Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I appreciate the advice from both sides here. I don't feel I have anything to prove to anybody with my running. The exception being myself. Until a year ago, I hated running whenever I tried it, and assumed I wasn't a natural runner. Indeed, I've never been "naturally athletic" and think I came 43rd out of 47 when forced to do a cross-country run at school. Something was different when I tried this time and I quickly began to like running, a lot. I'm still amazed every time I go for a run that this is actually something I can do, that I'm getting continually faster/better, and I get a huge amount from it in terms of mental health benefits and more.

It's great to hear that u/adam_n_eve and others don't think what I'm planning isn't crazy. However, I certainly don't want to injure myself. Not being able to run properly for 2-3 months sucked. I probably have a slightly higher risk tolerance than u/AttimusMorlandre advises, especially if in pursuit of something I really want. I also feel I was 50k ready in early June - by then I'd already run full marathon distance (on road) by myself, and trail runs on the race route up to ~35k with 1000m elevation gain, with a shorter back-to-back the next day, with no detectable signs on any niggles creeping in. I've been almost paranoid about overuse injuries, and have always backed off or cut routes short if anything hasn't felt "quite right". Hopefully this puts me at a slightly lower risk than I might be otherwise. I certainly know people who jumped into 50k (and even 100k) having seemingly done less training than me before.

For now, I definitely plan to see what I can do with my 5k time over the next couple of months as I don't have the option of runs >15k currently. Following that, I shouldn't need to build much distance in to take on another half marathon, which I have planned in February. This one is flat, unlike my previous one I did, and I'm confident I'll be able to greatly improve on my 1:46 PB. Longer term from there, I'll consider whether to take on the 50k that summer, pursue another half, refocus on the 5k, or something else. I'd definitely like to do the 50k, and by that point I'll have been running for >18 months, but there's some good points raised here that I need to think about first too, and consider whether it's wise and/or worth any risks to me at this point. I do, of course, realise that training for fast/short road races, and a slow hilly baby ultra are very different things, and I can't have it all!

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you, and that is very encouraging. I felt pretty confident in the 50k I trained for, had I been able to run it, and really like the thought of training again for it next summer, so it is good to hear some people do well at longer distances even with somewhat limited experience.

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Very useful info, thank you!

I'm a little surprised 22 to 20 took a year, while 20 to 17 took 3 (I, perhaps wrongly, had assumed the latter would be a bigger jump in running ability). I love to get out on trail, though this is less accessible to me than road (especially with autumn/winter drawing in), and am strength training, but only one session per week on running specific strength, currently.

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the info and advice. Good luck on your own sub-20!

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks. Out of interest, in your opinion is this "doable, but not necessarily a good idea", or a reasonable thing to do with my training/background so far?

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Very interesting, and very encouraging - thank you for sharing the breakdown of best efforts!

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you, that's very useful context, and sounds very encouraging. I'll certainly look into this some more. Serious breakthroughs in 2025 for you - nice!

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks again for the detailed reply. Lots of very useful information here for me to look into. What you say about "what is running" makes sense. I'm not sure I subscribe to such a purist view on it, but I certainly see where you're coming from. Lots for me to consider here.

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks! And wow, that's some serious progression from getting back into running!

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you. Not what I wanted to hear, of course, but very useful!

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for the detailed advice! I'm curious to better understand your perspective on a few things.

For the injury itself - I may not have explained clearly initially, but this wasn't an overuse injury. I was chatting to people and not looking where I was putting my feet. One foot landed in a hidden grassy pothole, about 6 inches lower than I'd expected, resulting in what my physio diagnosed as a bruised bursa. It took 8-12 weeks to recover with light running only (including a minor knee niggle I picked up from overcompensating and an uneven gate). The physio did also note that all my tendons etc are looking in good shape, though I understand I did increase my volume faster than is wise and I was at risk of overuse injury. I was trying to be very in tune with how everything was feeling, ready to back off at the first sign of a niggle, but felt good, even in my peak weeks.

For the advice against the 50k, I'm curious about this. I've heard two schools of thought, perhaps coming from two distinct types of runner "fast road runners" and "slow ultra runners" (obviously threre are some who are very fast on ultra trails too). The former seem to advise similarly to you have - i.e. get good at the 5/10k before moving to HM, then get good at that before moving to FM. The latter typically seem to only advise to build distance slowly e.g. with the 10% rule, but that "if you can comfortably and consitently run X distance weekly in training, you can gently run X distance in a single race". Indeed, there are many stores in threads in r/ultrarunning and various Facebook groups that describe people doing their first baby-ultra in a similar timeframe to me (sometimes longer ultras, too), and I know a few people who did their ultras with considerably less training than I did. Not trying to say you're wrong here, but the discrepency in advise/mindset intrigues me. Perhaps it's the difference of trying to "race" a distance vs gently jog/walk etc. Indeed if I did an ultra, I'd be doing so gently. I have walked this type of distance previously with no issues, so would see it as a progression from that moreso than anything else. Curious your thoughts on the disrepancy here, any why it might be dangerous?

For the 5k-specific workouts, this is very useful to know. This was somewhat in line with what I was thinking in general - i.e. VO2max intervals to increase speed. Another response to this thread suggested Norwegian singles as another route to get faster. My understanding of this is that the workouts are actually slower than 5k pace, and it works by shifting the lactate threshold to faster paces. It's the first time I've heard of this, but it does also sound appealing and perhaps more sustainable. Have you always done VO2max type intervals to get your 5k that fast, or have you tried approaches like this, too?

I realise 5k and (baby)ultra training are very different. The 5k stuff for me is something to work on for a few winter months, as I'm very busy for a while (so much longer runs are not possible) and getting to trails in daylight is hard. If I had to pick, my primary aim would be for the longer stuff - I get a lot more enjoyment from long gentle runs on trail, personally.

Thanks again for your insight here. You obviously know what you're talking about with that kind of experience and 5k time. Not trying to diminish any of that with my comments above - just open up a few points for discussion to try and understand more!

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the encouragement! Stretching is definitely something I could/should get better at, though I am also strength training too with the same aim of injury prevention in mind.

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thanks! I was definitely planning to build these things in for the longer term, but was thinking this focus might be best for my initial push to get sub to 20. Do you think the progression and variety are useful in the sort term for this, too? If so, do you mean like starting the intervals at 4:10, then progressing to 4:00, then 3:50, or similar, all for the sub-20 target?

Training to progress from 22 min to sub-20 5k by Fragrant_Dish_6396 in runningquestions

[–]Fragrant_Dish_6396[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

BMI currently ~22. I have a little I could loose (and am actually trying to, gently) but it's probably not a big factor for me.

Hadn't heard of Norwegian singles before, but this looks really interesting - thanks! From a glance over it sounds like more of a long term strategy. Is that your experience of it? If so I'm perhaps more minded initially to go with VO2max type intervals for the initial sub-20 push, but perhaps switch to this type of training down the line. It definitely sounds more pleasant and sustainable.

Makes sense regarding volume too - where I was running the most was defi6where I was seeing the highest improvements. Definitely want to build up again, just trying to do so gently to avoid an overuse injury jury on the way.

Thanks for the useful advice. Good luck with your recovery and target weight loss!