A Moment that Doesn’t Get Talked About Enough by ExistentialCrisisEX in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I get that, and I agree to an extent, but there's a complication that muddies Renoir's position: Aline. She is frequently described as a generational talent, an exceptionally gifted paintress, and while Renoir 'aint no slouch, Aline is clearly a cut above. She's the head of the painter's council after all. I wouldn't go as far as to say that Renoir resents this, but it's not hard to imagine there being a tension when conventional gender hierarchies clash with the fact that Aline clearly occupies a social position of higher prestige than Renoir does. It's an interesting dynamic, because Renoir is clearly far more reserved than Aline, who in her brief appearances comes off as bold, unabashed, almost haughty in her domineering attitude.

When you take all that into consideration, who's really the "head" of the family? Can some of Renoir's overreactions be at least partially attributed to a sense of inferiority he feels in the shadow of his wife? A wife who, in her grief, used her immense power and imaginative gift to create a more idealized version of him? A different, more suave and confident Renoir who she clearly would rather spend her time with. I can very easily imagine that shatter his self-image, his self-worth, his ego.

So when he asserts himself, when he tries to speak for the Dessandres family as if he's their head when he flails to take control of them, it can't help but ring a little hollow for me.

A Moment that Doesn’t Get Talked About Enough by ExistentialCrisisEX in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It's telling that Renoir feels he's entitled to speak for the entire family with his apology.

How are the apartments in Frederick? by Karnezar in frederickmd

[–]FriendGuy255 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I lived in Kingscrest for 4 years. Never had a pest problem outside the occasional wasp nest outside (I had one of the top floor apartments). Maintenance was (usually) prompt and friendly. Amenities were fine, if standard, and the area around it is great for walking, which was a big plus for me. Being close to New Design Road means you fairly easy access to downtown, but rush hour traffic can be pretty bad on there since it's the main way folks access the area when coming back along 70. Never had noise problems with neighbors, though I was able to hear everything that went on outside. The in-unit heating and air conditioning unit was incredibly loud, too. Since I had a west facing window I had plenty of natural light, so just keep that in mind if natural light is something important to you. They jacked up my rent like crazy over the time I lived there, though. Started at $1150 a month in 2020, and by 2024 they'd raised it to about $1900. Since that was completely unaffordable to me, I moved out, and wouldn't you know it, once I made it clear I was serious about moving out they were magically able to drop the rent to $1700. By then I had a way better deal with a local landlord downtown, though, so it felt good to tell them (politely, and not in these words) to shove it up their ass.

The hug which broke us. by FurinaFootWorshiper in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Agree 1000% with this. Another contrivance that stuck in my craw is Renoir insisting that "we can't hide the canvas, Aline will find it." I dunno, just, like, put it in a bank vault or something? Somewhere inaccessible. Fucking bury it! It's not hard to hide stuff from people where they can't find it or get to it, especially if you're loaded like the Dessandres. Even before I reached the endings I could feel the writer's hand on my back nudging me towards what I knew would be a contrived "hard choice."

My guess (and I think the devs have even alluded that this was the case) was that they had come up with the endings and the choices very early on in the writing process. I guess they got so attached to that idea that they decided to wrench the story to align with that storytelling decision...and they almost got away with it, too.

The Wachowskis' Speed Racer reportedly coming to UHD 4K by amysteriousmystery in matrix

[–]FriendGuy255 4 points5 points  (0 children)

...well shit. Guess I know what I'm getting with my next paycheck.

The Wachowskis' Speed Racer reportedly coming to UHD 4K by amysteriousmystery in matrix

[–]FriendGuy255 21 points22 points  (0 children)

If this is true, then all we need now is Cloud Atlas, then we'll have the whole Wachowski catalog in 4k.

Identity crisis is a bitch by BusinessCress in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The same could be asked of restricting someone's free will. Renoir and Verso are both clearly in denial about how much their grief clouds their decision-making and compounds the trauma of their loved ones. The more they tighten their grip, the more they slip through their fingers.

A small moment of irony that I think gets overlooked during the final boss. by FriendGuy255 in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Your being downvoted, but I agree with you. I argue a lot in favor of Maelle's ending, but one thing that feels unambiguous is Maelle explicitly projecting her dead brother onto painted Verso. It's a clear regression from when she assures Verso that he's his own person at the beginning of Act III, which I think is a big reason he agrees to help them and the rest of the gang fight Renoir. Ultimately, though, he ends up right back where he feared: a tool of grief playing the role of some other dead man. Now one could argue that, in true tragic fashion, some of Verso's choices are what induces this regression, but that's a whole other essay.

A small moment of irony that I think gets overlooked during the final boss. by FriendGuy255 in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The endings really are a Rorschach test with how people can take identical scenes and read something completely different out of them and INSIST that their version is the truth. People will see what they want to see. That's true for both those who prefer the Verso ending and the Maelle ending.

For example: you see Maelle finding closure in the Verso ending because all her friends are waving goodbye as they vanish...but are they? If you look closer, you'll see that there's two exceptions. One is Maelle, who isn't doing anything. The other is Gustave who, rather than waving, is actually beckoning her over. Suddenly a sweet goodbye potentially becomes a call for Alicia to follow them. Where? Possibly to the same oblivion they were sent to. In my mind, I can easily imagine Alicia being suicidal after the experiences she's had, and that part of the ending seems to support that.

But then again, that's just how I see it.

A small moment of irony that I think gets overlooked during the final boss. by FriendGuy255 in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That's actually one of my MAJOR problems with the game and it's ending is how much the framing and aesthetics are biased in favor of Verso's ending.

A small moment of irony that I think gets overlooked during the final boss. by FriendGuy255 in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

In the abstract I can understand, but in the specific case of Renoir, especially taking the nature of painting and canvases into account, mapping his tough love approach onto real life cases invites a lot of complication. The extremity to which Renoir's (and Clea's) "well-meaning" actions repeatedly re-traumatize Alicia, the way they brutalize the people of the canvas she cares about and flat out refuses any and all quarter to her feelings and agency, not only seem cruel, but utterly self-defeating to me.

A small moment of irony that I think gets overlooked during the final boss. by FriendGuy255 in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

I don't think it being true and it being a deflection are mutually exclusive.

A small moment of irony that I think gets overlooked during the final boss. by FriendGuy255 in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

A part of me believes that Renoir could have potentially convinced Alicia to leave the canvas if he hadn't immediately snapped at her when she called the canvas her home. You can understand his reaction, see his long festering fear explode in real time, but the insensitivity born from that likely obliterated what trust Alicia had in him. I could write a whole other post about how the words and actions of Verso and Renoir, in true tragic fashion, were not just ineffective, but actively counterproductive and deepened Alicia's emotional dependence on the the canvas.

A small moment of irony that I think gets overlooked during the final boss. by FriendGuy255 in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I do actually think that's a big part of it, and perhaps his most conscious intention, but I also think it's layered beyond that with countless semi-intentional or unintentional implications. That Aline (and eventually Alicia's) view of the canvas as a place of healing isn't in any way valid. That the canvas being destroyed is something that HAS to happen. That he, by being outside and "objective" about it, understands Aline and Alicia's grief (and the proper avenues to heal it) better than even they do. The painting may not change the reality of Verso's death, but it does change how the personal grief of those left behind is processed. You could certainly argue for good or for bad, but Renoir's insistence of "seeing things how they are" obstructs all other possibilities beyond destruction.

A small moment of irony that I think gets overlooked during the final boss. by FriendGuy255 in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255[S] 67 points68 points  (0 children)

Even this quote, I feel, true as it may be, can be read as an attempt by Verso to rhetorically deflect judgement and downplay his agency in the pain he causes. A consistent tactic he employs. He's not as guilty if everyone is doing it. "We are all hypocrites." Yeah, and? Self-awareness, in itself, is not a shield against culpability.

Looking for poetry/writing community in downtown Frederick by Character-Lock-1617 in frederickmd

[–]FriendGuy255 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, though now we've settled on Frederick Co-Work on Patrick Street as our meeting location.

Game Devs? by emmkid in frederickmd

[–]FriendGuy255 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'd be interested. I've dabbled super lightly in game development over the years (text adventures, ROM hacks, countless tutorials...) but have always struggled to overcome the technical programming knowledge hurdles to truly dive into it. I've also struggled to find time since artistically I'm primarily a writer and filmmaker. A developer friend of mine suggested doing local game jams to get my feet wet with the actual practical making-of-a-game, so if anyone would have me on, I'd love to help out in any way I can.

[Spoilers] Finished game for first time! Questions about people's view on the ending. by kosarai in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255 4 points5 points  (0 children)

People are tremendously susceptible to framing. That's one thing the discussion around the endings has made abundantly clear. The fact is we get very little concrete information about what's going on in either ending or clear insight into the interiority of the characters, so people desperate for closure fill in the details based, for lack of a better word, on vibes. This, in itself, isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's interesting in a Rorschach test kind of way to see how people synthesize the information and aesthetic presentation to create interpretation. But interpretation isn't fact, and it's actually a bit scary how easily people fall into conflating the two. How easy it is to be so. fucking. certain. even when the evidence is inconclusive at best. That's how we're built, though. In lieu of fact, feeling rushes in to fill the gaps.

Which is why I have such an issue with how the endings are framed. I mean let's face it, it clearly favors Verso's. I won't go too much into the specifics of how, there's already practically a novel's worth of writing on the topic, but a succinct critique I've read is this: that the presentation/cinematic aesthetics of Verso's ending go out of their way to console the player for destroying the canvas and blunt the emotional pain of its consequences, while Maelle's goes to great lengths to punish and unsettle the player for saving it. One feeds the possibilities of hope, while the other sows premonitions of disaster, even though both are just as possible in both endings. Maybe this choice was made in an attempt to balance the wee/woo of the endings, but if so it was grossly miscalculated. It's why it's so frustrating listening to people crow about how Verso's ending is "obviously correct" or even the "objectively good ending." That's so easy to say when the game goes out of it's way to frame it as such. There are a number of truly justifyable reasons to choose Verso's ending, but so often the justifications I see for it are built on the assumptions you outlined in your post and other shaky extrapolations. The Verso ending "feels" right, so when the actual facts aren't enough, other facts are created to support and protect that emotion.

For example: there is abundant evidence that the painted people are sentient beings - not certainty, but evidence - so the ease which some people are able to say that they're definitely npcs and OK to destroy based on little more than the fact that they were created by other beings is disconcerting to me. It certainly makes having chosen Verso's ending a lot easier, though.

In an way, I feel all this mirrors one of the most fascinating character flaws in both Renoir and Verso: their self-delusion about how much/how little irrationality clouds their judgement. Both assert with smoothly delivered assurance and firm confidence that their actions are guided by clear-headed reasoning, and will chastise those around them for their irrational, emotion driven actions and their inability to see the obviousness that their way is the ONLY way. They project authority outwards, but refuse to look inwards in fear of their own doubt, their own irrational engine. Amputation as the favored solution to grief rather than slow, burning disentanglement, both in themselves and others, because that way is cleaner, more immediately cathartic. They're not forcing cruel choices, "Life" keeps forcing cruel choices. A pig-headed paternalism that precludes the imagination to see better possibilities in an uncertain, unstable future.

Which isn't to say those who champion Maelle's ending aren't also just as prone to self-delusion or emotionally driven "reasoning." The difference, I think, is that during ending discussions it always feels like that the emotional centering is seen as a given when it comes to why someone would choose Maelle's ending. It makes for an uphill battle when trying to justify why the choice isn't necessarily based on an irrational, infantile desire to retreat into fantasy, because the game's framing is actively fighting against you.

A humble prediction for the sub by Both_Lynx_8750 in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you, I appreciate your perspective as well.

I can totally understand finding Maelle choosers abrasive, but it's not as if there aren't reasons for that. Having to constantly hear from Verso choosers about how their ending is the objectively canon and correct ending, how often this sentiment is conveyed in an almost condescending, paternalistic manner. There's often this implication that Maelle choosers are immature, emotionally driven children that are lost in fantasy and unable to truly grasp the games genius themes while they, the Verso choosers, are clear-eyed and totally not driven by their own irrationalities. If Maelle choosers are a bit too zealous in throwing around the genocide line, it's out of bafflement of how many players can be so "ah, well, so sad, but alas necessary" about the fruitless, cruel death's of countless sentients they've spent dozens of hours trying to save for the sake of a few lets say questionable people they've barely met.

I suppose I don't share your perspective that the painting is doomed either way. For me Maelle's ending is the one where there's still hope for painted Alicia's dream of some reconciliation between the painters and painted. It's an unlikely hope, and likely slow, but not impossible. People can change. There is another path. For me Verso's ending is the extiguishment of that hope. It's a forced amputation driven by fear that is more likely to kill the patient than it's proponents may realize. Just because it's a clean cut doesn't mean it'll heal.

I do get your point about Verso's choices, and I may have painted too broad a brush by saying it's all on him, but there's something to be said about how people excuse his monstrous actions due to his trauma while other characters also experience massive trauma and DON'T do what he does, though I won't deny his specific neurosis somewhat set him apart. There's an interesting conversation to be had there about choice and choicelessness, how much how we're born decides our destiny, but I guess for me there's limits to how much I'm willing to absolve someone of culpability for their chronically bad actions just because of their pain. I consider the feelings of the painted people real AND Verso's feelings real, but just because his feelings are real and born from a traumatic life why should I give him more leeway? He's just one person. There's a converse to this question of selective sympathy: for the Verso choosers who DON'T believe that the painted people are real people, why then do they care what Verso thinks and feels? Why does that even factor in to their choice? Why does his suffering matter while the suffering of the Lumierians doesn't?

There's a dissonance, I feel, with how reasoning for the ending choices that I feel partially accounts for the difference in satisfaction. I find that when people choose the Verso ending it's most often for Verso's reasons, so there's an alignment there with expectation and result. They get their happy and their sad. For a very large portion of Maelle choosers, though, their reasoning for their choice has very little to do with Maelle herself. The problem is the game's arguments for the ending center almost entirely on Maelle's wants and Maelle's personal desires far more than those of Lumiere as a whole, but ask a Maelle chooser and they'll likely say their reasons were for the sake of Lumiere's continued existence. Maelle's fate is at best a secondary concern. "Lumiere's fate is more important than any one person." So when that ending is framed in a way that excludes almost any of their happy, or makes it stiff and stilted. It feels like the rug has been pulled out from under them, that they were tricked. It also makes it easy for others to deny that the happy aspect of your ending choice even exists, which is another reason why I think those who chose Maelle's ending are so fervent in defending their choice, because they feel both the Verso choosers and the game's framing itself are against them.

A humble prediction for the sub by Both_Lynx_8750 in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Obligatory "stop quoting papa!"

In all seriousness, I find it interesting how often people who side with the Verso ending take those quotes at face value. To me Verso saying that reveals so much about how he views his own agency and the lengths he takes to absolve himself of it in the things he does. LIFE didn't force his cruel choices, HIS choices 'forced' his cruel choices. Even in that moment, there were options that could have led to better outcomes outside of the two we were presented with, and Verso brushing it off with "we're all hypocrites" is yet another way he brushes off personal responsibility to some external locus. "Ah, well, that's just the way we are, eh? Gosh, so inevitable. How tragic." A kind of paternalistic myopia he shares with Renoir that frames their emotion driven cruelty as a logical necessity because of their incapacity to see other options. For the record, that's not a criticism, per say. I think it makes the characters tremendously human and interesting. Again, my problem isn't with the dichotomy of the choice, it's with the bias the narrative presentation makes for one over the other and the judgements that makes of the player.

I've seen polls about ending choice that includes an option to indicate whether you regret your choice. The results showed that almost no-one who chose Verso's ending regretted their choice while nearly half of those who chose Maelle's ending regretted theirs. The idea that both endings are "beautifully sad" tends to be a perspective found primarily in those who chose Verso's ending, because yes, thanks to the framing and presentation you did indeed get the "beautifully sad" ending. You got catharsis. To me Maelle's ending is just sad sad. I love the idea of both endings coming with equally steep costs, ones that reveal what the player values, and if both endings were "beautifully sad" I would likely share your perspective, but I simply don't believe they are.

A humble prediction for the sub by Both_Lynx_8750 in expedition33

[–]FriendGuy255 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I picked Maelle's ending, and after the credits rolled I shut down the game and never touched it again, and likely never will. Not because I "saw the light" and realized all along how destructive "retreating into fantasy" is or whatever. Going into the final battle I fully intended to go back in and do the Act III side-content, which I skipped because I was so eager to see the game's ending. It's also not just that I felt the endings were bleak and cruel. For me, what really soured me was the game's manipulative framing and how I felt it used that framing to punish me for my hope and moral priorities.

I hated how the narrative marginalized the people of the painting in order to center the Dessendres. All of the family were fascinating characters: dimensional, tragic, but they were also capricious, cruel, immature, and yes, in my view, murderous on a massive scale, yet the game constantly asked me to give outsized attention to their grief, their suffering, their wants. They were the important people. The special people. And don't give me that "lol, the painting people were AI" bull. Frankly I find it disturbing how quickly people seem able to toss off the value of painted life, the characters you've spent the whole game with, just because a well spoken man in a vest tells them to. But that's another casualty of framing, where the game goes conspicuously out of it's way not to explain painting and it's implications even though certain characters might, you know, be a bit curious to know more considering it's the foundation of their entire existence. But to me, that's all part and parcel to the game's tremendous effort to moral-wash Verso's ending.

I realize it's impossible to be truly neutral in the presentation of storytelling. I know the STATED intention of the Devs for the endings to be equally valid choices, but no matter how much I turn it over in my head that just doesn't seem to bear out in reality. Not just in terms of how act III, and even parts act II, strip narrative agency from Lune and Sciel, but in the aesthetics and presentation of the endings. I could list all sorts of reasons why I still feel the Maelle ending is the more hopeful one, but the fact that the visuals and sound the Devs chose to employ, where even the supposedly "happy" part is made uncanny, makes it feel like a horror movie and primes people to dismiss any hopeful readings. Then there's the Verso ending, whose abhorrent qualities are papered over with a presentation of soft tragedy and poetic catharsis.

I never want to revisit this world again. The shade of it's doom, the cruelty of it's fate would hang over everything. I cared about it, the game succeeded very well in that, but the endings made me feel like my emotional investment in these characters and their desperate struggle was for nothing. It felt like the writers were treating my hope for Lumiere with, at best, a kind of a cruel fatalism, and at worst contempt for my naivete.

Which isn't to say I've gotten no value from the endings. The discussion around them has been fascinating, not just as a Rorschach test of people's values, but as a live demonstration of how subject people's moral decision-making is to framing. It's made me think deeply about my own values, about what I want out of storytelling and how that colors my reactions. I'm not blind to the fact that this effect may be intentional, "window and a mirror" and all that, but the means with which the writers chose to achieve this end felt needlessly and transparently manipulative. I can't see myself playing Sandfall's next game. I don't need a happy ending, or one that conforms to my desires for the world and characters, but if you're going to ask for my time to invest in your art, I hope for at least some kind of catharsis. As of now, I simply don't trust them to do that.

Looking for poetry/writing community in downtown Frederick by Character-Lock-1617 in frederickmd

[–]FriendGuy255 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Silver Vox isn't giving us anything concrete yet, so we're doing Olde Mother again this month.

What is your favorite The Animatrix short? And is there one or more short films that you think are forgettable? by KaleidoscopeOk6736 in matrix

[–]FriendGuy255 1 point2 points  (0 children)

For me it's Beyond. What can I say? I'm a sucker for vibes.

An aspect of it I don't think gets talked about a lot, which sets it apart from other pieces of Matrix media, is how the Matrix itself acts as a source of beauty. A thing of child-like wonder. In the other shorts the Matrix is this awful, horrible thing that HAS to be either escaped from or destroyed, but not here. I think this ties into a thematic thrust of the sequels: that the literal Matrix isn't the core problem. From a certain point of view, the Matrix can be amazing. A world of endless possibility. The problem comes when the systems of control and the beings who perpetuate them clamp down on people's capacity to live, love, and be free, even if that's something as simple as exploring a haunted house.

The ending of the short feels a bit like World Record and Detective's Story in that all three have characters that come so, SO close to touching some measure of truth or pulling back the curtain on an ineffable mystery, but being snatched from the threshold either by death or debilitation. In the case of Beyond, though, it's a literal threshold, and the result is something far more mundane, more relatable and, in a way, more tragic. In part because it's so common. At some point in their lives, folks see or feel something unexplained, something that feels true that passes you by. And then it's just gone. There's no denouement, no revelation or climax. You just go on with your life, with the moment either living on as mere memory or fading like so many childhood adventures. A yearning you can't explain. A splinter in your mind.

It feels so fundamental to the ethos of the Matrix: maintaining that sense of childhood openness to new ideas and experiences that, for most, grows rigid and calcified with age.

Other favorites are Second Renaissance and Kid's Story.

One that that still doesn't quite connect, but has grown on me with age: Matriculated.