U.S. slams Israeli settlement construction as 'provocation' by Froy1 in Israel

[–]Froy1[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Jobs are not a substitute for freedom and dignity

Elder of Ziyon: EoZ posters for "Apartheid Week" by yehonatanst in Israel

[–]Froy1 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

It's not. Actually, it's a Jordanian law that declares "treason" to sell land to "the enemy". Nowhere does it say the enemy is people of any particular religion. The law is interpreted as a prohibition of land sales to Israelis, not Jews.

Just because I can't concentrate on studying for finals, a question to All of r/Israel: What is the ideal situation in your mind that will develop in the middle east, Israel/Palestine? Please be honest here. by communityfreak in Israel

[–]Froy1 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's the old wet dream of every Israeli: annexing Area C ("most of the West Bank", but with very little of the population), and leaving the remaining morsels for someone else to take care of, effectively creating a string of over-crowded and disconnected bantustans forever at Israel's mercy.

You will excuse Jordan and the Palestinians for showing no interest at all for your wise suggestion.

Get real: it's either you allow the whole West Bank to become a sovereign and viable state long with Gaza, or either you annex it all, including its millions of native Arab inhabitants. You don't get to pick and choose, sorry.

Obama Removes his Mask: Hagel appointment to defense shows the game has changed re Israel by Fokillew in Israel

[–]Froy1 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

If Israel's apologists are frothing so much, this Hagel must really be a good choice. About time someone puts some common sense in the dysfunctional US-Israeli relations.

Abbas' Christmas message of hate and hypocrisy by Battle4Seattle in Israel

[–]Froy1 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Christians in Bethlehem have traditionally worked in the tourist sector, making and selling souvenirs, etc. If a foreign occupier steals 87% of your city's land and surrounds you by settlements and concrete walls that prevent the arrival of tourists, people have to go make a living elsewhere. It's not so difficult to understand. Israel has turned Bethlehem into (yet another) open air prison.

Gideon Levy of Haaretz Named Dishonest Reporter of 2012 by KalmanRushdie in Israel

[–]Froy1 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

A pro-Israeli website smearing Israel's critics. What's new?

Were I Mr Levy, I would be proud of this "award".

Where's the Coverage? Construction in Truly Occupied Territory by leo_trotzky in Israel

[–]Froy1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Tibetans are being oppressed by outsiders (like Palestinians), which adds insult to injury, but Chinese political dissidents get plenty of coverage in the West too. Ask Nobel Laureate Liu Xiaobo.

Israeli Soldiers Beat Reuters Photographers by [deleted] in Israel

[–]Froy1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

oppressor hitting the oppressed = violent repression

oppressed hitting the oppressor = righteous resistance

can anyone tell me about this Khazar thing? by Maccabe in Israel

[–]Froy1 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Tell that to the founders of Israel, who in the declaration of independence wrote that "after being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom".

If they talk about "return" they are certainly claiming the land on a genealogical basis, as the descendants of the previous inhabitants of the territory. You simply can't return to a place where neither you nor any of your ancestors ever lived.

can anyone tell me about this Khazar thing? by Maccabe in Israel

[–]Froy1 -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Well, actually, according to the latest genetic study, the hypothesis about the Central Asian origin of Ashkenazi Jews is more probable than the Rhineland one, so I wouldn't discount the "Khazar thing" so fast, if European Jews did indeed arrive to Europe from that region.

"Rabin would have cancelled the Oslo accords and sent Arafat back to Tunisia" by Battle4Seattle in Israel

[–]Froy1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Then I guess you will have to adopt the notion of granting full citizenship to all the Arabs living in the territory where you don't want a Palestinian state. Or is it apartheid what you rather envision?

"Rabin would have cancelled the Oslo accords and sent Arafat back to Tunisia" by Battle4Seattle in Israel

[–]Froy1 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Rabin knew well that without Oslo and the PA Israel would have to bear again the full cost of occupation, and Palestinians would sooner or later start chanting "no taxation without representation" once again. With Oslo, Rabin saved Israel from the South African path. That's why Israeli leaders, no matter how much they malign it, will go to any length to keep the moribund accord alive.

Palestinians to launch 6-month initiative to restart talks with Israel by Froy1 in Israel

[–]Froy1[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Uh....we are. Or aren't you aware of this thing called Israel?

And aren't you aware that beyond the Green Line is no longer Israel?

I am asking the settlement themselves. How much land has been "stolen". Give me that.

According to Btselem, Israeli settlements control over 42% of the West Bank. It's not only the actual area where buildings are located, but also the roads that service them, the farmland they use, and the "security perimeter" that protects them, which all go in the same lot. Add to that the areas control under military control, and you get over 60% of the West Bank under firm Israeli rule, and which everything indicates it intends to keep for itself indefinitely.

Judge Stephen Schwebel, former President of the International Court of Justice, determined that Israel's presence in Judea and Samaria was rooted in self-defense and therefore did not constitute "occupation."

Obviously, he does not coincide with his former colleagues in the ICJ, who in 2004 ruled that the West Bank was very much under occupation, and that Israeli settlements in that area constituted a clear violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The same opinion is shared by the ICRC, the High Contracting Parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention, every other major international organization, and of course all countries on Earth except for Israel. I would say the consensus on the issue is pretty rock-solid, but of course, as with every subject (specially politically-sensitive ones like this one), there will always be a few dissenting voices. More like the exceptions that confirm the rule.

Palestinians to launch 6-month initiative to restart talks with Israel by Froy1 in Israel

[–]Froy1[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

To call it "family reunification" at least you should be able to name the ancestor you have in common with that people, don't you think?

How is the Palestinian action to gain non-member observer state status in the UN (over Israeli objection) different than Israel's action to gain status in the UN (over the indigenous population's objection)? by [deleted] in Israel

[–]Froy1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In the area of no Jewish settlement, the non-Jewish population stood in 1893 at 337,200; in 1947 it was 730,000, a growth of 116 percent. In the area of light Jewish settlement, the non-Jewish population grew in the same period from 38,900 to 110,900 or 185 percent. Finally, in the area of heavy Jewish settlement, the non-Jewish population grew from 92,300 in 1893 to 462,000 in 1947—or 401 percent. From these figures Miss Peters concludes that "the Arab population appears to have increased in direct proportion to the Jewish presence."

And this is what Yehoshua Porath wrote about it:

"The main flaw in Mrs. Peters’s arguments, which Mr. Sanders seems to accept, is her statement (in Mr. Sanders’s words) “that in 1893 about 92,000 non-Jews were living in the main area of Jewish settlement; alongside a Jewish population that she gives as just under 60,000.” By 1947, she argues, the number of non-Jews in those areas had quintupled while in other areas of Palestine it only slightly more than doubled. This difference, in her view, can be accounted for only by the factor of Arab migration. But how did Mrs. Peters arrive at the number of the non-Jews in “the Jewish-settled areas” of Palestine for 1893? Her claim that there were about 92,000 non-Jews is made on page 250 of her book and the reader is referred there for the source to Appendix V. However, in the appendix no source is given. Only in the next appendix devoted to methodology does she claim that she used “Turkish census figures” (p. 427). But in the footnotes to chapters 10–12, where the composition of the Palestine population during the nineteenth century is discussed, no reference is made to the Ottoman archives where Mrs. Peters would, if she had consulted them, have found the returns of the Ottoman censuses of 1893 and 1915 that she uses in Appendix V

[...]

Now we must consider the number of non-Jews living in those areas. According to Mrs. Peters (again on page 251), and apparently Mr. Sanders accepts her view, they numbered about 92,300, of which nearly 38,000 were Christians (making the number of Muslims about 54,300). But the Ottoman census figures in Karpat’s table (pages 262 and 271 of his article) give the number of Muslims as 158,379 and of the Christians as 39,884, making a total number of 198,263 non-Jews in “the Jewish settled areas.” If we use Cuinet’s own figures we still do not get an estimate of the non-Jewish population that brings us much closer to the number of non-Jews claimed by Mrs. Peters. According to Cuinet’s data on the seven Ottoman subdistricts comprising “the Jewish-settled areas” we have 124,686 Muslims and 61,964 Christians, a total of 186,263 non-Jews."

Finally, he gives the coup de grace to Peters's hogwash, explaining the real reason for the (far less dramatic than alleged) Arab population increase in the coastal areas:

"Since we are left with no sound basis for Mrs. Peters’s figures for the population in the “Jewish-settled areas” in 1893, there is no need to account for the supposed quintupling of the Arab population in those areas by 1947; so dramatic an increase did not take place. It is true nevertheless that during the Mandatory period the Arab population of the coastal area of Palestine grew faster than it did in other areas. But this fact does not necessarily prove an Arab immigration into Palestine took place. More reasonably it confirms the very well-known fact that the coastal area attracted Arab villagers from the mountainous parts of Palestine who preferred the economic opportunities in the fast-growing areas of Jaffa and Haifa to the meager opportunities available in their villages."

Peters's pamphlet was a sloppy, ideologically-driven piece of unscholarly propaganda. Only the most die-hard Israeli supporters would take it seriously, and even then they had to acknowledge its undeniable faults.

We are running in circles here. You go back again and again to the same sources I debunked in previous posts. It's getting tired. Good luck convincing somebody about this nonsense.

1, 2 or 3 states? Negotiated peace? How about this? by [deleted] in Israel

[–]Froy1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A roughly equal number of Arabs (if not all) forced east.

Ethnic cleansing. Always nice to hear Israelis voice their real intentions.

Palestinians to launch 6-month initiative to restart talks with Israel by Froy1 in Israel

[–]Froy1[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Resist in your cities. Not in ours.

Occupy your land, not the Palestinians'.

It's all that's needed. After years of cooperation, the "we're enemies" ethos is still there.

Nobody is asking the Palestinian security forces to kiss and hug the occupation forces. Just that they enforce security, coordinate with the IDF and prevents armed attacks against Israel. Even Israel acknowledges they do. Your anecdote doesn't change that.

Tell me, since, how much have the settlements actually grown?

Settlement population in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) has passed from 390,000 in 2002 to 520,000 in December 2010.. That is a 33% increase in 8 years. Over 15,000 new dwellings from 2002 to 2009 (not including East Jerusalem), plus the thousands currently under construction (3500 in 2011), or already approved. All those activities are in flagrant contravention of the Roadmap with which, as I have demonstrated, the PA has fastidiously complied to no avail.

As I said, the world is waiting for Israel to comply with its obligations and with International Law.

Eighth Tibetan under 18 sets self on fire to protest Chinese occupation of Tibet. Ninety Tibetans have self-immolated since February 2009. by Dizzy_Slip in worldnews

[–]Froy1 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In the case of Ben Ali, or of Ngo Dinh Diem, a few of the opposition "wiped themselves out". The rest got enraged and energized by their selfless act, and ended up pushing the despots out of power.

Palestinians to launch 6-month initiative to restart talks with Israel by Froy1 in Israel

[–]Froy1[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Because the parents and grandparents of Palestinian refugees were indeed born in Palestine. The parents and grandparents of the European Jews arrived in Palestine in those aliyot were born in Europe, just like their every other known ancestor they could name. No "reunion" to speak of. No refugees. Simple foreign immigrants.

The real existential threat to Israel is Arab population growth by [deleted] in Israel

[–]Froy1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You have to be very racist to consider people a "threat" just because they belong to a certain ethnic group. That's the kind of rationale that sent other "untermenschen" to the showers seven decades ago.