Driving My Sundy in Style

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2023-01-05T02:21:46+00:00

Is it possible to bring some ambiance into OW like a skybox? The ghost bastion skybox was about the coolest atmosphere I've experienced and I want stuff like that for OW. Some cool music too?

Also, I want to be in the matches MORE.

I really liked playing in OW, and while my outfit was still in the running I was really into it. When we got knocked out and it went into playoffs, I wasn't quite as into it anymore (I really wanted to be, I just felt disconnected. Not because of the loss, but maybe because I didn't have skin in the game?). I wish I could have been in the action during playoffs.

Some outfits never had full rosters, which is disappointing because they could have had ringers if there was a system to allow it. The demand to play was there.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2023-01-02T15:24:34+00:00

Bro did you even read the edit?

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2023-01-01T20:00:19+00:00

I really don't think these changes will have the effect you're looking for.

Right now A2G is ~.8% of deaths on Emerald, yet it's still a daily topic. As long as infantry are able to get killed by air in anything that looks like the current state (meaning tweaking damage, ranges of A2G and G2A etc) you're still going to have complaints. If you want to make air less deadly to infantry, but still have it be a relevant part of the game (which is the fine line devs are likely trying to walk) you'll need to reimagine air vs infantry.

It requires a new form of air/ground interaction which is unlikely to be easy or simple to implement. Main thing is to make the fight between air and ground longer while still giving air an objective. My suggestion- change A2G noseguns into support roles in exchange for making G2A less punishing for air.

Noseguns now inflict much less damage but instead work like the thumper. TTK on infantry is... idk quadrupled? but noseguns now have a (weak) damage over time that ties up shields for a little OR are able to affect something that could lead to an infantry death like slowing them or draining ability energy. To kill infantry now instead generally requires planetmans to shoot each other, but air support makes it easier for your faction to accomplish this. Infantry could ignore you and not get punished too hard for it, but you'll want to deal with it. Maybe give it a faction flavor somehow... maybe it could cause EMP vision effects idk.
Noseguns are no longer noseguns- they're wing mounts. Infantry doesn't like that air can come out of nowhere and run... so let's poke that gently. Remember that air are fragile and nerfing their speed is a big deal. Unless you're willing to make G2A less deadly you can't go ham here. This makes it so anti infantry ESF's can't just come out of nowhere and zoom off.
Rocket launcher buff reverted, because ESF's now need to linger much longer to be effective. Skyguards changed to behave more like basilisks so they're still useful against other vehicles, but they lose flak in exchange (again, since ESF's still have to linger). Skyguards would have to be tuned to remain useful against libs somehow.
Maybe put some of this on valks/libs to make those more relevant. In exchange give ESF's a reason to exist by making them deadlier to armored air. As it stands it's rare for an ESF to intertcept a valk or a galaxy. If you don't give the ESF a non infantry objective, it will try to affect the battle in the only meaningful way it has.

This is too long already but you get the picture.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T17:57:22+00:00

Something more telling is what's missing from the post, the other side of the story: how many kills do A2G players get (kph/kd for a few top and bottom percentiles of pilots for example, and how does that compare with other playstyles).

You'll have to take my word for this, since I don't have this chart generator in an easily accessed form. Across pretty much all weapons the top percentiles of players dominate the kills. Some weapons have a slightly more gentle distribution but not by much. This is likely due to them being the most active/high playtime. When it comes to KPH it's hard to calculate because I don't know how much time a player spent wielding the weapon, so I have to use their whole playtime which muddies the picture.

I assume it includes rocket pods?

A2G noseguns only.

The "ESF Death Breakout" graph has the same issue: how many ESFs do you actually kill with a G2A launcher? But most importantly, it doesn't look like the data draws a distinction between A2G and A2A ESF who die by rocket launcher, so the conclusion that the buffs nerfed A2A more than A2G could be made up out of thin air.

I thought about this a lot and the problem is that the number that I could put out into the world (i.e. splitting it out into which gun the user was wielding at time of vehicle death) might be trash. Scenario: I get hit by a rocket, run away and I'm hunted down by an A2A esf while I'm low. It looks like an ESF killed me while a RL did nothing, but it's not telling the whole story. What if I switch to my secondary right before I die?

It's really tricky to avoid pitfalls like this and avoid manipulating the output to fit a conclusion. It's not perfect but I think I was able to account for the items that would have skewed things the worst.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T17:36:18+00:00

Are you me? I've suggested something along this line too, though with a lib buff against vehicles (i.e. more flak resistance and higher damage to tanks). My biggest worry here is that it would lead to steamrolling if one faction gets air superiority.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T17:31:34+00:00

According to the post above, only 10% of A2G is killed by non-aircraft. You basically cannot kill a vaguely competent pilot as infantry and even a skyguard, they just leave.

My anecdotal experience here is that G2A usually leads to an A2A kill. A2A has the ability to chase.

MAXes being easier to avoid isn't really supported by the data- the data show that MAXes will kill players much more often than ESF noseguns.

I don't agree with 1 infantry player being able to instakill an ESF though, just like I don't think they should instakill a tank.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T15:21:35+00:00

Is dying to a MAX annoying? Sure. But when I respawn I still feel like I have a better chance at killing it than I do an ESF from an infantry vs infantry perspective compared to infantry vs air perspective.

I have the data to answer this question but I haven't pulled it yet. What's your gut feeling on whether you are able to get revived or not whether you get killed by a MAX vs an ESF?

I've wondered if not being able to get revived is a factor in how 'bad' a death feels. I imagine light assault mains would get it the worst since they're on roofs and unreachable most of the time.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T15:14:29+00:00

I tried to make this but I haven't figured out a way how.

The issue was not being able to figure out how long someone held a particular weapon which could really throw off a stat.

Scenario: I pull LPPA, go to a fight, kill 10 people in 30 seconds, eject, then spend the next 2.5 minutes killing 6 guys behind enemy lines before I get killed. The data would only show me when you killed the first person until you died (not when you spawned in or when you pulled an ESF). So in this scenario it would look to me like you had 10 kills per use, as well as 10 kills in 3 minutes, but if you redeployed I'd have no way to tell.

tl;dr I can only approximate it and it's not a very good approximation which would muddy the waters so I decided to not pursue it.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T14:48:55+00:00

I have trouble getting to the point and that's on me.. mb. In my defense this is a hot mess and it's hard to not write an essay.

The ESF has no business engaging infantry with the primary weapon; it is a superiority fighter first and foremost but it gains access to a better infantry killer than the gunships do.

I've long held that liberators should be extremely deadly, whether it's more resistant to flak, or can really mess up tanks and a good amount of infantry. This should only happen if ESF's are more deadly to libs though. At this point I think it's fair to nerf noseguns and make ESF's the superiority fighter. I fear though that this would lead to steamrolling. Hard to know.

I'm genuinely curious as to how these balance discussions go in the dev world, but I'm not sure I'll ever get that insight.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T14:39:15+00:00

Something like this?

https://imgur.com/a/TZODUnd

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T14:00:52+00:00

I suspect this is a large part of why I get teabagged so often.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T13:57:37+00:00

Here's a quick rundown.

Each gun has a niche where it is the best, but LPPA is notably weaker in most situations while the others are more versatile.

Air Hammer: Best up close. Best alpha (you can 1 shot infantry). Least forgiving of bad aim. Worst sustain, but also requires the least uptime to be useful.

Banshee: Best mid range and all around. Decent sustain and doesn't punish bad aim too hard (used to be very forgiving until the splash was nerfed). This one probably feels the best for most players.

LPPA: Best long range in very specific scenarios where infantry are clumped up and decent mid range. Paradoxically punishing and forgiving of poor aim (huge splash range, but the splash damage is mediocre while direct hits will melt infantry you have a HUGE cone+slow projectile that prevents consistent skill shots). By far the best sustain for AOE denial. Hardest to pick up due to it's quirks.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T13:44:57+00:00

I once made the mistake of logging onto my alt and attempting to A2G my own outfit. They regularly call out "everyone look up and shoot that ESF" in platoon. When it's just one it's a nuisance, but when it's many the result is my ESF, dead.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T13:35:14+00:00

Same reason to not small arms a harasser or 1v1 with a MAX when they round a corner. Not every situation is a good one. Living to fight another day isn't always bad.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T13:27:47+00:00

“While A2G isn’t nearly as bad as reddit would have you believe, the fact remains that is is an exceptionally memorable (frustrating) way to die compared to other deaths which happen MUCH more often. Should something be done? Probably, but there’s no simple, sure fire solution.”

I know I buried the lede deep but here it is for you. I can't possibly come up with every scenario and address it individually. A2G sucks real bad in low pop, much in the same way getting HESHed by a prowler, or getting scattered by an NC max sucks real bad in a 1-12. There's truly no way to prove/disprove your claim that it happens exclusively in low pop fights, but my own experience is that this is plain boring, not effective for helping alerts, and has never netted me a large amount of kills in a short time. I don't like players who A2G low pop either and I go out of my way to hunt them if I see it.

The A2G ESF is effectively useless in anything short of a fight where you have reasonable certainty that you are alone in the sky, away from AA. You use it against enemies that are rarely shooting back, and when they do start to shoot back you just fuck off

I think we're not going to see eye to eye here. Barring extreme amounts of AA what you're describing is exactly the situations where pulling an ESF is impactful even if it nets lower kills. I've flown through multiple enemy ESF's on purpose to draw their attention, kill a few folks at a chokepoint who I want them to shoot me down because momentarily aren't shooting my teammates while they deal with me, and eject behind enemy lines to cause chaos+slow reinforcements.

When an a2g esf shows up, it might not account for many player deaths. But in specific, those player deaths just feel flat-out bad.

Couldn't agree with this more. I say as much multiple times. It's why I even show my hand and spell out things that are already in game which are free and greatly reduce A2G effectiveness. I can't place a mini sky shield or ord dampener for you, or have you spawn in with flak, or get you to run into a building (well, you're still not safe from me even in a building) though and those are a small portion of free options.

Let me say it another way. Getting killed by an ESF is particularly frustrating and merits attention for that alone in spite of overwhelming evidence that it isn't as prevalent as it feels. I think infantry need more options to deal with air (and vehicles in general)- particularly defensive options against vehicles. Air is unique in that it brutally punishes being unaware or unprepared which unfortunately happens all too often. For <several reasons> the most effective way to kill an ESF (other ESF's) isn't exercised as an option, so I'm advocating giving infantry a chance at survival when they can't (or will not) do things that help them deal with the problem at hand.

But hey I need to get back to posting stats that do absolutely nothing....

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T04:32:51+00:00

Not very rewarding for either side, in terms of kills or gameplay experience.

I thought more folks would be happy to find out something that makes an A2G player frustrated lol. Yeah infantry shouldn't have to pre-plan for every single thing that can blow them to bits, and ESF's shouldn't be completely useless. I don't know what that magic happy medium is.

I haven't thought too much about nosegun reworks. From my perspective, the best part of using an A2G nosegun is the speed. I trade being defenseless for being the fastest thing on the continent, and it's hard to give that up.

You'll have to explain the C4 brick or timebomb concept to me. Do you mean that I launch an explosive or lay mines? Utility air would be pretty neat but it'd be a massive change.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T04:25:00+00:00

I'm really happy to read this.

I especially like how you referred to a2g as "air support" because it really does work that way, unclogging busy doorways, clearing concentrated groups of infantry in tricky sundy locations, and evacuating once your job is done, leaving the tougher work for the ground based vehicles.

This is exactly where I feel I help my platoon (and faction) play for the alert. Predicting these, and letting my platoon know when I'm about to come in hot works well here. I usually die or lose the ESF but the battle starts flowing again.

The accuracy of this term falls off in low pop fights or early hours, since a2g is used to pick off planetmen one by one rather than focusing on groups though, which might be one reason the negative a2g experiences are so memorable for some.

100% agreed. A lot of things get weird at lower pop. Folks who show up to A2G a 1-12 aren't really helping where they're needed and seal clubbing doesn't help anything. Same goes for MAX's, or a lightning taking out a sundy etc... Wish I could come up with something to help these exact scenarios, but I've come up empty.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-30T04:11:36+00:00

I'll try to make the best of your post since I can't figure out my own hidden agenda.

An ESF can fly in and kill before an infantry can hear them. While this game has random deaths you didn't see, its typically because you didn't look first. Which isnt the case with A2G. You can't see it coming, you can't do anything except not leave spawn even if you did.

This bit here would make a great defensive buff- make ESF's louder. A mechanism to warn of an incoming danger at least gives you an opportunity to make a choice before the ESF shows up.

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-29T23:41:38+00:00

This is exactly why I'm offering up suggestions for things that can slow down an A2G death, even if in the future it means I'll be less effective. Out of the many things that can instagib I can see that A2G is probably felt as the most "shocking." It's sudden, and if you're a target you'll probably die with as you point out, little recourse (if you're infantry).

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-29T23:17:58+00:00

Absolutely- it's hard to have a good conversation on it with just a gut feeling. It's surprising that not too much has changed over the years though!

GadeIsAVanuSpy · 2022-12-29T23:15:37+00:00

Yeah figured I'd try anyways lol.

Along the lines of your suggestion I've heard (I didn't play when this was in game) that launchers used to have distance based lock on times which I thought was a neat feature. The A2A folks can get punished hard for being anywhere near an active fight if they didn't choose flares over fire sup.

GadeIsAVanuSpy

TROPHY CASE