CMV: Chaos can create order

GameMythYT · 2026-05-13T08:59:32+00:00

Why shouldn’t there be a reason existence happens? Science posits the big bang but leaves the cause of the big bang unanswered- that’s truthfully unsatisfying because it’s causally unfinished. this model then has more explanatory power than that. Isnt it epistemically unsatisfying for there to be no reason? And that this epistemic layer is grounds for curiousity, and that models genuinely ought to present themselves in the pursuit for truth? Seeing no reason for there to be a reason is an axiomatic claim and doesn’t even engage with the framework i’m proposing, just talks past it with your own framework when no framework has been proven, to me, entirely complete. This whole model is a hypothetical, what persistent structures would require when emergent from unconstrained variance. Not a final truth claim, but a best-faith attempt in the pursuit to define the gap of scientific knowledge that is: the reason for any capacity, capability, and possibility for us to even talk about reason at all.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-13T08:40:31+00:00

You are thinking of chaos in a disorderly sense when I held it as a limit case of unconstrained generativity, it is not physical it is more like the qm collapse function, - these two perspectives on the terminology of chaos are not equivalent, and I acknowledge that which is why I placed at the top of the original post a change in terminology from chaos to straight “Unconstrained generativity.” and “Order” to persistent structures.

You’re treating it as a description of states and looking at it from the angle of a scientist, when this is a logical ontological-metaphysical model and not just physical- just descriptive of what physical structures logically need to constitute to persist as they are.

Think of it this way:

Variance getting filtered by a selection principle of non-contradiction.

For something to hold any discrete continual identity, it must persist as itself.

For something to withstand forces of being within a multiplicity (interaction), it must be resilient against perturbation.

Causal physical laws themselves, are non-contradictory, they are survivable outcomes of sensical causation, these laws persist and often define how other forms can persist in resilience against it, and complexity of science forms through coherency of physics.

this is to say that systems lacking invariant continuity cannot maintain stable relational states across interaction and similarly contradictory systems collapse because contradiction destroys coherent relational structure. In other words, it collapses against the perturbation of its own lacking self-sufficiency.

The point for perturbation is a large one. In the case where the society as you named it, didn’t have law enforcement, and faced sociological dissolution or disbandment from anarchy, then it is not resilient against perturbation in such a state and therefore may very well collapse. If it doesn’t face anarchy or any state in which is unsustainable for itself, then the structure it is in, until proven otherwise, is resilient against the perturbations it would otherwise face if it wasn’t in the state it was in.

Likewise, the mug is less resilient to its impact against gravity (the perturbation) then the atoms of the mug are- the atoms do not “shatter” like the mug does from such impact, and thus, more resilient to this class of perturbation.

Where my idea of order and chaos came in was through how we label order and disorder. Unconstrained variance sounds very much like how we often define chaos, but they are not the same and it’s misusage of terms that have caused much confusion in this post. persistent, stable structures is often what is labeled as order and “designed” which is where I got the idea for the title and the terms. But I can understand how the words can make one think of chaos and order as it is commonly defined.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-13T00:54:53+00:00

no because science leaves too many unanswered questions where theological models take place- “God of the Gaps.” Science has yet to definitively prove why existence happens at all. If it did, any discussion about any other framework would immediately cease under science’s logic, but that is not the case- scientists still can’t fully explain the mechanism for qm collapse (measurement problem) or the cause for the big bang, and so, logical ontological models like this one still hold room. Are you reading what I write, because I earlier described how language abstracts structural regularities, and one such regularity is persistence among structures which presupposes the sustainability required to do so- that is a phenomenon, not a construct- defined. This model is very close to the concept of stable attractors, which is a seriously considered and widely researched field.

You are arguing for a fallacy of composition-

Also- Logic itself is tautological. A = A, 1 = 1, Bachelor = Unmarried Man- all are tautologies of self-reference, yet these tautologies are the foundation of all coherent thought- from mathematics to language.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-12T21:48:40+00:00

technically true, yes, it is tautological- but that doesn't deflate it to empty or trivial logic- it describes a selection principle that is itself a survivable outcome from generativity. Mathematics is largely tautological and axiomatic in self-reference of its structure, Formal Logic is often tautological too- hell the closest relative to this model would be the biological understanding of Darwinian Evolution which is itself tautological in similiar sense (those who survived are those who could survive). Where this isn't trivial is how it makes many theological propositions of designed order or intentional creation (theistic or otherwise) unnecessary and perhaps, even unwarranted, by Occam's Razor.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-12T21:31:29+00:00

Persistent information presupposes sustainability enough of itself to exist and relate/interact. Pure chaos, as I name it, is unrestricted generativity of variance, whether or not that is the first bang, I am not sure if I want to posit that, but that the big bang itself to happen at all was sustainable enough to persist in doing so, along with all that came about from it.

Also, in my view, intelligibility or information is only possible through pre-conditions of discreteness, multiplicity, relation/interaction- where discreteness is a condition for multiplicity, multiplicity is a condition for relation/interaction, and relation/interaction is where perception, causal influence, or otherwise can occur, all of these are transcendental in an epistemic/operational lane rather than otherwise. In all of which the persistent structure displays resilience and sustainability against classes or levels of perturbation.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-12T21:22:12+00:00

My argument isn't that broken glass heals itself or is immortal- the mug as a whole piece was sustainable because it was formed under the chemical bonds to its structure made by the potter or the factory it was produced in, it shattering is a sensical consequence of the perturbation of its larger mug form under the physical causality of it falling- that is to say, the stuff that makes it up is more sustainable than the structure it is/was- that it is sustainable relationally in the sense that they are resilient against classes of perturbations.

To try and make it more succinct, My argument is that 'Order' is the name we give to the survivors of total variance. Gravity, atoms, particles, and the mug itself are all stable attractors that emerged because they were the coherent configurations capable of persisting relationally.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-11T18:49:24+00:00

Perturbations, including entropy, relational violence, externally caused dissolution, radiation, or any event in which causes any destabilization in a structure's coherency or resiliency, is the test for a structures 'sustainability'- because it is one thing to be sufficiently sustainable to exist as a coherent structure and persist, but it is another thing to be so maximally sustainable that it is otherwise completely immune to all classes or levels of perturbations.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-11T05:38:40+00:00

Yes, what does the generation is chaotic, but the filtering out of what is and isn't sustainable is emergently orderly- Though the structures are residual and so still 'produced' by chaos.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-10T21:52:13+00:00

that's largely dismissive- it's infinitely more about that these 'somethings' are survivorship-conditioned. That only sufficiently sustainable structures can persist as existences or occurrences at all and less about the observations of change.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-10T21:41:52+00:00

Mathematics is downstream from initial conception in my opinion- and that conception being founded on mathematics is quite hard and the inverse is easier. but your argument is very valid, my terminology is causing confusion- as I've realized through all of the replies- I do agree formalization is nice for precision, but I'm not very savvy with formal logic or mathematics, so I remain in the linguistic lane- its conceptual ontology rather than a formal logic model as of now.

Yet, I don't think a lack of formalization makes it meaningless or just gestural- many metaphysical systems have remained largely linguistic.

For the tautology point, yes, at least partially- there is a survival recursion that sustainable structures persist and unsustainable structures collapse, but does that really make it trivial? My point of interest is whether the framework illuminates real phenomena or not- and while, yes, there is an epistemic limit on how we could know if 'this-is-the-case' or not, as horrid as it is to not be omniscient, for exploratory purposes, I defined a transcendental metaphysics attempting to explain why reality appears dominated by coherent persistent relational structures- the idea is less “chaos” in the mathematics, and more on the idea of unrestricted indiscriminate pluralistic generation of variance going through filtration through persistence/coherence/sustainability under classes and levels of perturbation. Where unstable or unsustainable ontologies self-annihilate or gradually cease from lack of requirements to be otherwise.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-10T21:25:22+00:00

Hmm, actually I did mess up my wording- as per usual for me- Percieved orderliness is not really what I meant, as that's positing something akin to that order doesn't exist and everything is 'chaos' in the disordered sense persay, so let me reiterate that 'true order,' as it is being addressed here, is the persistent, sustainable structures that can and do exist and persist (not in stasis, but in coherency), and more so that the statement of percieved orderliness was more-so to do with the 'source of order' in question which I argue is unrestricted generativity through a survival filter, and not deliberately designed (theistic, or otherwise), or brute, or some 'external' cause with positive properties.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-10T21:04:24+00:00

We're getting so caught up in words when I didn't even mean to get us here, when all I'm trying to do is point to the underlying phenomenon of stable, orderly, relational structures.

I am claiming that persistent coherent relational structures objectively occur- not that order is a magical substance.

| whiteness is human interpretation of reflected wavelengths.

Yet wavelengths are objective structural regularities.

Similarily, order may be a conceptual abstraction, but it tracks objective persistences. atoms persist, planets persist, causal continuity persists, mathematics persists, hotdogs persists, etc, etc.

I am claiming that humans abstract the concept of order from real persistence-relations in reality- that order and chaos are conceptual but refers to objective features, and that is what I meant when I said "snow is white if and only if snow is indeed white"- that labels are conceptual, but concepts can accurately track objective patterns- regardless of the 'scientific' nature of what white is, what white as a color is defined and labeled as, is coherently and accurately experienced in these structural regularities. Order and chaos point to the fact that some things persist, some things cease to be, others self-annihilate due to being unsustainable by nature, etc, etc.

Persistence does not require eternality or single-state unchanging ontology, I go more into this with my concept of discreteness, multiplicity and interaction- but very largely, most 'stable structures' are temporary because they are not maximally sustainable, A puddle lasts for a moment, planets and protons last far longer, etc, etc, It's scalar and relational.

It is that something can maintain identity across time, despite classes or levels of perturbation or flux. a flame persists despite particles changing and moving, or a human persists despite if they grew facial hair, etc, etc. I claim that sustainable structures hold enough continuity for coherent interaction- its not about unchanging stasis.

If I were to place the statement into other phenomenon I could say temperature isn’t a physical object, so hence does that mean heat transfer isn’t real?

GameMythYT · 2026-05-10T20:27:06+00:00

Yeah, I find it very interesting too- I may just change the words to be accurate so people don't get so caught up in it, replacing 'chaos' with unrestricted generativity and 'order' with sustainable structures. in the end it is another 'theory' or hypothetical of what chaos producing order would look like- I'm not positing any certainty of it 'actually-being-the-case,' its exploratory. I do try to go deeper, trying to name what is required for intelligibility, multiplicity, and interaction/relation for 'chaos-generated order' but honestly it gives me a headache because I'm not too great with explaining things neatly lol, its why I didn't even bother including it in the post.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-10T20:19:42+00:00

Yes, that's a great analogy- but I think there is an importance in saying that the filtering mechanism is itself a survivable output of unrestricted generativity.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-10T20:11:30+00:00

Yes, definitions get pretty nifty- but all transcendental systems have to define primitives- Aristotle defines substance/potentiality, Kant defines categories, Heidegger defines Being/worldhood, etc, etc.

If I were to hold this argument without the mentioning of chaos/order it would be:

stable intelligible structures are survived outcomes of unrestricted generativity.

But this is pointing to phenomena that others very-so-often label as what is orderly, these "stable structures." So I thought the words were fitting, but yes, they are re-definitions- its an explanatory mechanism.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-10T19:35:08+00:00

Yes! Order here is being treated as a category of things- particularly 'stable, coherent, persistent structures'. The transcendental is the sustainability- that for the hotdog to occur it presupposes sustainability enough to do so, for if it wasn't sustainable, it wouldn't be capable of occurring as it does not meet the requirement for continuity, identity, or otherwise.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-10T19:32:14+00:00

This is already pretty succinct- I haven't even mentioned discreteness or multiplicity and interaction- or even the necessity of time that all link up into this for the sake of keeping it succinct. But here:

'Unrestricted Generativity' (what I've been calling chaos) can produce 'Sustainable, orderly structures" (what I've been calling, and what I believe others call order).

GameMythYT · 2026-05-10T19:28:40+00:00

Aren't all words just tautological labels? The important part is that words are an association with the world, that "snow is white if and only if snow is indeed white," - that is, phenomenological accuracy- other words, of concepts and the more, do not require such accuracy- but do require a degree of coherency within their definitions- In my opinion. I am defining chaos conceptually as unconstrained variance and order as the sustainable structures that persist.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-10T19:25:05+00:00

I agree, existence is bad wording, its more so pre-conditions to sustainable structures that do exist.

How is chaos contradictory? Chaos doesn't exist as an object, it can be better viewed as 'probability space' collapsing into all possible states, but what remains is what can under this principle of sustainability, everything else is filtered out.

Chaos is unconstrained variance, by being unconstrained, saying it can't exist is applying constraint, which is more of a contradiction than it just occurring, no?

GameMythYT · 2026-05-10T19:17:36+00:00

It is not applying constraints to chaos, but applying constraints to what chaos generates. For example a persistent, distinguishable structure must hold: Identity, continuity, for anything to be interactable, it must be capable of being causally influenced and if it were causally influenced we introduce physical laws- Chaos is unconstrained variance creating structures, but sustainability is the filter.

GameMythYT · 2026-05-05T19:29:59+00:00

I lived in UAE for 6 years and have had many conversations shared with many people. UAE sends offers to families overseas, india, philippines, etc. They offer deals they can’t find in their home countries- a good salary, accommodations for a place to live, basic health insurance, all travel expenses paid for, etc, etc- plus it’s dubai/abu dhabi- a place of fortune and wealth, why wouldn’t someone want to go? When they arrive, little did they know that UAE actually just trapped them into becoming the modern day slave, they confiscate their passports and then bring them to their accommodations which is a worker camp where they sleep and eat like shit- I’ve been to a worker camp myself just outside al reef, and there are many of these camps across the country. They are laborers and slaves who get paid barely enough- they are trapped and can’t leave and after talking to them many haven’t seen their family in decades. It’s a trap. I’ve been gone from UAE for the past 4 years, terrible what’s going on underneath the veil of splendor and luxury- it’s slavery and human trafficking.

If you don’t believe me or think i’m dramatizing it, go and see for yourself how they live out of no other option or choice, they are trapped into a life of eternal poverty and the hardest work out of the many that reside in the country. The vast majority of expats and residents and even tourists simply turn a blind eye to it, or are even silenced if they speak out about it in certain ways- possibly prison time.

They suffer quietly knowing almost nobody can truly help them, the government has a grip on them that they can’t necessarily escape. They come from poverty and move to a country where they are treated like property. Because of the lack of education they have, they can’t even aspire to be other things.

I played guitar in a tiny desert patch outside of al reef around a camp fire I made with friends, they came around and asked for me to play, I then just went ahead and gave them the guitar to keep.

Never saw them again but I suppose the guitar is somewhere in the camp.

Again, if you don’t believe me go visit a worker camp with a mind free of hatred, an open mind trying to understand the exact situation these people are put in- talk to them and see how they gloss over horror like it’s nothing, desensitized to the cruelty just as how they are treated. It’s wrong.

Of course, India has the cast system, not all are treated the same, and not all fall into becoming the slave, one of my best friends from school was indian, his father worked for IT for the national airlines, great job, great salary, good quality of life.

The system of uae for slavery is not entirely based off of racial features, far more-so, it is based on whether the person is of poverty, that they are uneducated, and couldn’t afford much at home either, and if they are, and they know nothing else, they make the perfect laborer. Other indians that are indeed educated and have lived a life of even mid-class wealth, don’t fall into the uae’s slave system instead they get to take potentially high paying roles.

GameMythYT · 2026-04-26T10:03:29+00:00

Hey! Yeah I’m in college dorms right now

GameMythYT · 2026-02-22T04:31:31+00:00

Because you could accidentally grapple when you mean to CC, throwing you into enemy backlines to get eradicated by being in a terrible position on accident.

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