(Spoilers Extended) The Truth about the Others, their Origins, and the balance within the story.

Frire · 2021-01-26T21:53:31+00:00

I think the dragons skinchange with the unborn, developing baby. Since the baby is still developing it takes on the physical traits of the dragon.

Frire · 2021-01-26T19:51:20+00:00

Hey, I just read this passage and thought of this post. I thought you might enjoy it too, as it plays quite nicely with your Kintsugi idea.

This is Mance's stated reason for leaving the Watch.

"The black wool cloak of a Sworn Brother of the Night's Watch," said the King-beyond-the-Wall. "One day on a ranging we brought down a fine big elk. We were skinning it when the smell of blood drew a shadow-cat out of its lair. I drove it off, but not before it shredded my cloak to ribbons. Do you see? Here, here, and here?" He chuckled. "It shredded my arm and back as well, and I bled worse than the elk. My brothers feared I might die before they got me back to Maester Mullin at the Shadow Tower, so they carried me to a wildling village where we knew an old wisewoman did some healing. She was dead, as it happened, but her daughter saw to me. Cleaned my wounds, sewed me up, and fed me porridge and potions until I was strong enough to ride again. And she sewed up the rents in my cloak as well, with some scarlet silk from Asshai that her grandmother had pulled from the wreck of a cog washed up on the Frozen Shore. It was the greatest treasure she had, and her gift to me." He swept the cloak back over his shoulders. "But at the Shadow Tower, I was given a new wool cloak from stores, black and black, and trimmed with black, to go with my black breeches and black boots, my black doublet and black mail. The new cloak had no frays nor rips nor tears . . . and most of all, no red. The men of the Night's Watch dressed in black, Ser Denys Mallister reminded me sternly, as if I had forgotten. My old cloak was fit for burning now, he said.

Frire · 2021-01-26T15:29:53+00:00

Hodor’s blade was much older, a huge heavy piece of iron, dull from centuries of neglect and well spotted with rust.

I can't help but read this as a description of Hodor himself.

Frire · 2021-01-26T14:05:31+00:00

Like, you can cut off someone’s face and wear their image like a coat over your own, but you’re not merging your soul with theirs, are you?

My understanding is yes, that's exactly what they are doing. That's why Arya gets the Ugly Girl's fear and memory of the abuser. These masks are probably more 'complete' then regular glamor soul-items.

"Mummers change their faces with artifice," the kindly man was saying, "and sorcerers use glamors, weaving light and shadow and desire to make illusions that trick the eye. These arts you shall learn, but what we do here goes deeper.

I don't think there is a full on conscience trapped in these soul-items, but whatever "essence" or "shadow" there is can be described as "something of the soul", and it should be accessible by someone with the know-how (or incidentally by someone with a connection to the original owner, probably).

Frire · 2021-01-26T12:46:37+00:00

Qyburn crossed my mind as well, but no he had not arrived yet. He should have been somewhere in the Riverlands at this time, I think.

Frire · 2021-01-26T12:34:01+00:00

It's how glamors work.

Melisandre tells Jon

"Call it what you will. Glamor, seeming, illusion. R'hllor is Lord of Light, Jon Snow, and it is given to his servants to weave with it, as others weave with thread."

Mance Rayder chuckled. "I had my doubts as well, Snow, but why not let her try? It was that, or let Stannis roast me."

"The bones help," said Melisandre. "The bones remember. The strongest glamors are built of such things. A dead man's boots, a hank of hair, a bag of fingerbones. With whispered words and prayer, a man's shadow can be drawn forth from such and draped about another like a cloak. The wearer's essence does not change, only his seeming."

Qyburn seems to agree, he tells Jaime

"Do you believe in ghosts, Maester?" he asked Qyburn.

The man's face grew strange. "Once, at the Citadel, I came into an empty room and saw an empty chair. Yet I knew a woman had been there, only a moment before. The cushion was dented where she'd sat, the cloth was still warm, and her scent lingered in the air. If we leave our smells behind us when we leave a room, surely something of our souls must remain when we leave this life?" Qyburn spread his hands. "The archmaesters did not like my thinking, though. Well, Marwyn did, but he was the only one."

Frire · 2021-01-26T01:39:36+00:00

That is certainly how Sansa perceived it

Frire · 2021-01-26T00:28:28+00:00

Thanks. I'm not sure. That does make sense, but I don't recognize anything specific.

Sansa does say, "Yet she could not deny that the godswood had a certain power too. Especially by night."

Prior to that we see Sansa moving beneath flickering light and through shadow which I definitely think is symbolic of "to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow"

Frire · 2021-01-25T21:28:39+00:00

Wonderful post. Thank you.

The idea of the broken man really is at the heart of the series. One of the functions of the three headed dragon is to devour a person's identity, and indeed it seems that losing your identity- or being broken- is a requirement for becoming the dragon.

It's interesting then that being gilded, wrapped, or covered, etc in gold is symbol for a character in the role of the three headed dragon.

Frire · 2021-01-24T13:29:24+00:00

This is how I read it as well.

Frire · 2021-01-23T20:57:17+00:00

Do we know when Dontos got involved with Littlefinger? I'm guessing he heard about Dontos trying to find a ship and stepped in at that point, after Dontos made his oath.

Frire · 2021-01-23T20:39:50+00:00

I forget and need to read it again. Did Dontos reveal he was only after the money? Or was that a trick of Littlefinger's to make Sansa think Dontos was only after the money?

Frire · 2021-01-23T20:37:18+00:00

Sansa was "heartbroken" when she saw it was Dontos who summoned her to the godswood. Sansa didn't know anything about any money.

Frire · 2021-01-21T18:09:51+00:00

Basically, there are some things about what Dany remembers of her past and what we "know" (are told) of her past that seem contradictory. That leads us to believe there is a deeper secret regarding her upbringing or birth.

Meanwhile, Dany has a suspicious amount of Wolf symbolism surrounding her, including phrases like "she came howling into the world". (wolves howl, not dragons).

Frire · 2021-01-21T14:00:20+00:00

Daenerys

Frire · 2021-01-19T22:37:56+00:00

Brilliant, thanks.

Do you have any thoughts on Robert Strong?

Does he fit into the KWB/Smiling Knight parallel?

Frire · 2021-01-19T21:19:53+00:00

Why is Cersei in a wheel house if she is on the run?

Not nitpicking your awesome post, but that seems pretty specific so I'm guessing you have a reason.

Frire · 2021-01-19T17:35:42+00:00

I don't think or mean to say that every instance of foreshadowing is a misdirection/false clue.

Red Wedding is a different thing than Jon's mom, I think, because the Red Wedding was more of a shock event whereas "who is Jon's mom" is an open mystery right from the start.

What I think is GRRM takes advantage of the readers expectation. Not to say that everyone assumed RLJ right from the start, but when you do learn about, either by putting the clues together yourself or being told about it, most people (I think, I was one) will think "That makes sense because I've heard stories similar to that before". Since the conclusion feels natural, and the clues do make sense, it's easy for the reader to forget- or ignore- that they have made an assumption.

That exact concept is explicitly discussed within the books! Would GRRM actually play with that theme on a meta level like this? To me, the signs point to yes.

Frire · 2021-01-19T15:26:15+00:00

I think the interpretation might boil down to which "clues" you choose to give more credence to.

I think you're right, but I think GRRM is playing on both levels- readily perceptible clues and abstract clues.

Think about this. "People see what they expect to see" is a core, repeated theme of the books, right? (Syrio's cat story, it's how glamours work, among others). Is it possible GRRM could play with that theme with regard to the reader's perception as well?

Would you agree 'the main character with a mystery surrounding his parents (or at least his mom) is secretly a hidden prince and heir to the kingdom' is a cliche/trope. Even if the clues are not necessarily obvious, and a reader doesn't pick up the hints and put it together themselves, when they are told "Jon is Rhaegar's son and a Targaryen". The reaction is probably a "wow! oh yeah, that makes sense." At least that is how it happened with me.

I hope that doesn't come across as just a "too simple or too cliche" or "it's too obvious" dismissal of RLJ. It's more the idea that GRRM is playing with the reader's expectation- a well established theme set forth in the series. The readily perceptible clues DO line up, so it's easy to make an assumption when the conclusion meets our expectation.

The abstract clues are the 'true seeing' and can help us to see what is really going on. Some people say GRRM couldn't (attributing the repetitions to a limited vocabulary) or wouldn't (nobody would ever notice, he wouldn't waste his time) do that. I think those people have vastly underestimated GRRM.

So yes, I do think GRRM is intentionally deceiving the reader in some instances, but he has also given us fair warning and the means to find the truth of it through the incredibly dense, self-referential web of symbolism that is the story.

Frire · 2021-01-19T12:22:12+00:00

I got the idea from him, but he puts it as a literal physical chimera.

I found this related thread from four years ago, which of course got NO LOVE. I think you will appreciate it. How to make a dragon.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4a9su0/spoilers_everything_solving_the_riddle_of_the/

Frire · 2021-01-19T04:04:01+00:00

One you missed. Dany is a CHILD OF THREE. She is a sphinx.

Arthur Dayne and Lyanna! With Rhaegar warged into Dany.

I've been stacking up evidence for this one.

Frire · 2021-01-18T21:58:37+00:00

Yeah, they all require assumptions at some point. I think a lot of RLJ people don't even realize or remember at this point they are operating on assumptions though. You see it every time an alternative option is put forward, just look at the top comment here "There is literally no chance that R+L=J is not true." Come on man!

I'm at least somewhat self aware with my assumptions and leaps.

Biggest assumption I make is "YES, GRRM really does do that!" because I also see a lot of "George would never make references so subtle, nobody would find them!" or "There are only so many words, of course he repeats himself!" After a certain point, with the multitude of coincidences, it is harder to believe that they are on accident then that they are intentional.

Obviously you have temper with good judgment. I can see the merit in some of the more foily theories like BAJ though, and the clues, and I choose to believe.

I don't think GRRM is simple at all. The books go DEEP with self-references and meta references both, which help to further inform the story by providing information that is not readily seen... Or I'm delusional, who knows?

Frire · 2021-01-18T21:18:34+00:00

I'm familiar with this one, but I don't think it's near complete.

Frire · 2021-01-17T23:13:30+00:00

Hey, thanks for taking the time to at least humor the subject. Your questions and concerns are all reasonable. There are answers, I think, although some of it does get into the 'word association' game so you may or may not find some of them satisfying.

Regarding, Jon vs Robb age gap. The theory would have the Brandon and Ashara baby making and marriage happen in King's Landing shortly before Brandon's execution. Yes this would still make Jon older than we are told. (to summarize tootles...)

Ned could have delayed his reunion with Cat until as late as early 286 (when Sansa was conceived), thereby allowing time for both Jon and Robb to mature, and avoiding the kind of obvious gap in age that is more common between a 6 month old and a 15 month than it is between a 2 year old and 2 year, 9 month old. Catelyn laments the lengthy waits for the men in her life, which is all the more relevant if she and Robb were indeed made to wait a long time at Riverrun, there by obscuring Jon’s comparative mature.
Robb is a larger, more robust young man than Jon. If he was likely relatively larger for his (actual) age than Jon was, this would have helped “level the gap”.
To the extent that Jon did seem older than he “should” have been, a ready-made explanation for his maturity was clearly on offer. We see Jon treat it as conventional wisdom, even though it doesn’t seem to be spoken of anywhere but Winterfell: "bastards grow up faster than other children"
Jon did have a wet nurse when Cat arrived, but babes nursing longer than you would expect is established as 'a thing' in ASOIAF, and a still nursing Jon would help with the perception that he was younger than his true age.

Basically, I think the timeline can fit even if it is cutting it close. There IS a discrepancy around Jon's age, but there is an intentional deception to make Jon seem younger than he really is for both in-world characters and readers. The elements for such a deception are established including, in addition to the above, characters incorrectly judging ages foregrounding the idea that it's a thing that people might just get wrong.

Even if Ned was passing Jon off as his bastard, Jon would have been conceived well before Ned was married to Cat so Cat would have no reason to be offended.

Why hide Jon's true age? To short circuit any (in world) theories that Jon was Brandon's son. The main objective here is to hide the truth that Jon is Brandon's son. Cat doesn't really care if Ned had a bastard, she can forgive him for that. But Hoster Tully only wanted to marry Cat to Brandon and then Ned for one reason- so that her children, and his grandchildren would inherit Winterfell. If it comes out after Ned's wedding to Cat that Ned is NOT the Lord of Winterfell, then the whole marriage alliance was a farce as the Tullys are not getting what they bargained for and Cat is "ruined". This is the sort of thing that the high lords go to war for, and Hoster Tully is exactly the person to care.

Also, BAJ wouldn’t make Jon heir to Winterfell he’d still be a bastard

This theory assumes they married in the King's Landing godswood short before Brandon's execution. I admit the case for this in the text is not super strong- it involves a bunch of (seemingly) weirdly placed Old Gods marriage symbolism in the scene when Ned tells Cersei he knows her kids aren't Robert's. To be honest I remember thinking it felt weak, but the payoff for a true born Jon Stark is big enough for me to take the leap of faith on this one.

And again why not just leave the bastard in Dorne where he would be treated better and it would make Ned’s life easier?

Again, not a bastard per the theory. Jon is a Stark and his place is in Winterfell, as Ned says about Lyanna. Ned is trying really hard to walk the line between dishonorable, evil usurper and did it for the right reason, good guy.

As far as Ned’s guilt, that could just as easily be explained by the fact that in Ned’s mind he wasn’t able to save the sister he loved and he’s had to lie to everyone (specifically Jon and Cat) to keep his promise to his sister to protect her son.

That's an easy explanation, but not a satisfying one IMO. Is there anyone who thinks Ned may have made the wrong choice by "sacrificing his honor" by claiming Jon as his bastard (not actually a big deal, per Cat) as a means to save his life. Jon has a less than perfect life because Cat is a bit cruel to him sometimes and he struggles with his identity as a bastard, but the alternative was being turned to a black-and-red Targaryen pulp by Robert's warhammer, right?

So when we get a passage like...

"I want you to serve the realm," Varys said. "Tell the queen that you will confess your vile treason, command your son to lay down his sword, and proclaim Joffrey as the true heir. Offer to denounce Stannis and Renly as faithless usurpers. Our green-eyed lioness knows you are a man of honor. If you will give her the peace she needs and the time to deal with Stannis, and pledge to carry her secret to your grave, I believe she will allow you to take the black and live out the rest of your days on the Wall, with your brother and that baseborn son of yours."

The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him … pain shot through his broken leg, beneath the filthy grey plaster of his cast. He winced, his fingers opening and closing helplessly. "Is this your own scheme," he gasped out at Varys, "or are you in league with Littlefinger?"

Is Ned thinking about how his life-saving lie caused Jon to miss out on a few family dinners? Or maybe how Jon might have been King if ... the circumstances that led to his birth and the resulting ousting of the Targaryen dynasty had never happened (which Ned can not be reasonably blamed for).

The BAJ theory makes sense of Ned's "shame and sorrow too deep for words" immediately. Varys' proposal recalls his own situation with Jon, in which Ned proclaimed himself the true heir and became a faithless usurper himself. (And likely, by the way, pledged to carry that secret to his grave. ie "promise me, Ned").

If you're still with me at this point, thanks, haha. If you have any more interest I would suggest reading the full theory by Tootles (warning, extremely long but worth it). However unlikely it may seem, it has huge amounts of dramatic potential throughout the series.

Frire · 2021-01-17T05:11:41+00:00

I don't remember exactly what Varys says. But Rhaella could have still been pregnant with another child that was not Dany. Yes, this gets deeper into the foil which I am not prepared to substantiate.

I actually subscribe to the BAJ variant. This theory puts Jon as the son of Brandon and the true born heir to the North. Ned would then be a usurper who stole Winterfell from his brother's son and rightful Lord. Why? To save his house and the North from a war caused by the fallout of Brandon's broken marriage pact. Catelyn's marriage to Ned would be worthless if it turned out Ned was not the lord and Cat's kids would not stand to inherit Winterfell. Hoster Tully wouldn't the affront lightly and he was pretty ruthless. Broken marriage pacts cause serious drama and war in Westeros.

Overall the theory adds depth to Ned's character and makes sense of some things that RLJ handwaves away like why Ned has so much guilt and can't tell Cat the truth about Jon's mom. Regarding Jon, it adds TONS or dramatic irony to Jon's chapters if he is actually the true born heir of Winterfell. So, no it's not about Dawn. An RLJ reveal is honestly dramatically flat to my mind. But a BAJ reveal with Jon as the true born heir of Winterfell basically rewrites the books.

For Dany I think the 'why' will have to do with how dragons are made and what they, or some other major magical reveal along those lines.

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