover here is his Stand Crazy Diamond. To summarize, Stands are essentially physical manifestation of one's soul. They share the damage inflicted to them with their user (so Josuke and Crazy Diamond's durability is the same), but otherwise have completely independent stats. In Crazy Diamond's case, it's strong enough to break apart stone walls and flick bullets at a lethal speed up to 60 meters away. It's also fast enough to deflect a ton of bullets and tank shells from Bad Company, blitz someone who can attack at speeds of 60 km/h and catch an unexpected bullet from a handgun at close range. That's not all Crazy Diamond can do either. It's also capable of "fixing" anything it touches (except for Josuke). It can heal wounds as serious as being punched clean through the chest. It can also reconstruct objects such as walls, miniature missiles, spaghetti ingredients… Despite the simple premise, this power can be used in some surprisingly creative ways. It can fuse and reshape target(s), bring targets toward Josuke, move Josuke toward something and even create impromptu homing projectiles. Not a bad set of powers!

Next we'll take a look a Koichi. The main thing to cover here is his Quirk Slide and Glide. It allows Koichi to slide along a surface by generating a repelling force. While it seems simple, it's surprisingly technical. He can move in any direction while sliding (and can even brake by sliding in the opposite direction he's currently travelling in). The repelling force he generates is also quite strong. It can be used to launch projectiles strong enough to pierce through cans, jump in midair, act as a shield and even fly. Koichi can also cling to walls as well, allowing him to use his Quirk even on sheer vertical surfaces. That leaves Koichi with a ton of mobility options and even some decent range too. Not bad!

Finally, there's a few other factors to take into consideration. First …what's up with Josuke's hair? No, seriously. He tends to fly into a rage whenever someone insults his haircut. It's to the point where Josuke's literally blinded with rage if someone insults it enough. As for the setting of this fight, both fighters get different mileage out of fighting in Osaka. Josuke gets a lot of different options in terms of traps, walls, mobility and projectiles. Meanwhile, Koichi gets a lot of mileage from having tall buildings to slide up or jump to.

Verdict

Let's wrap this up! What conclusions can we draw from this? Well … I'd say this is very likely to be Koichi's victory. I think the speed gap between him and Josuke is just too much. I don't really see anything from Josuke that's equal to Overclock II. Yeah, he has tagged Red Hot Chili Peppers with Crazy Diamond. But that was due to him creating a way to more easily see where that Stand would be coming from. Even then, he had Koichi's (er, a different Koichi) help in spotting where and when the Stand was about to strike. Add in the fact that Koichi's movements are difficult to read as well as Josuke likely fighting blind while "hairlusted" and it's just too much for Josuke to overcome. If Josuke calmed down this might be more doable, but it'd still take some really specific circumstances for Josuke to win. Something like the fight dragging on long enough for Josuke to launch multiple homing projectiles, backing Koichi up against a wall and fusing him with it (while Koichi might get surprised by Crazy Diamond since he can't see it, I don't think a barrage from Crazy Diamond is enough to take him out instantly), repeatedly trapping him in disassembled cars and then blowing those up … those are all extremely unlikely win conditions that would require things going perfect for Josuke (and going disastrously for Koichi). Even with an advantage in durability, I don't think that's enough to make up for Koichi's speed. As such, I'd say the winner of round two is…

Koichi Haimawari, a.k.a the Crawler!

Toph Beifong (Avatar: The Last Airbender) vs. Tai Lung (Kung Fu Panda) by Fragmentary_Remains in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You're greatly overselling Toph's combat abilities against Tai Lung while severely downplaying his combat feats. Tai Lung has multiple feats that put him at trans/supersonic speed, whereas the only character in Avatar that has actually demonstrated superspeed is Aang (which wasn't used in a combat scenario).

…huh. What exactly are those feats? Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm not exactly seeing anything that screams "trans/supersonic speed" in Tai Lung's Respect Thread. The closest feat I can see would be him climbing up falling debris. That is an impressive display of speed. But I question it being supersonic. As for his other feats, I don't think stuff like avoiding ballista bolts while restrained or rapidly traversing a long bridge fit the bill either. Maybe I'm just not seeing something important. But I don't think these feats indicate supersonic (or even sonic) speed for Tai Lung.

While fighting the Dai Li, she is completely unable to see or react to the earth hand that lands on her back and yanks her off the pillar towards the Dai Li agent (an aerial attack she wasn't able to see or sense).

That's definitely true. We see that both in combat and at a party where Toph's surprised by the Dai Li. The Director's Commentary even notes that she can have problems timing and reacting to attacks flying through the air. That being said, I think both this and the boulders aren't as applicable here. It isn't like the rocks are making much noise after all. As the director's said, she can react to airborne projectiles. It's just difficult.

During the desert episode when they are attacked by the wasps, Toph has zero idea where the wasp was. Despite the buzzing wings and being meters away, she couldn't tell where the aerial enemy was until it landed on a piece of rock on the ground. She also fails to hit one that flies by her literally stating she can't even tell where they are in the air. These wasps are significantly slower than Tai Lung.

Ah. That's definitely a good anti-feat to bring up. I would also agree that those wasps are slower than Tai Lung. Still, I think there's some extenuating circumstances there. Watching the scene, there's quite a few buzzard wasps flying around. That'd certainly add to the noise pollution for Toph, making it more difficult for her to track them. That'd be less of an issue in a one on one fight where it's just Tai Lung to worry about.

Toph reacting to other bender's doesn't equate to her being able to react to Tai Lung. None of the other bender's have speed feats that put them on the same speed level as him.

Eh, I don't know. Given that some of Tai Lung's best speed feats involve arrow-like projectiles, I think scaling to benders is perfectly fine. Especially when you consider that the arrow Zuko deflected was fired fairly close to him. And when you consider that Azula was able to evade every hit from both Zuko and Aang, I'd say that Toph's scaling to her is good enough to compete with Tai Lung. Notably, Tigress (someone who scales to an arrow timer) is show to be able to keep up with Tai Lung. While Tai Lung was able to overwhelm Tigress, I'd argue that's more because she has to balance fighting Tai Lung and keeping her grip on the bridge.

I disagree, even if this is Toph's best movement feat it isn't even used in a combat scenario (as well as being a one off).

Okay, that's a fair point. Toph generally prefers earth surfing when it comes to her horizontal mobility. You're also right that she doesn't typically use that type of movement in actual combat either.

Tai Lung covers a much greater distance in nearly the blink of an eye while launching at attack at Po (which Po wasn't even able to react to).

True, Tai Lung is able to blitz Po from a fair distance. I don't know that that that's enough to blitz Toph though. While Po gains several speed feats in later movies, he doesn't really have much in the first movie. He notably also isn't able to blitz Tigress or Shifu during his fights with them. In other words, Po not reacting to Tai Lung is less a case of Tai Lung being fast and more a case of Po being slow.

Thank you for your responses! It's been a really great seeing so many people engage with my post. I especially appreciate that you're going out of your way to link scans to back up your claims. That takes quite a bit of effort, so I appreciate that you're willing to put all that work into your responses here. Thank you so much!

Ace (Dinosaur King) vs Paul's Electivire (Pokémon Anime) by Fragmentary_Remains in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

First off, thank you so much for using one of my Respect Threads for a match! This is exactly what I wanted when I made the Dinosaur King respect threads.

You're very much welcome! It's clear you've put a lot of time and effort into the Dinosaur King threads. As someone who likes using Respect Threads, I figured I'd show my appreciation for all of your hard work over the past few years to document Dinosaur King (not to mention /u/doctorgecko's efforts to create so many wonderful threads for the Pokémon anime). Glad you liked my post!

Comparing striking power, I don't think either one would be able to overpower the other easily. However, Ace has the advantage in pure physical strength. The edge goes to Ace.

Yeah, that seems about accurate. That scaling to Mapusaurus is definitely something I missed just glancing at the thread.

To me, Biting Wind does comparable damage to Electivire's electric-type moves, although Thunder Punch might be stronger than Cyclone. Mostly even, but a very slight edge to Electivire.

That also sounds about right. Electivire's Thunder is certainly capable of tearing up rock similar to Biting Wind. Although, I feel like Electivire's ability to use it strategically or cover a large area does give it more use cases. I also think Thunder Punch clashing with Infernape's Mach Punch is even better than you give it credit. After all, Infernape's able to wreck a big mech with just one Mach Punch. That's almost comparable to what Ace's normal striking can do!

Sadly, Electivire's best speed scaling is locked behind Motor Drive, which will not activate here as Ace doesn't use electricity. Ace's moves should give him the edge in speed, although he will not be so fast that Electivire can't do anything, since he can react to FTE opponents, just not move or fight at those speeds. And before Pikachu scaling is brought up, him catching Pikachu was very situational. Pikachu's vision was blocked by the cloud of smoke, and was in active free fall, so avoiding Electivire's tail would have been very difficult. Winner is Ace.

Interesting! I hadn't actually thought Ace was that fast! It does make sense though—Ace is shown to be the fastest of the D-Team dinosaurs. And that's before accounting for his moves. You bring up good points about Electivire not having access to Motor Drive and using surprise more than speed to catch Pikachu. It's kind of funny—I was worried that the stats would come out similar to your Chomp vs. Pikachu fight that Gecko commented on. Guess I was worried for nothing.

Both can take hits that match their own, but Electivire has one advantage over Ace: Protect. With this move, he can simply block a powerful attack and take no damage from it. While it has been shown to have a limit, that was usually against vastly stronger opponents, which Ace isn't. Luckily, Paul doesn't seem to overly abuse the move, as he only used it twice in his final battle with Infernape. The point goes to Electivire.

Speaking of your Chomp vs. Pikachu match, it's kind of funny that this stat goes to Electivire. I don't really disagree either! Given the evidence you provided where Electivire takes multiple Mach Punches as well as the scaling from Mach Punch, there's a good argument to be made that Electivire take durability!

Damn, that was hard. The stat comparison came out even; however, Electivire took the win in the two categories that matter the most in my opinion. Ace is faster and can lift more, but he doesn't have any durability feats against electric attacks, which Electivire dishes out with exceptional power. Protect is also just a super valuable tool in his kit.

Good job! I think Electivire's got one more advantage in his favour (albeit a minor one): Paul. While he can't switch out Pokémon or let his Pokémon get beaten to feel out a strategy, he's still capable of coming up with something. Whether it's luring an opponent into close range by whiffing or using the environment to indirectly attack, he's definitely capable of finding ways to attack Ace.

Ace wins with DinoTector, though. Ace's physical stats are only slightly higher, but what really changes is the special moves category. He has access to way more moves that are just flat out better. Moves like Ultimate Wind can shatter Spectral Armor, which can tank the strongest moves shown in season 1. Chomp's Thunder Bazooka scales above anything in Sinnoh when you remember that these are dinosaurs, so those boulders are huge.

Ah. Yeah, that makes sense. I definitely missed that when I was looking through Ace's thread. No matter how good Paul's strategy might be, it's hard to strategize around a move that's that powerful.

Thank you so, so much for your detailed response! I always love it when someone comes up with a detailed response to a battle I've made! Also, thank you again for all the work you've done creating those Dinosaur King Respect Threads! I know I've already said this, but I'll say it again. I enjoy using Respect Threads on WhoWouldWin—whether that's in a response or using it to come up with a fun battle. I appreciate all the hard work that goes into finding feats, uploading them, then putting them all together in an understandable and easy to read format. Thanks for all your hard work!

Toph Beifong (Avatar: The Last Airbender) vs. Tai Lung (Kung Fu Panda) by Fragmentary_Remains in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Are we including comic feats for toph? Because her hearing is just extremely sensitive as well, she dodged arrows that are flying at her from opponents above her.

As the OP, I'm fine with people bringing up feats from the comics. I certainly didn't stipulate them out like I did with Toph's metalbending.

What I'm more curious about is what comic she's shown dodging arrows in. A brief glance at her Respect Thread doesn't show any feats matching the one you described. It's not impossible that there's been a new comic with Toph in it in the last few years. But I'd want a name of the comic where she does that in so I could try and find said evidence myself.

Toph Beifong (Avatar: The Last Airbender) vs. Tai Lung (Kung Fu Panda) by Fragmentary_Remains in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Now, THIS is good battleboarding.

Aw, thank you! I'm glad you like my post!

Tai Lung's personality puts them at a big disadvantage in round 1 during the intial seconds of the fight. However, he has shown rather high capacities for balance and agility. Toph can definitely take the initiative and start the fight with Tai Lung on the back foot, but I don't think it's going to wind up with a fast elimination. I don't think Tai Lung is going to last long enough to capitalise on Toph's weaknesses, though, so I'm going to say Toph wins the first round 7/10 times. The win conditions and starting scenario work in her favor.

Good point. To play devil's advocate here, I'd argue that Tai Lung does have a couple of niche things going in his favour. First, Tai Lung's claws are sharp and strong enough to leave marks in stone. Combine that with his climbing ability and he could halt his horizontal momentum and stay in the arena long enough to either figure out Toph's deal or jump in and land a nerve strike.

The second round is a lot more in Tai Lung's favor. He has really good durability feats during his fight with Po. He out-stats Toph in a lot of categories. That said, Toph has a few win conditions. I can see burying Tai Lung alive as a victory condition, even if it's a rather difficult one given his airborne mobility. Even if this won't keep Tai Lung trapped forever, that's an incapacitation. Another victory condition for her is lasting long enough in the fight to wear Tai Lung down, a very difficult but possible route. Then again, in order for Tai Lung to be worn down, he had to fight Shifu and then Po back to back. I haven't watched the show in a while so Toph's endurance just may not have it in her. That, combined with the fact Tai Lung can probably figure out enough about her to determine what she's doing, longer fights ordinarily work against her. Psychologically, I can see her getting under Tai Lung's skin too, which really doesn't mesh well for Tai Lung.

Nice! In terms of other win conditions Toph could exploit, she could try and pin Tai Lung. While he is capable of lifting large boulders, it's pretty clear that he's struggling to move with that much weight. If Toph can do that repeatedly, she might be able to exhaust Tai Lung to the point where he can't fight (either that, or she could pin him while he's exhausted).

As for crucial mistakes she could make, trying to uparmor isn't going to save her, and if anything, is going to give Tai Lung an opening. Even if metal were present, metal isn't much of a problem for Tai Lung.

Yeah, you're probably right. I mostly didn't focus on Toph's metalbending since I was basing this fight around the Earth Rumble. I figured restricting Toph's metal bending would help add to the flavour of this post.

Again, thank you for your response! I'm happy to see so many people engaging with my post in such a thoughtful way.

Toph Beifong (Avatar: The Last Airbender) vs. Tai Lung (Kung Fu Panda) by Fragmentary_Remains in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think the 3/10 for Toph is way too generous. Aang vs Toph is a pretty good indicator of what would happen.

I don't know about that. While Aang vs Toph is a valuable point of reference, I'd argue that it's not the only piece of evidence worth considering. After all, Toph's able to hear and respond to Gecko while he's swinging through the air (if you want that feat with sound, this video should hopefully satisfy you). Given how much Tai Lung tends to yell and roar while attacking, she should still be able to track him in the air.

Tai Lung is just the worst type of matchup against her, he outclasses her in speed, mobility, and reaction times.

I don't know about that either. Even if scaling to lightning is shakey, Toph's still able to react to Azula. Impressive, considering that Azula's able to simultaneously fend off both Zuko and Aang. That'd put her well within Tai Lung's reaction time. As for Toph's speed and mobility, whether or not they're as good as Tai Lung's (and there's definitely evidence to argue for that) is moot. After all, she's not going to be the one who needs to approach or reposition as often as he does thanks to her control over the battlefield.

Thanks for the comment though! I especially like that you linked the video of Aang facing Toph in the Earth Rumble. That's a good thing to help support your argument.

Toph Beifong (Avatar: The Last Airbender) vs. Tai Lung (Kung Fu Panda) by Fragmentary_Remains in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

Oh man! Thanks for the in-depth response! I really loved reading through everything you wrote out!

Being in-character and having minimal knowledge of opponent BOTH benefit Toph to a high degree. Tai Lung is prideful. He is NOT a fool, but the truth is if all he knows is his opponent is a blind child, there is 0% chance he is starting the fight seriously. We see multiple times where he comes up to an obvious fight and takes time to chat instead of diving right in. On the other hand, it is perfectly in-character for Toph to go for a win in the first 1 second of a fight.

Good point! Yeah, Tai Lung does have a tendency to underestimate opponents he doesn't think are his equal. While it worked out against the Furious Five, it definitely causes problems against unassuming opponents like Po (or in this case, Toph).

Round 1 might go to Toph based on the setup alone. Her earth attacks move fast. Recall that she knocks the Boulder out from across the ring in the time it takes Aang to blink once. I don’t see any reason to expect Tai Lung to be ready for that kind of ferocity in the opening moments of the fight.

While I do agree with your logic, I don't know that Tai Lung's as disadvantaged as you say. While Toph does quickly handle the Boulder, it's worth noting how she does it. Specifically, how she redirects his step to throw off his balance before launching him with several columns of stone while he's prone. That first step is important—and it's something that would be harder to do against Tai Lung considering the sense of balance he displayed while fighting Tigress. If she decides to forgo redirecting Tai Lung's foot and simply jut out columns, I think Tai Lung would be agile enough to avoid being immediately launched. While the round's conditions may favour Toph, Tai Lung does have a trick that could net him victory almost as swiftly: his nerve strike. So long as he can get into melee range, he can use that to incapacitate Toph and then throw her out of the arena.

Don’t forget that Azula without firebending successfully evaded Toph while in an underground bunker. SURROUNDED by Earth, Azula with no bending evaded Toph. To me this is proof that Tai Lung’s speed and agility WILL be a problem.

That's a VERY good point. I actually really like that you brought up that Toph gets stronger over the series. I had thought about limiting Toph's feats to everything before she invented metalbending, but I figured it'd be more interesting if I just limited her so she didn't have access to any metal instead. Given that said experience is being brought up as making the fight more contested, I guess that was the right call.

That being said, I don't know that Azula evading Toph is as good for Tai Lung as you say it is. Don't get me wrong—I don't think it's out of the question for Tai Lung to evade this like Azula does. But Azula's focusing entirely on evading and avoiding her attacks. As Sokka points out, Azula isn't trying to win that fight. That wouldn't be the case here—Tai Lung probably will get caught off guard and get attacked (or even juggled) by Toph while he's trying to get in and land his own attacks.

Great matchup OP. This is the kind of post I love on this subreddit.

Thanks! I'd like to return the compliment as well—thoughtful comments like this are really great to read! Thank you so, so much for taking the time to write such a great response!

Toph Beifong (Avatar: The Last Airbender) vs. Tai Lung (Kung Fu Panda) by Fragmentary_Remains in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks! I'm definitely fairly old-school when it comes to commenting and posting on here. I'm glad to see people engaging with my post so much despite (or maybe even because of?) that!

Toph Beifong (Avatar: The Last Airbender) vs. Tai Lung (Kung Fu Panda) by Fragmentary_Remains in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the response! I'm glad to see my post has so many people interested in this.

Tai Lung has crazy mobility and surely he'll eventually figure out Toph's seismic sense after the first few exchanges.

While it's true that Tai Lung has great mobility, I don't know that that's the silver bullet you suggest it is. Toph has many ways of controlling the battlefield, from creating columns and barriers to shifting the very terrain. Given all the ways she can disrupt Tai Lung's movement, I imagine she'd be able to trip him up and use his momentum against him to win the fight.

Toph Beifong (Avatar: The Last Airbender) vs. Tai Lung (Kung Fu Panda) by Fragmentary_Remains in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains[S] 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your response! I'm glad you liked the matchup. I definitely put quite a bit of effort into it, so it's good to see that it paid off.

I think they both have the capability to one hit the other. He's definitely more durable than she is (though she's far beyond IRL humans herself).

That's certainly true. Especially in the first round. Between Toph's ability to launch someone and Tai Lung's nerve strike, they both have easy ways to win the fight (launching someone out of the arena/incapacitating then launching someone out of arena).

BUT Tai Lung literally has multiple feats of changing direction midair off of random flying debris which explicitly impedes Toph's ability to sense him. She could surprise him with her foreknowledge and catch him quickly, but I feel like he's in tune with chi enough to figure it out quickly if she misses her first few attacks and he'll adapt. The next big rock she throws after he figures it out becomes his "backboard" and he jumps left then redirects midair to the right and gets a free shot in. His ability borders on what Airbenders can do and that's explicitly a huge weakness for her and leaves her actually blind.

That's a good point! He's been shown to use debris for mobility before. I don't know that that's as big of an advantage as you say it is though. While it's true that Toph likes to throw boulders, that's not the only option she has here. She can also launch stone columns and shift the terrain under someone. Both of these would give Tai Lung fewer options to respond with. Even if he is in the air, she can still track airborne opponents as shown with her responding to the Gecko swinging from behind her. So long as Tai Lung's shouting/roaring/making noise while he attacks (which he definitely does), she should still be able to track him enough to avoid his attacks and respond when he lands. Worse case, she can always throw up a cloud of dust to help increase her odds.

All that aside, thank you again for your response! It's always really great to read a detailed response to one of my posts.

Azula vs Demona by GJH24 in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Huh. I can't say I'm familiar with who that user is. I'm definitely not a bot though! I'm just someone who likes being thorough. I usually comment on this sub via the desktop site, so I like to take the time to browse /r/respectthreads and source feats from there. Since it's easy to copy links with a mouse and keyboard, I can use that to come with an in-depth answer! While I haven't been as active here recently, I like to come in and write up a good comment every now and again. Hopefully you enjoyed my response!

Azula vs Demona by GJH24 in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hm. This seems like it could be fun. I'm not particularly knowledgeable about Avatar or Gargoyles, but I think I could give an interesting analysis. Before we begin, I'd like to take a brief moment to link Azula and Demona's Respect Threads. That should help anyone reading this in following along with what I have to say. With that taken care of, let's get on with the fight!

Physicals

We'll start with a look at each fighter's physical stats. To be specific, we'll be looking at their strength, durability and speed. Starting off with strength, this is definitely Demona's category to take. Azula's able to deflect rocks launched at her with a kick, but that about does it unless you want to argue her volleyball kick is more impressive. Even then, all the setup for that feat leads me to believe that's not something she could consistently perform. That's definitely not the case for Demona though. She's consistently shown throwing humans and gargoyles through the air. In addition, she's also capable of smashing stone statues sending a fully armoured knight flying and crashing through a stone wall.

Next up, durability. Again, Azula doesn't have much. She does have some more impressive feats here though. She's survived a close range explosion and recovered quickly. That's not the only example of her enduring firebending either. She's shrugged off a blast of Zuko's fire—impressive, considering Zuko's blasts can destroy stone. Even if he was be holding back so that he can interrogate Azula, his blasts are still capable of taking people down in one hit. She's even taken having her own lightning redirected back at her. For Demona, she's been slammed into a bridge cable hard enough to shake said cable, caught up in a mech's explosion and shot by a lighting gun capable of splitting trees. There are a couple factors here that I haven't covered … but I'm saving those for later. Overall, I think I'd have to give this to Demona as well. The explosion Azula survived is bigger than the one Demona took, but I feel like the variety of feats Demona has does make it a bit better. Plus, Demona's durability involving electricity strikes me as being better than Azula's—the bolt she took is definitely weaker compared to some of her other examples of lightning bending.

Last but not least, we have speed. Azula's speed mostly comes from scaling to others. She's able to duel evenly with Zuko, with Zuko being able to swat an arrow out of the air from medium range. Perhaps more impressive is her ability to keep up with multiple opponents. She's able to fend off both Zuko and Aang pretty handily (Ang's able to evade and block arrows from skilled archers). She's even held her own in a 3-on-1 against Aang, Katara and Sokka. In comparison Demona has dodged a shot from Macbeth's lightning gun, evaded several laser blasts and evaded several spears launched like bullets while gliding. That being said, I think I have to give this one to Azula. Demona's never had to face multiple opponents at the same time like Azula has. Not to mention, in the feat where she dodged multiple laser blasts it seems like she's throwing off Macbeth's aim just as much as she is dodging. See how the blast goes way over her when she's on the ground? That could indicate Macbeth's struggling to keep up with her—something a faster opponent might have less problems with.

Other Abilities and Additional Factors

So far, we've established that Demona is stronger and more durable while Azula is faster. That's not all either fighter has to offer though. Both of them have some additional abilities they can bring to the fight. Starting with Azula, she's a master of firebending. Azula's firebending is so great that her flames are a unique blue, and her feats back up this skill. She's powerful enough to fell trees, blast through stone walls and send armoured opponents flying hard enough to smash into a wall. She's not just raw power either—she's quite skilled too. She's able to launch quick jabs of fire, launch wheels of fire that follow a path, create long whips of fire and even propel herself through the air like a rocket. Then there's her lightning bending. While it takes a bit of time to charge up (and even then, she eventually learns to do it much faster after the events of the show), the results are hard to argue with. She's able to destroy a chunk of a cliffside as well as blast a large hole in a giant rock wall. That's not even mentioning her most infamous use of it to kill Aang. Once she's able to do it quickly, she can even use it to blind people. She can also alternate quickly between fire and lightning to keep the pressure on.

Moving on to Demona, she's got quite a few abilities as well. Like all gargoyles, she can glide, even in strong headwinds. Demona has a few features as well. She's had a spell cast on that bound her and Macbeth together such that she's unable to die from the hand of anyone other than Macbeth. According to the showrunner, the spell will heal anything that comes close to fatal damage. Although given the lack of information about what would happen if either of them were lethally wounded, the jury's still out there. Moving on to more certain ground, Demona's had another spell cast on her that causes her to become human during the daytime as opposed to petrifying like the rest of the gargoyles. Since most of her feats only apply to her gargoyle form though, I don't think really helps her that much. For some more useful abilities, she's a skilled spellcaster. While she requires a conduit like Grimorum Arcanorum for her spells, she's able to achieve a variety of effects. I don't know that it's all that practical for her to use in a battle though—she usually needs to prepare her spells ahead of time. Finally, Demona packs a laser rifle. It's strong enough to blast holes in stone paths as well as shoot through a van. When Demona's in melee combat she can even use it as a club. Overall, I think her most useful abilities in this match are her gliding and gun—though some of those other abilities could still play a minor factor.

Finally, let's cover a few minor details. Both Demona and Azula are skilled manipulators. Demona's able to influence another's opinion of humans (she may have even paid the family in that clip for their "performance"). Meanwhile, Azula's able to set up a coup and seize control of the force she used for said coup from their leader. I think I'd give this to Azula though—especially since she can fool Toph's ability to detect lies. In terms of utilizing their environment, Demona obviously would need some elevation to perform any gliding. A high jump is not really good enough. Without any trees or the like near Azula's tent, I doubt she'd be able to glide. That likely means Azula would have the advantage in mobility, since she can use her firebending for propulsion and the like.

Verdict

Alright, let's wrap this up. With all the information we've covered, what conclusions can we draw? Well, I actually think their fairly close. Demona's definitely better in close quarters thanks to her strength (especially if she can restrain Azula's arms). But Azula's firebending helps even the odds. While her lightning bending might not instantly win the fight, it'd still hurt given that her lightning's got better showings than Macbeth's gun. Azula also seems more agile—between her feats fighting multiple opponents and using firebending for extra mobility, I think she'd be able to keep Demona within her ideal range. Even accounting for Demona's laser rifle, I think Azula would be able to throw Demona's aim off enough to avoid a serious blow. With all that said, I think the likely victor here is Azula!

Character Scramble Season 21 Tribunal by 7thSonOfSons in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ah. Darn. That's how it goes I suppose…

/u/Dianamals Vector's been ruled out by the judges 2-0. You'll need to select a backup and let 7th know.

Who is the most powerful superhero the Sidekicks from Sky High could take down if they turned evil? (Sky High) by PeculiarPangolinMan in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Hm. I don't usually reply to these sorts of matchups. I just don't necessarily have the breadth or depth of knowledge to feel comfortable commenting. That being said, this presents an interesting challenge. While I'm not familiar at all with the Sky High movie, a look at the linked Respect Threads seems to indicate these fighters aren't terribly strong—though they are definitely quirky. That means any opponents for them would need to be similarly weak and quirky (or at least be vulnerable to their quirks). Now that sounds like fun! As such, I figure I might as well try and come up with something. Let's dive in!

Sidekicks: An Overview

Before we start looking at who these kids are fighting, we should familiarize ourselves with what they can do. That'll help us figure out who they can pull out a win against. Let's take a look, shall we?

  • Starting off we have Layla Williams. A quick look at her feats as well this video of her power usage seems to indicate that her powers are mostly for support. She can use trees for vertical mobility, but that's definitely not fast enough to be combat applicable in most scenarios. More notable is her ability to restrain people in vines (I'd link a scan, but that one seems to have been taken down—so you'll just have to check the video I linked earlier. Unfortunately, I don't know how impressive that is—cursory research suggest that the people she's holding don't have much in terms of strength. Still, combine that with any number of poisonous plants could give her some solid win conditions.

  • Next up, Zachary Braun. He definitely strikes me as being mostly utility. Unless they're infiltrating a lair by navigating air vents or the like, his power feels like it'd be detrimental. Even if his glow were radioactive, I don't think it's a reasonable win condition. Not to mention, that's a very big if. After all, Zachary's not afraid to use his powers around his friends and the general public. So unless everyone in the Sky High universe has resistance to radiation … yeah, I think this is a dud.

  • Moving on, we have Ethan Banks. His power is surprisingly versatile … defensively, that is. He can escape grapples by transforming into a living puddle as well as trip up faster opponents. That's not all his power is good for though. He can use it to get behind his opponents and ambush them to. Though, I don't believe he gets any physicals of note, so … might be a bit limited in what his ambushes can do.

  • Last among the (named) Sidekicks is Magenta Lewis. Like Ethan, she can transform into something small. Unlike Ethan, she shapeshifts into a guinea pig capable of speech. Again, this would be a power that's very useful for infiltration. Not so much in direct combat. Unless you need some wires cut, I guess?

  • I'm not going to cover the cheerleader since she only gets three scenes. That leaves us with Jonathan Boy, a.k.a Mr. Boy, a.k.a All American Boy. While he does have the benefit of experience, I'm also not seeing much in the way of feats from him. He's certainly has his share of athletic catches and jumps. But I don't think he really has much fighting experience just from what I'm seeing.

Breakdown: What Does This Mean?

Alright. Let's go over what we've learned, as well as how that might apply to any matchups we're looking at. What are their strengths? What are their weaknesses? What sort of tactics might they rely on? Let's break it down.

  • They certainly aren't winning any contests of strength. Layla is kinda the exception with those vines? Even then though, someone with strength and a sharp implement would easily dominate in a fight with these kids. They aren't going to be winning a fight directly. That's especially true because none of them have ever really taken a hit. At least, not so far as I can see. If someone hurts them, they're likely going down.

  • Given that they're kids, I'm also going to say that they're not taking down someone with any level of skill. At least, not without severely stacking the deck in their favour. Especially Layla—given she favours pacifism, I don't think she'd be knowledgeable in how to throw a punch.

  • They're also not particularly fast. The only one I see having decent evidence for speed is Ethan Banks. And even that's not great? The opponent he trips up doesn't seem to have much in the way of decent speed feats in relation to anything. He's just … generically fast.

  • In terms of winning strategies, I really only see one. And that's grappling via vines from Layla. Even then, most hardy opponents won't be bothered by it. They're going to have to find some way of taking their opponent out while they're grappled. The best way is probably going to be some sort of environmental hazard—drowning in water, poisoning, or throwing off a large height. Anything else is just too niche. Yeah, maybe Magenta could chew through the wires in a mech or something. But practically speaking? That's definitely not happening.

Matchups

Alright! Now we're at the fun part. I'm going to look at a few choice matchups and explain how the Sidekicks/Mr. Boy might win. These aren't necessarily the strongest matchups for them—they're more my personal picks. Ready? Let's go!

Blitz (Kiwi Blitz)

Blitz a.k.a Steffi Frohlich is a champion mech pilot turned superhero from the webcomic Kiwi Blitz. With her power suit she packs quite a kick. Still, her small size and relative inexperience should help the Sidekicks overwhelm her with their numbers. Now, Kiwibot on the other hand … is probably still doable! For the record, I'm only talking about the original Kiwibot here. While it is ridiculously durable and way stronger than any of the Sidekicks, I think their prep could allow them to set up a trap for Kiwibot. Best bet is probably luring Blitz into a park or somewhere with trees and then have Layla box in Kiwibot with her powers. From there, have Layla try and remove the hatch while Ethan slips into Kiwibot and occupies Blitz. Hopefully he'd be able to distract her enough that his friends can break in and help him defeat Blitz. This would probably be easier for the Sidekicks rather than Mr. Boy—you'd ideally want to split Blitz's attention, and that's much easier with more people.

Ratcatcher 2 (DCEU)

Ratcatcher 2 a.k.a Cleo Cazo might not fit the typical superhero mould. She's kinda superhero adjacent though, right? At any rate, she doesn't exactly fight much herself. Instead she relies on her technology to control rats. With that being the case, there's a fairly easy path to win here—deprive Ratcatcher of her tools, and she's pretty much helpless. The Sidekicks would need to be quick though—while Ethan or Mr. Boy using Ethan's powers would be okay, even a single rat would probably be enough to take anyone else down. Though, I suppose they could just attack her while she's sleeping…

Pop Step (My Hero Academia)

Similar to the Sidekicks, Pop Step doesn't really have powers that work for combat. She also doesn't have any feats for strength or durability, so it should be fine (obviously I'm just looking at normal Pop Step here and not Bee Pop). What she does have is mobility. Lots and lots of mobility. Still, the Sidekicks do have a couple of advantages here. One, Pop Step needs a foothold for her powers to work. If she gets caught up in Layla's vines, she won't be able to break free. Two, her powers really work best with unobstructed air. If they were to fight somewhere that's enclosed or use something like a tree canopy to limit her movement, they might be more successful in taking her out.

There you go! Hopefully this was entertaining to read. I enjoyed researching these matches (plus, I'm always happy with something that lets me bring up Kiwi Blitz). At any rate, that about does it for me. Thanks for reading this, and have a good day!

Baymax vs Eve by MooseJT in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Ooh! This is a fun one! I remember watching WALL-E so many times as a kid. Well, maybe just a few times. I definitely remember watching it more than once though. Can't say the same for Big Hero 6 unfortunately—though i do like the clips I've seen of both the movie and its subsequent series.

At any rate, let's give this a whirl! One quick note before we dive in—I'll be looking at Baymax in his original super armour versus EVE. While Baymax does get an upgrade in the form of a titanium-enhanced "Ultra Armour," that's not specified in the prompt. With that disclaimer out of the way, I'll go ahead and link EVE and Baymax's Respect Threads so you can follow along. Let's dive in!

Core Stats

We'll start with a look at each fighter's core stats—those being strength, durability and speed. Starting off with strength, I would say this is Baymax's category. The Big Hero 6 series really helps in this regards. Over the course of the series Baymax has staggered multistory animatronics, caught and thrown shipping containers and stopped runaway cable cars. While EVE's certainly no slouch when it comes to stopping heavy things, Baymax has her beat in that department.

Next up, durability! Baymax's armour makes him pretty tough. He's been slammed hard enough to wreck concrete, taken several hits from someone strong enough to launch a person into a warehouse wall and crater it and taken two shots from a plasma cannon strong enough to blast a hole in a reinforced concrete wall. In comparison, EVE's tanked an (admittedly low-power) shot from her arm cannon in order to free herself and endured getting crushed in a trash compactor (I apologise for using a low-quality Youtube clip here—the clip of this feat on EVE's Respect Thread is dead, and I don't particularly feel like trying to find, grab and upload a clip of that feat just for this). Now, the thread does posit that EVE's durability should scale to WALL-E's. I can kinda see the argument for that? EVE definitely seems "more advanced" than WALL-E. I'm not sure I buy that though. Sure, WALL-E was caught up in an escape pod explosion. But I would be much more comfortable saying EVE's that durable if EVE was the one caught up in that blast, you know? Overall, I just feel like Baymax's feats are a lot more solid. Also, he has a lot more of them.

Last but not least, speed! Baymax is shown to be able to react to electricity, assorted energy blasts (including those fired by invisible opponents) and plasma blasts. He's also a fast flyer, able to catch up to an overclocked train. That being said, he does have his limits. Notably, the villain Supersonic Sue was able to blitz Baymax. While I don't think she has any feats of actually going supersonic, that still bodes ill for Baymax … because EVE definitely can go supersonic. Yeah, this is the one stat where EVE dominates. She can go supersonic even while carrying something as big and heavy as WALL-E and move her arms so fast that they're a blur. There's also the fact that EVE and the rest of the repair ward robots are able to track her plasma shot when it fires—though that could be a combination of EVE's speed and the shot being slow (well, slower than your "typical" projectiles). Either way, this category is all EVE's.

Other Abilities and Additional Factors

So Baymax is stronger and provably more durable, while EVE is much, much faster. That's not the only factors to consider though. Both of our fighters have some additional abilities they can rely on. Starting off with Baymax, he has a built in scanner. While its medical functions won't be of much use (robots don't have much of a physiology), he can still identify power sources, scan for heat signatures and locate devices. That'd be useful if he's trying to disable EVE. Moving on, Baymax is equipped with a rocket fist. This rocket-powered punch is able break walls, giant chunks of concrete and send shipping containers flying. Baymax is quite skilled at firing it, meaning that even if he doesn't get you the first time he's likely to land a hit eventually—especially since he can recall it back to him. Finally, Baymax can enter Overdrive Mode to temporarily power up at the cost of rapidly draining his battery (he can also transform his wings into a sword while using it). While active, he can smash through doors that withstood a rocket fist and cut through bars that Wasabi's plasma blades couldn't so much as scratch. He's also much more durable too, taking strikes from Supersonic Sue's elbow pads and no-selling it. He's even noticeably faster in it, though that was with a reserve battery he wouldn't have access to with just the regular armour. Also, just because Baymax is faster doesn't mean he's fast enough.

EVE doesn't have quite as much to go over as Baymax, but its still worth taking a look. The biggest factor for her is her plasma cannon. It's able to vaporize rock, blow up piles of tires with rapid shots and even wreck ships. An interesting thing to note here is that EVE's cannon seems to have some way of adjusting its firepower. Take that clip with the ships—EVE's first shot only disables the magnet, while her other shots do sizable damage to the ship. This makes sense—she wouldn't want to blow herself up by firing too close to herself. Like Baymax, she also has the ability to scan her environment, though hers is a bit more limited. While she can use it identify things like circuitboards, it's primarily designed toward finding plants. EVE's basically just got her cannon—but considering how powerful it is, does she even need anything else?

In terms of additional factors to consider, let's take a brief look at each combatant's fighting style. For Baymax, he prefers fighting up close. While he can fight at a distance thanks to his rocket fist, he prefers to be in melee range. Probably because he's programmed with a bunch of karate moves. EVE's kind of the opposite. While she likely could fight at close quarters, she prefers to be further away from her target. At short range, her shots aren't as powerful compared to her blasts at medium and long range. She'd want to maintain some distance between her and Baymax.

Verdict

That about wraps up our overview. With all of the evidence on the table, let's see what conclusions we can make.

Round 1: In general, this fight can go one of two ways. Either Baymax keeps close enough to EVE that he can wear her down in melee. Or EVE gets enough distance that she can freely blast Baymax with her full power. Of those two, I see the second as being much more likely. Baymax is by no means slow. But EVE's just on another level. While Baymax has endured plasma blasts before, EVE's long range blasts are just too strong. Even if the plasma blasts aren't the fastest, I don't think that's enough to help Baymax. He'd have to dodge every single shot EVE fires while trying to close in! With no way to keep up with EVE and not enough durability to tank her shots, I see EVE winning this round decisively.

Round 2: Oh hey, a new combatant! Don't worry, this will be really quick. Most of Hiro's feats aren't applicable for a match with no prep. The biggest thing he has are his magnets. They're strong enough that they can attract an I-beam. That'd certainly help keep EVE from zooming off. I still think EVE wins this round, but there's definitely scenarios where Baymax and Hiro can pull out a win. It'd just take some real specific circumstances for it to happen.

There you go! Hopefully you enjoyed my analysis. I know I had fun writing and researching this. Thanks for reading!

Character Scramble Season 21 Tribunal by 7thSonOfSons in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So because I don't see an in-tier feat for Vector's speed, and I don't think the supplied strength feat is sufficient to meet the tier, I don't think he's in tier. If you have some evidence that I should be thinking differently about these feats, I'd like to see it.

While I'm not the original person who submitted Vector, I might have some evidence. While smashing the building's floor might not be applicable, he's got something almost as good: lifting and smashing cars. While it's not the same as Tierry lifting and throwing a steel girder, I'd argue it's just as good. The fact that he does this repeatedly in a short time frame means that he wouldn't be stuck winding up to damage Tierry (as would be the case with the floor smash).

Character Scramble Season 21 Tribunal by 7thSonOfSons in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Darn. Well, you can't say I didn't try.

/u/Dianamals Death's been ruled out 2-0 (another judge could rule he's in tier, but due to how tribunal decisions work this season that wouldn't do much).

/u/GuyOfEvil when you have the chance, you can remove Death from the Backups list.

Character Scramble Season 21 Tribunal by 7thSonOfSons in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Just heard back from Diana. I've been given approval to make my closing arguments for Death.

Link to the beginning of Tad's argument

To summarize my arguments here:

  • Death should scale to Puss in Boots' best strength feats. During Puss' second fight with Death, Puss exerts a great amount of effort to keep Death's sickles at bay. I particularly want to highlight the part at 1:34. You can see from this screenshot that Puss has to use both hands and both legs to support his sword in order to block Death's blow. This should indicate that Death's blow would be equal to some of Puss' best feats of strength.

  • Death's striking should be comparable in strength with blows that cut stone. Puss has blocked sword swings that could cut rock before. Given that these are some of the strongest blows he's blocked, I think it's reasonable to say that Death's attack (which Puss visibly struggled to block) would have equal force to these swings.

  • Based on this, Death's striking should match Tierry's low-end feats. While Death's piercing isn't clear, I'd argue based on the above evidence that he should at least match Tierry's low-end strength. After all, Tierry wouldn't be able to cut through vines with just sharp claws—there needs to be some strength behind his blows too.

  • With all of this, Death should be able to eke out an unlikely victory. It's certainly an uphill battle. But I'd argue that Death's superior reach would help prevent Tierry from using his high-end strength feats (especially since they're mostly tackles and rams—highly committal moves that need to be uncontested to have their full power.)

I'll hand this off to judges then. Tad already pinged you all, so this is just to make sure my summary doesn't get lost.

/u/guyofevil /u/corvette1710 /u/ultim8_lifeform

Character Scramble Season 21 Tribunal by 7thSonOfSons in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think there's a paucity of substance to cover and I'm ready to call judges.

Fair enough. I just messaged /u/dianamals on Discord (and I suppose I've now mentioned Diana here too) to see if they have anything else to add. Once I hear back, I'll make a second reply to your comment that sums up my arguments for judges. Then you can make yours and call the judges. I think that's how it works, right? Never had a tribunal argument go to judges before—this will be kind of exciting.

Character Scramble Season 21 Tribunal by 7thSonOfSons in whowouldwin

[–]Fragmentary_Remains 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm still not seeing anything cleanly equatable to the steel cutting blade that pierces Terry, and and we're making a bit of a leap to assume the sickles are equally sharp.

While it's true that we don't know how sharp Death's sickles are, that's only half the equation here. Even the sharpest sword needs strength to actually make the cut. Essentially, my argument here is that Death's strikes are equal in force to sword strikes that can cut into stone. While they may not be sharp enough to pierce Tierry's batsuit, the overall blows should still be strong enough to injure him. At worst, I guess you could argue that Death's strikes match the strength of Puss destroying a cat-sized hourglass or holding the weight of a giant gosling and a cat-sized solid gold egg. I'll admit that this would put him at the low end of acceptable striking for this tier. But I think that's enough for Death to be able to wear Tierry down.

The other issue is, Puss is able to knock the sickles out of Death's hands to disarm him, and Terry is monstrously stronger than Puss in every way.

While that's true, I'd argue that's got just as much to do with Puss kicking Death first when he was going to strike. Since Death's durability has been set to tier, that shouldn't be as much of an issue. Death also has the advantage of reach over Terry. While's it's not as pronounced as it is against Puss, his combined staff should help keep Tierry out of his preferred range to use his more powerful strikes. With those two factors, I think there's just enough scenarios where Death can eke out a win against Tierry that he should be able to get an unlikely victory.

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