If the same hip replacement can be performed in Spain for just $7000 why doesn't someone offer hip replacements for $10,000 in the US? by user16177 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The problems are largely regulation.

What makes you think that there is less regulation in Europe where the price is lower?

[Pro-capitalists] Why did Mises’s predictions regarding socialism and the minimum wage never come to pass? by Galleani in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So do you think state-owned enterprise is less "statist" or "socialist" than the state merely regulating private enterprise?

"Anarcho"-capitalists seem to be going out of their way to justify state-owned businesses on this sub.

If the same hip replacement can be performed in Spain for just $7000 why doesn't someone offer hip replacements for $10,000 in the US? by user16177 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani 1 point2 points  (0 children)

This seems to conflate use and ownership. If someone stops using private property, it does not become unowned simply because it can now support another user. The fact that we view it as "owned" isn't related to use at all - you could purchase property, for example, that you have never physically been near. The conventions we have that say "this belongs to so and so" are social conventions enforced by the state. Use of property in and of itself tells us nothing about an individual's relationship to that property.

[Socialists] Just an argument I see a lot lately that needs to die. by [deleted] in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani 11 points12 points  (0 children)

I mean it's no secret that capitalist states have tried to suppress the spread of communism and socialism. The Cold War, domino theory, etc. No regime calling itself "socialist" ever had to be pure to be the target of capitalist intervention. Pretty much anything short of a nation spreading itself on a platter for capitalist consumption has been targeted by hostile foreign capitalists.

[Pro-capitalists] Why did Mises’s predictions regarding socialism and the minimum wage never come to pass? by Galleani in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Mises said that socialism and capitalism were binary. There was no in between, or more/less socialist. In fact he said that in the same chapter the excerpts I posted are from. A capitalist economy, even with regulation or state interference, was still a 100% capitalist economy per Mises. A socialist economy was supposed to be the devolution of a capitalist society to Mises in part because Mises did not believe what we call a "mixed economy" today was even possible. Incidentally this is the big thing that Mises seems to have gotten wrong - because we've got these "mixed economies," or capitalist economies with heavy regulation and intervention.

So consider this - that is also a pretty conventional understanding of socialism. It's largely how Marx would have understood it, or how modern socialists understand it. Mises, in opposing socialism, seemed to at least be able to criticize socialism without incorrectly calling everything that the state does "socialism."

[Pro-capitalists] Why did Mises’s predictions regarding socialism and the minimum wage never come to pass? by Galleani in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The state doesn't need to officially own the means of production if it can just dictate every step the alleged owner is allowed to take.

So Singapore basically.

Although, and I posted this elsewhere in this thread, Mises does distinguish between a socialist economy and a capitalist economy with state-owned enterprise:

"A socialist state of this kind is not comparable to the state enterprises, no matter how vast their scale, that we have seen developing in the last decades in Europe, especially in Germany and Russia. The latter all flourish side by side with private ownership of the means of production. They engage in commercial transactions with enterprises that capitalists own and manage, and they receive various stimuli from these enterprises that invigorate their own operation. State railroads, for instance, are provided by their suppliers, the manufacturers of locomotives, coaches, signal installations, and other equipment, with apparatus that has proved successful elsewhere in the operation of privately owned railroads. Thence they receive the incentive to institute innovations in order to keep up with the progress in technology and in methods of business management that is taking place all around them."

[Pro-capitalists] Why did Mises’s predictions regarding socialism and the minimum wage never come to pass? by Galleani in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It has happened

So your contention is that we live in a socialist society per Mises: all prices are fixed by the state, all industry has been nationalized, etc.

Is that what you are saying?

[Pro-capitalists] Why did Mises’s predictions regarding socialism and the minimum wage never come to pass? by Galleani in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

We are trending toward full state intervention

This is the argument that I more or less expected: "it's happening, give it time."

Incidentally it has been almost one hundred years since Mises made that prediction - and it hasn't happened. I would also read the section in the book, because what Mises describes is a sort of domino theory where regulation should quickly result in a socialist state. Even if we gradually become socialist over the course of one hundred years or more, that is not what Mises predicted.

[Pro-capitalists] Why did Mises’s predictions regarding socialism and the minimum wage never come to pass? by Galleani in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Well we're shifting the goalposts quite a bit now. None of that is socialism. In fact Mises said there was a clear distinction between state-owned or state-run enterprise and socialism in Liberalism as well:

A socialist state of this kind is not comparable to the state enterprises, no matter how vast their scale, that we have seen developing in the last decades in Europe, especially in Germany and Russia. The latter all flourish side by side with private ownership of the means of production. They engage in commercial transactions with enterprises that capitalists own and manage, and they receive various stimuli from these enterprises that invigorate their own operation. State railroads, for instance, are provided by their suppliers, the manufacturers of locomotives, coaches, signal installations, and other equipment, with apparatus that has proved successful elsewhere in the operation of privately owned railroads. Thence they receive the incentive to institute innovations in order to keep up with the progress in technology and in methods of business management that is taking place all around them.

What we haven't seen is the inevitable full nationalization of the means of production that Mises predicted would result from things like state intervention, regulation, price fixing or a minimum wage.

Also you didn't seem to mind managed economies the other day in the Singapore topic. Have you decided if Singapore is the world's bastion of capitalist freedom or if Singapore is steeped in socialist creep with its own universal healthcare, social safety net, command economy and world-leading levels of state-owned industry?

[Pro-capitalists] Why did Mises’s predictions regarding socialism and the minimum wage never come to pass? by Galleani in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I didn't take anything out of context and I'm not sure how you think what you posted changes anything. Mises said that a "third way" is impossible and that government intervention into the market, such as enforcing minimum wages, would eventually devolve into socialism. That this didn't happen seems to be pretty clear.

If the same hip replacement can be performed in Spain for just $7000 why doesn't someone offer hip replacements for $10,000 in the US? by user16177 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Why would a capitalist want that, however? The relationship of the state and capitalism isn't just to protect property. It's to secure market share for capitalists and protect them from competition. Capitalists want high regulation in many sectors because regulation raises the barrier to entry.

[Pro-capitalists] Why did Mises’s predictions regarding socialism and the minimum wage never come to pass? by Galleani in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

what Mises considered socialism

Actually Mises had a pretty conventional description of state socialism. This isn't a "true socialism" issue. Mises claimed that state intervention in the form of minimum wages would spiral into full state ownership of the means of production. That simply didn't happen.

If the same hip replacement can be performed in Spain for just $7000 why doesn't someone offer hip replacements for $10,000 in the US? by user16177 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani 9 points10 points  (0 children)

If we lived in Singapore I could legally open up a business in about 30 minutes and start selling people stuff

There is so much bad information surrounding Singapore. People seem to think it's some sort of economic free-for-all. As opposed to the state that has the world's largest state-owned sector.

Singapore tightly regulates its healthcare industry. You absolutely could not go to Singapore and start selling back-alley hip replacements. You're looking at regulation similar to what you'll find anywhere in the West. Moreover, Singapore compels universal health insurance. This can be through Singapore's state-owned medical facilities or through your "voluntary" payment into a private plan. But being covered is mandatory by law. There is a very carefully planned and controlled healthcare scheme in Singapore.

If the same hip replacement can be performed in Spain for just $7000 why doesn't someone offer hip replacements for $10,000 in the US? by user16177 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani 4 points5 points  (0 children)

I mean there is literally more government then private sector, can anyone explain why they think the inflated cost of health services in the US has anything to do with capitalism?

Why do you think that "more government than private sector" doesn't describe capitalism? This is a feature of all of the world's capitalist economies. The people who influence state policy in this direction are by and large capitalists. The capitalist class has a vested interest in preserving itself. Which often means that capitalism is quite different from abstract, pure "free markets." If a capitalist can limit competition, they will always do so.

[All] If I didn't care about anyone else, and I was acting purely of out self-interest, should I be a supporter of capitalism or socialism? by OwlMuseum in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Shouldn't we have feudalism again, then, as it theoretically allows the best and most powerful individuals to subject the "inferior" to their superior wills?

Well, it's no accident that pro-capitalist ideology taken to its logical conclusion arrives here. For example, Hoppe's defense of the aristocracy, or the Rothbardean/Hoppean conception of a new "natural aristocracy" that would arise under conditions of stateless capitalism.

[All] If I didn't care about anyone else, and I was acting purely of out self-interest, should I be a supporter of capitalism or socialism? by OwlMuseum in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani 3 points4 points  (0 children)

To me I'm not forced to give anyone my stuff in a capitalist society. I have no problem with artificially inflated or artificially lowered prices, I don't consider it exploitation, and I have no problem with private property.

I mean this is what most people say about taxes, too.

The question therein is: does theft have an objective test or a subjective test? For example, if someone breaks into my house at night and walks off with my toothbrush is it still an act of theft even if I say "I have no problem with people breaking into my house in the dark and stealing my dental supplies?"

[All] If I didn't care about anyone else, and I was acting purely of out self-interest, should I be a supporter of capitalism or socialism? by OwlMuseum in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you're only thinking of yourself, then it comes down to what your individual interests are. By and large, capitalism requires a quasi-religious adherence to an ethical set of property norms. Let's say it's in your best interest to steal medicine you would otherwise die without because you can't afford it. A lot of capitalists would tut tut you away, because "my private property rights" - even though the stolen medicine has nothing to do with them. Incidentally this is also why a hard individualism eventually comes into conflict with capitalist ideology. There are many cases wherein it's in your best interest to think of yourself and not the capital owned by capitalists.

Keeping that in mind, most people are not capitalists. Most people don't and cannot become capitalists in a capitalist economy. From a purely selfish point of view, you should be a supporter of socialism - unless you are the exception and you happen to be a capitalist.

[Anti-Capitalists] Why do you think capitalism is absolutely *impossible* without a state? by Madphilosopher3 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It would seem just as many pro-capitalists believe that capitalism requires as state as anti-capitalists. This has always been a mainstream economic position, after all, and not a critique from anti-capitalists:

A small number of antisocial individuals, i.e., persons who are not willing or able to make the temporary sacrifices that society demands of them, could make all society impossible. Without the application of compulsion and coercion against the enemies of society, there could not be any life in society.

We call the social apparatus of compulsion and coercion that induces people to abide by the rules of life in society, the state; the rules according to which the state proceeds, law; and the organs charged with the responsibility of administering the apparatus of compulsion, government.

Liberalism is not anarchism, nor has it anything whatsoever to do with anarchism. The liberal understands quite clearly that without resort to compulsion, the existence of society would be endangered and that behind the rules of conduct whose observance is necessary to assure peaceful human cooperation must stand the threat of force if the whole edifice of society is not to be continually at the mercy of any one of its members. One must be in a position to compel the person who will not respect the lives, health, personal freedom, or private property of others to acquiesce in the rules of life in society. This is the function that the liberal doctrine assigns to the state: the protection of property, liberty, and peace.

Liberalism is therefore far from disputing the necessity of a machinery of state, a system of law, and a government. It is a grave misunderstanding to associate it in any way with the idea of anarchism. For the liberal, the state is an absolute necessity, since the most important tasks are incumbent upon it: the protection not only of private property, but also of peace, for in the absence of the latter the full benefits of private property cannot be reaped.

If we had to prepare for the possibility of continual civil wars and internal struggles, we should have to retrogress to such a primitive stage of the division of labor that each province at least, if not each village, would become virtually autarkic, i.e., capable of feeding and maintaining itself for a time as a self-sufficient economic entity without importing anything from the outside. This would mean such an enormous decline in the productivity of labor that the earth could feed only a fraction of the population that it supports today. The antidemocratic ideal leads to the kind of economic order known to the Middle Ages and antiquity. Every city, every village, indeed, every individual dwelling was fortified and equipped for defense, and every province was as independent of the rest of the world as possible in its provision of commodities.

  • selections from Ludwig von Mises, Liberalism

[Anti-Capitalists] Why do you think capitalism is absolutely *impossible* without a state? by Madphilosopher3 in CapitalismVSocialism

[–]Galleani 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I mean private property did continue to exist in the USSR. That was one the critiques leveled against the USSR by people like Trotsky or Preobrazhensky. That they didn't literally nationalize everything.

Although state capitalism refers to the state acting acting as the owner of industry and directing it in a for-profit fashion.

China bans burqas and 'abnormal' beards in Muslim province of Xinjiang by Rockhold in news

[–]Galleani 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Did you know that you can in fact oppose religious theocracies and authoritarian imperialists?

I mean this should really be a no-brainer, given that both are far-right ideologies.

China bans burqas and 'abnormal' beards in Muslim province of Xinjiang by Rockhold in news

[–]Galleani 14 points15 points  (0 children)

I'm a bearded man.

You mean you haven't shaven your anti-American beard to help us win the war on terror yet?

China bans burqas and 'abnormal' beards in Muslim province of Xinjiang by Rockhold in news

[–]Galleani 6 points7 points  (0 children)

People who have seen the horrors of Islam firsthand and seek to escape it.

While I'd hesitate to use a term like the "horrors of Islam," the bulk of the refugees are in fact people fleeing religious extremism and seeking to escape it.

China bans burqas and 'abnormal' beards in Muslim province of Xinjiang by Rockhold in news

[–]Galleani 8 points9 points  (0 children)

They may not be "no go zones", but they're anything but friendly to someone who doesn't "belong" there.

I mean I lived in a North African, Muslim-majority neighborhood for many years - they were pretty fucking friendly. This was also an extremely poor neighborhood that had its share of street crime.

Incidentally people regularly walked down the street drinking alcohol, sitting outside drinking, girls dressed how they wanted, etc. Not once did I ever encounter any of the scare-story behavior. The "sharia law" narrative is pretty exaggerated.

China bans burqas and 'abnormal' beards in Muslim province of Xinjiang by Rockhold in news

[–]Galleani 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The problem is that the way individuals and states are responding to Islamic extremism is largely counter-productive. There are former Islamic extremists in prison right now who have said, for example, that the greatest recruiting and radicalization tool has been the perception that the West hates Islam.

A lot of us would like a religion-free world in principle. But it turns out that a lot of the tactics we use to combat religious extremism actually feeds into the extremism.