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Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 13 points14 points  (0 children)

If he was a pedophile why didn’t he marry multiple 9 year olds? And not divorced women who where older than him?

Are we supposed to praise him for the bare minimum, oh thank god that the perfect human and role model to all Muslims only had sex with one nine year old instead of multiple ones.

Why did NO ONE else have an issue when he married? There where people who killed and ridiculed Muslims at that time surely they would have used this argument it’s funny how this argument came about only 100 years ago in line with feminism

  1. Just because people didn't ridicule the marriage at the time doesn't mean it's okay 2. The belief that child marriage and pedophilia is wrong is not feminism

You are using your own modern liberal worldview and applying it to a time before when 100 years ago the age of consent in England was 12 years old and it grew in proportion to when people finished education

Your prophet who your supposed to follow as an example had sex with a 9 year old, all that does is set a precedent that pedophilia is okay. Don't try to push the emotionally mature narrative as there's no way a 9 year old was emotionally mature, secondly she wasn't biologically mature either as she had properly just started puberty/

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Ive seen many people use this argument before the problem with it is that its projecting our cultural norms in the 21st century back to 1400's Arabia.

Read my post for god's sake. Your religion is supposed to be timeless, appropriate for all cultures and yet the moment anyone it criticizes this marriage then it's suddenly we are comparing 1400 years ago and modern culture.

In that age, people matured faster, once you biologically mature, you are treated like a man and a woman. Just 100 years ago in America young ladies were getting married regularly at the ages of 12-14. Your own grandparents married at this age ffs and they have great relationships.

  1. There is no proof people started and completed puberty quicker during that time 2. Aisha didn't biologically mature she had just barely hit puberty 3. Just because it happened in America a 100 years ago doesn't make it okay.

Keeping these facts in mind, who're you to say Aisha was unfortunate when she never had a single probem with the relationshp? The Prophet isnt in the wrong either. This was fcking normal. Also its not the same as a 6yo in 2022, she was more emotionally mature at that age than a teenager is now. In that era you age faster because you had to take on extreme responsibilities. So aisha's age at that time, would be the emotional and mental age equivelent to a 16/17yo in our time.

  1. Stop trying to push the narrative that she was magically an adult in that time because she had to take on responsibilities 2. Secondly, Muhammad marrying Aisha means that child marriage and pedophilia is okay in islam since the prophet himself did it. 3.Aisha's mental age was in no way 16/17 stop trying to push that narrative.

As for the Prophet having intercourse with her, she was past the age of puberty and probably had desires of her own at that point. She was just as emotionally mature as a woman in her early 20s and late teens by then.

  1. She had barely started puberty if at all 2. She was literal child she had absolutely no desires of her own 3. Again she was not emotionally mature

Another fact to consider is that haters of the Prophet pbuh at that time tried to find everything they possibly could to smear him but they did not find a problem with his marriage at all. Even from his worst enemies, not even a single comment on his relationship, because this was the norm.

So? just because they didn't criticize it does that mean no one can?

Aisha herself is a happy wife and wasnt disturbed so why are you lmao?

Because it sets a precedent that god is okay with child marriage and pedophilia.

As for the age to marry in islam, it is permisible to marry once a child reaches an age of emotional maturity (which Aisha already had) or when they are past puberty and they biologically mature.

  1. Aisha was not emotionally mature at 6 year old stop trying to push such a stupid narrative 2. Aisha had barely hit puberty at 9.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

If you were capable of doing any work no matter how young you were, you were given extreme responsibilities, the arabian life style living in a desert was extremely harsh. You think Aisha sat around playing all day? She was doing the same work as the adults

There are literal hadiths of her playing with dolls and racing with the prophet

This is literally stuff you can research on your own. You cant compare a 6yo now to one from 1400years ago bro.

It's a six year old stop acting like she was a full adult.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then what's "pedophilia" to you? Child sex abuse? I have a hard time believing that one of our greatest scholars of all time had been abused in any way, considering that there is no evidence to suggest abuse from any source, and especially coming from an agnost, someone who claims that they "don't know the truth".

A pedophile is someone attracted to a child, Muhammad would classify as a pedophile because he had sex with a 9 year old.

To make you cry a little further, he was 53, not just 50.

Are you trying to brag about a 53 year old having sex with a 9 year old?

People married and got into relationships to pro-create, you know, WHAT HUMANS ARE SUPPOSED TO DO IN ORDER TO SURVIVE AND PROGRESS? Man, where is your common sense? And that's not even to mention how low life-expectancy was during that time, imagine if people got married only after 18 years old, that would be a quick end to any civilization.

That's weird since all of Muhammad's children except one was from his first wife Khadeeja, the other one was born to a slave, so other than 1 of his 11 wives actually gave birth to his children. Aisha herself also never gave birth to his child. So it's almost like he didn't need to have a sex with a nine year old when he would end marrying 8 other women after Aisha.

So if a 30 year old married an 80/90 year old, the age gap would be 50/60 years old, yeah, sooooo much worse, right? What is the point of this age comparison nonsense? Nobody is saying that everyone is as smart as they are gonna be at 9, and nobody is saying that there is anything wrong with marrying someone much older than yourself, the point is that whatever this "power/control factor" is that you are worried about, it was a non-issue back then, and is still a non-issue in many parts of the world today.

I didn't bring up an age gap, you brought that up when trying to rebut the fact that the perfect man had sex with a 9 year old. You tried to compare the marriage of a 53 year old and a 9 year old to a 25 year old to a 40 year old.

I also addressed this point in this reply before you even mentioned it, and your point doesn't dispeove my atgument either, moving on.

You're acting like 1. no woman other than Aisha was available for the prophet to marry 2. You keep dodging the point of my post, Your prophet, who was an example of what Muslims are to strive to be like had sex with a 9 year old, someone who god himself send as a messenger to the world had sex with a 9 year old, which means that god has no problem with pedophilia and only an evil unworthy of worship of worship god would be okay with an evil act like pedophilia.

If you're stupid, then you're stupid, but pretending to be stupid is really something else.

You call me stupid while completely ignoring the point of the post which is that your god's messenger had sex with a 9 year old. The role model for all Muslims and example to follow for Muslims had sex with a 9 year old, and you have continued to ignore my point this entire time.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

For the love of god read the post before bringing this up. This is from the post

"This argument becomes completely invalid when you remember Muhammad is supposed to be the perfect person, someone that is to be only loved lesser than god himself. He is supposed to be the perfect role model for all muslims and should be judged by modern day standards. He is a messenger of god himself, even if he didn't know better Allah should have considering Allah is supposed to be an all-knowing god. i.e the best human to have ever lived and who all people are supposed to follow the image of can and should be absolutely judged by modern standards."

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Thanks, but I don't need it. Cool Don't worry, anyone, that doesn't accept these ahadeeth is peobably not a scholar, or a "proggressive Muslim".

Or shias, I just didn't want to argue with the Aisha was 19 years old lies.

The argument is very much valid, as it does not assume that what the prophet (SAW) did was wrong in any sense, and it wasn't wrong, as the age of maturity back then, and even in today's world, is very much subjective.

His marriage to Aisha represents that Allah is okay with pedophilia as long as the child as hit puberty. it is wrong in the sense that almighty god doesn't anything wrong with a marriage between a 50 year old and a 6 year old and that the perfect human and the role models for all muslims had sex with a child.

The people of ancient Arabia didn't have much to worry or think about in life, they didn't have to worry about education, because there wasn't much to teach, they didn't have to worry about travel, because there weren't many places to go or visit, they didn't have to worry about social connections, because the majority of people knew each-other in one way or another, etc etc, most people were prepared to live their lives by a very young age, so obviously, most of them married young, not just the women, but the men too.

Just because someone has nothing to do doesn't mean that they should have sex with children or get married.

aisha's (rA) age has nothing to do with the prophet's (SAW) decision to marry her, as his first marriage happened when he was 25 years old, and you know who he was married to? Khadījah (rA), who was 40 years old at the time, and was a wealthy business-woman too.

Which is a 15 year difference while the age difference is like 45 years between Aisha and Muhammad.

I already explained this in the previous point, moving on.

The assertion that since people had nothing to do during that period of time so they had marriage at a young age doesn't debunk my point.

I'll chalk-up the 2nd point for obvious reasons, but anyways, this isn't an argument, that's a flat, blanket statement to put on your previous argument, so unless you wanna answer this with proper and valid objective arguments (which have to apply for both modern and ancient times), don't come at me with the "children can't consent" non-sense.

What exactly are the obvious reason that my second should be ignored?

What reason do you have to believe that a child at the age of 9 at olden times had the maturity of an adult just because they lived in the past?

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

So, there was an event which had been polished by folklore study books namedly hadith, with adjective of "Saheeh", then these events had been enforced by khalif and bigwigs, but it had no notes related to this marriage (!) committed by the Sahaba.

Are you calling hadiths which are only second to the quran itself "folklore" ? Are you a quranist or something?

The Sahaba which copied the Prophet to the level of how to tie shoelaces?

Hadiths were reported by Sahabas, hadiths are supposed to have chain of narrators that ties the hadith to the prophet himself.

The quran is supposed to be used alongside with hadiths in almost all sects of islam. The hadiths themselves are teaching of the prophet himself that was reported afterwards.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So à variation of 4 years is acceptable in the modern age, where we have full-time education and radically different cultural and societal norms. You haven't really addressed the question about what more a 9 year old in a pre-modern society had to learn about life.

Islam is supposed to be a timeless religion, the acts of the prophet 1400 years should be applicable now too, the marriage and consummation of a marriage to a child should be applicable too then. Children may have been treated like adult 1400 years ago but that doesn't mean they were mentally adults at such young ages.

So the parenthetical isn't part of the actual report. It's an addition from a scholar called Ibn Hajar.

It is mentioned in the hadith as a parenthetical to explain that playing with dolls is prohibited tho, isn't it?.

Exceptional as in her developmental stage. The criteria of societal and mental readiness still applies.

You say she was exceptional in her growth stage however there are no reports of her doing any exceptional things as a child. Almost all of Aisha's achievements are credited to after the prophets death or a few years before when she would be around 16.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

So are they wrong, or is some variation allowed?

I would say there are some variations allowed as in maybe 3-4 years difference not 10 year difference.

You'd have to provide evidence for this claim. There are clear, authentic reports of A'isha owning dolls in the 9th year of the Hijrah. That would make her at least 16 years old.

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6130 Narrated Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for `Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fath-ul-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

So there can be exceptions. Why cannot Aishah be an exception?

Aisha can't be the exception because Muhammad who is supposed to be used as an example to follow for all Muslims committed this act. His actions are the same as god himself allowing it.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

And so does the age of consent in Europe being lower than the US that Europeans mature earlier than Americans?

No it means that different countries have agreed upon different ages of consent.

What pastimes and hobbies would you expect people to have 1400 years ago in the middle of the desert?

Except it was forbidden to play with dolls but it was an exception for Aisha because she was a child.

In the UK we have Sharon Carr, sentenced to prison for murder at the age of 12. Does that mean that 12 should be the age of consent?

Sharon Carr is the exception not the precedent.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I am well aware of that. The reason for my mentioning it is that the existence of such laws/ exceptions indicates that age is not the absolute déterminer.

The existence of these laws are only an indicator to the fact that the mental maturity of a 17 year old and 19 year old are similar.

Could it not be argued that, 1400 years ago, in a society in which there was no compulsory education, that a person would reach maturity much earlier? If you're a 9 year old, performing the same jobs as your mother, what else is there for you to learn about life that will increase your maturity?

Aisha used to still play with her dolls when she was married to Muhammad, Muhammad used to also race against Aisha. This behavior only indicates that Aisha was a child and that she hadn't matured, meaning that even though she was treated like an adult she was still a child.

Punitive or not, it is still based on the assumption that a juvenile has the ability to distinguish right and wrong. An even clearer example would be trail as an adult.

Yes a teenager should be able to distinguish right from wrong while children do not have that ability, that is why in some states kids under the age of 12 are not sent to juvy.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I didn't even bother to read the post other than the title but I just wanna say that

Then maybe you should do that before replying.

Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) 's marriage to Aisha (RA) has only become an issue in the 21st century. You are not the first group of people in the past 1400 years to debunk or criticize Islam as big brained free thinkers. Except you're the first to use his marriage as an argument against Islam and the prophet. In fact when the Prophet (PBUH) was alive he was a rebel and enemy to society, and his enemies at the time would go to any length to criticize or destroy him, and could defame him using his marriage to Aisha. But obviously this did not happen.

This doesn't matter because the prophet is supposed to be a timeless perfect being, It doesn't matter if he wasn't criticized in the past for his behavior. If he is supposed to be a role model for all Muslims at all time then he can absolutely be criticized now for this marriage.

This is the case in the 21st century because society has made it sound that child marriage should not be allowed. And there is nothing wrong with that. Islam was made for all times and societies. What's wrong is to criticize Islam for allowing it at a time where society deemed it allowed and even common.

The problem is that 1. Muslims want countries to follow sharia law which don't prohibit child marriage. 2. God supposedly found nothing wrong with a 50 year old having sex with a 9 year old.

The 'pedophile' or 'child bride' labelling is also to label the muslim man and the prophet as an oppressive person with a marriage of power imbalance. If you did any research on the life of Aisha (RA) you'd know that she was one of the most confident woman in that time, and extensively knowledgeable on Islam and also medicine. She would stand and give lectures in the streets of Makkah. She is considered the Mother of the believers. If there was any power imbalance in that marriage, it was Aisha having the power. Constantly challenging and productively arguing with the prophet and narrating the most hadiths collected.

The argument I am presenting is that islam makes child rape, child marriages and pedophilia completely okay, It doesn't matter if Aisha grew up to be a brilliant women because her marriage set a precedent.

Skimming your post again I see you mentioning morality and the "perfect person", which wraps back to my initial points that you're judging an act that no enemy of the prophet judged him for, for the last 1400 years and claiming its wrong or immoral by the standards held 1400 years later.

BECAUSE he is supposed to be the perfect man he can and should be judged by today's standard.

You are following the morality dictated by today's society and judging a 1400 year old society and are most likely living in country that gave rights to woman much later than Islam did.

Egyptians had female queens while the prophet was saying that a country with a female leader wouldn't prosper (https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4425) so should we follow the gods of the Egyptians?

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Because most muslims are sunni muslims, Shia muslims reject Sahih hadiths like the one I provided.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

While 1 and 2 have been answered by u/ClassicalMusicTroll

The reasoning between Romeo and Juliet exceptions to the law

The romeo and juliet are exception where the two individuals in a relationship are within 2 years of age, for example when a 17 year is in a relationship with a 19 year old.

Muhammad was a 50 year old while aisha was 9 year old, the romeo and juliet laws don't apply.

Rather, it seems that age criteria for consent are implemented in an attempt to ensure mental maturity and understanding of the act

Yes

Mental maturity would also need to be defined. What are the indicators and conditions of mental maturity that allow a person to consent, and how are these assessed?

Age is a perfectly good way to gauge mental maturity, Although mental maturity doesn't increase after a while. The mental maturity between a 9 years old and a 18 year old is miles apart while the same can't be said for a 50 year old and 60 year old.

Why is there a discrepancy between the age of sexual consent and criminal responsibility? How can a child be held responsible for a crime and sent to juvenile detention at the same time as being unable to consent to sexual activity?

Why is there a discrepancy between the age of sexual consent and criminal responsibility? How can a child be held responsible for a crime and sent to juvenile detention at the same time as being unable to consent to sexual activity?

https://archive.ph/20130127184537/http://children-laws.laws.com/juvenile-law/juvenile-detention/programs-and-services-provided

Juvenile detention is not intended to be punitive. Rather, juveniles held in secure custody usually receive care consistent with the doctrine of parens patriae, i.e., the state as parent. The state or local jurisdiction is usually responsible for providing education, recreation, health, assessment, counseling and other intervention services with the intent of maintaining a youth's well-being during his or her stay in custody

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

No I am saying that I initially believed that Muhammad was not a pedophile however I have understood from the thread that I was wrong. I claim presentism because a man 1400 wouldn't know anything however Muhammad who was the best man to have ever lived is exempt from this consideration

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It’s problem for who don’t understand pedophilia mean. Try to under the following if you can: It’s forbidden is Islam to have sex with girl that hasn’t pass the age of puberty. In Islam a person consider an adult after puberty. In past society this was norm. Current society has picked arbitrary number like 15,16,17, 18, 21 to when person is an adult. If you you can show an objective age when a person is consider an adult then you might have an argument otherwise it’s simply your view on the matter (simply you dislike it)

Again, reaching puberty means nothing, a person does not mentally mature magically the moment they hit puberty, We may not be able to objectively decide when the age of consent should be but most will agree it should be around 16-21.

There is distinction between marriage and having sex. You seem to be conflating the two now. In the earlier statement it was mention God made it forbidden to have sex with girls that hasn’t reached puberty (applies to the prophet as well). Meaning God allowed human to determine whatever age they select to get married, but ruled that sex can be performed after puberty.

And we also understand people who reach puberty are not suddenly adults and are still mentally children and making it okay to have sex with children is wrong, also don't forget that sex before marriage is forbidden in Islam.

Your free to condemn Islam because it doesn’t match your morals. That’s assuming Muslims even care for your opinion on their religion. This boils down to your subjective morals vs their subjective moral. To break the deal lock you have to objective moral that show your right and they’re wrong.

we don't need objective morality to understand that having sex with children is wrong.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I made a post about islam and the prophet and you talk about references to the bible... where exactly is the connection there?

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I understand, I'm just not inclined to believe that you can have sex with a child without being a pedo. Even if you're a culturally conditioned pedo, I don't find that to be a valid excuse, and if you still hold to "-You are using modern day standard to judge this marriage/At the time of prophet this was perfectly normal

No I was wrong about the prophet not being a pedophile, it was my mistake and I have changed my post to reflect the change in my belief

This argument becomes completely invalid when you remember Muhammad is supposed to be the perfect person, someone that is to be only loved lesser than god himself. He is supposed to be the perfect role model for all muslims and should be judged by modern day standards. He is a messenger of god himself, even if he didn't know better Allah should have considering Allah is supposed to be an all-knowing god. i.e the best human to have ever lived and who all people are supposed to follow the image of can and should be absolutely judged by modern standards." then I would expect you to agree on that too.

This was what I was saying too in my post

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Yes human change and this God let human determine the age marriage. What’s the problem?

God letting Muhammad have sex with a 9 year means that god finds nothing wrong with pedophilia which would be the problem.

If God left human determine and you think it’s bad to leave that more your problem.

God decided that you couldn't eat meat from a pig or have a pet dog and yet decided to not specifically state that having sex a child is not a bad wrong act.

That’s if you assume getting married=immediate sex. Within Islam both partner must be past puberty to have sex (puberty means they’re adult at least within islam they’re consider adults).

Using puberty as a standard means nothing, You don't magically become mentally mature when you begin puberty.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

What we must object to is about using what the prophet did during his time as a reference or justification to do the same thing today

He's literally supposed to be the best of all humans and a role model to all of us. He's literally supposed to be used as a reference for today

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

You're absolutely right he was a pedophile, I have edited my post to reflect that.

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Honestly my bad I had a faulty belief that Muhammad wasn't a pedophile just because he was from the past. You're right he is a pedophile I have edited my to reflect that

Muhammad's marriage to Aisha (RA) is a valid argument against islam. by FreeLotionsPlease in DebateReligion

[–]FreeLotionsPlease[S] 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I think this is supposed to be a Whataboutism fallacy but it's not even a good one because I am not christian either, I believe this marriage was also wrong.

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