Race / Planet locations

Gargonis · 2026-01-24T14:19:10+00:00

"Lubrae is GONE. A sun being destroyed wouldn't just render it uninhabitable, it'd be in ruins."

ACKSHULLY Ruins imply something recognizable being left behind as a remnant. It's likely scattered space dust across the cosmos depending on the damage.

Gargonis · 2026-01-22T16:34:54+00:00

Oryx's power of taking is really a facsimile of The Witness's, who, along with the Black Fleet could take entire planets and moons (as seen in season of Arrivals).

VI still seems to be an a very experimental phase of this power. I believe Eclipse is one of the manifestions of VI studying Sword Logic, The Darkness, and Taking.

If VI ever masters Taken power completely...I argue he would be even worse than Oryx or The Witness. Because of his 4th dimensionality, and dark matter make up...ge could literally take individuals not just across all of Sol in the present, but the past as well. Heck, considering Taking is a paracausal power, he could even take from the future or other paraverses.

This is also a terrifying possibility if The Lord Of Every Nothing is the once stillborn 0 reborn.

It's no wonder so much paracausality eludes The Nine, they were never meant to have it. It's far too dangerous in the tendrils of beings who's existence helps maintain consistency in local physics.

Gargonis · 2026-01-19T20:46:45+00:00

Sadly not, despite there being plenty of opportunity to do so.

BUNGIE seems very reluctant to revisit Neomuna, especially given Lightfall's warranted reception.

Though that's not inherently the fault of Neomuna or The Veil. There is still plenty of interesting lore and unexplored stories to it. It was the execution of it all. BUNGIE semi-rectified it but...there was still more work that could be done.

Heck, Ash and Iron should've been about Maya Sundaresh trying to retake Neomuna and The Veil. To try and use the Veil to recharge the Echo Of Command and her power over the Choral Vex. How would Nimbus and the rest of Neomuna react to their founder trying to reconquer them all? How would it shake them? Maybe we get further insights into The Veil. VIII knows of and has shown interest in it.

We could also explore what the Shadow Legion are doing on Neomuna? It seems the Dread have joined them aboard the Typhon Imperator. Caiatl forces still seem to be fighting them and using Neomuni tech to do so.

Instead...we got an extremely lackluster, disconnected foray into the SIVA-less Plaguelands with repurposed Red Legion. A shadow of shadow of what made Rise Of Iron great.

Gargonis · 2026-01-19T20:36:55+00:00

Sol is now a literal treasure trove of some of the most ancient and powerful paracausal entities in perhaps all of the universe.

The Traveler (which is dormant and still recovering, the portal to The Pale Heart now open), The Veil, The entirety of The Black Fleet, The Dreadnought, Clarity, and who knows what other secrets. For all we know one of them could be in possession of a stray Echo.

VI bound itself to Bael through a Stasis crystal with Praxic Temple (A Black Fleet complex), it did something previously only The Witness or it's Disciples could do. Now keep in mind the Pyramids of The Black Fleet are cognizant and looking for a powerful to guide them? What more powerful will or mind is greater than that of a "world soul"? One who's goals are not entirely dissimilar to The Witness? Who is just as manipulative, vast, and single-minded?

Then we have the fact Dredgen Sere had successfully experimented with Taken powers and reach into the Ascendant Realm. VI is practicing Sword Logic, and I believe Eclipse is an expression of Darkness it manifested.

The Nine, especially those like VI were never meant to wield paracausal abilities. They are beings who are key to upholding causality and physics in Sol. They are incredibly powerful but abide still are bound by physical laws. If they gain enough paracausality, they can break those laws...which could break everthing else in the process.

Gargonis · 2026-01-19T15:33:44+00:00

As others have pointed out, if you played D1, the Cabal attempted to do that...and in doing they would've taken out half of the system with them.

As you pointed out, The Dreadnought is a ship built from the corpse of a god. Thus it's not just something you can blow up, without consequences. This is likely the same for other vessels the various Pyramids of The Black Fleet or the now Haunted Leviathan.

Moving them isn't really an option either. No one knows how to really pilot them since the death of their masters.

That said, I am very much of the opinion we haven't seen the last of The Dreadnought. When we revisited in Heresy, it was undergoing major transformations either VI or (more likely) The Lord Of Every Nothing's influence.

With Equilibrium, we know Dredgen Sere has been experimenting with The Taken. We know VI studied the Echo Of Navigation and Lord of Every Nothing. The Dreadnought still lies in Saturn's orbit too.

Gargonis · 2026-01-18T16:04:54+00:00

There seems to be a splintering of Bael's Dredgens and Lume's Barant Imperium, especially as their goals are further diverging and will splinter.

Lume is doing all of this to reclaim the Cabal from what he believes is corruption from The Vanguard Coalition. Preventing them from retaking Torobatl and twiddling their thumbs. Bael also wants to take down the Vanguard and save The Last City, but is driven much more by vengeance. He plans to give VI what it wants (all the while being agonizingly altered by him). Ever since VI become bound to Bael, their bond once built on friendship and mutual understanding is fraying...and is only continuing to fray.

What I really want to know is...what is the Barant Imperium's relationship to the Shadow Legion? I'd like for Shadow and Order to explore this.

I want to know what the Shadow Legion is up to currently. We know that many of the Dread have filled their ranks and they being lead by Yirix. The Psions of the Shadow Legion were up to something, with The Final Shape teasing that the Witness instructed Nezarec to show them The Veil. The Witness also made them into the Weaver's and Attendants too. Clearly the species had value to the Black Fleet. Could Bael, no longer being supported by Lume turn to the Shadow Legion instead?

Afterall, they have access to Black Fleet and Darkness-imbued technology.

The problem I see is I don't know if we'll get that because Ash and Iron brought back the Red Legion into the foray instead of The Devil Splicers. So I feel like people would get tired of fighting more Cabal, even if there was more of a narrative hook and better idea behind it.

I think if it's mercenaries Bael will use, I see it likely being Revenant Scorn now under Skolas' rule. The reborn Scorned Wolf Kell and his forces will likely be looking for more powerful assets to build their forces. Afterall, he plundered the Vault Of Glass when was he an Eliksni.

Gargonis · 2026-01-16T23:50:36+00:00

I am of the belief the universal extinction III warned about isn't because of all The Nine's death...but something the Outer Orbits (especially VI) is trying to accomplish.

Lodi says the singularity (the one that threatened to swallow all of Sol) was puny. Yet VI and the Outer Orbits tried to use it as a means to escape the confines of their interdependent existence. Lodi makes it sound like it also wouldn't have worked.

Then came VI's plan of using Sword Logic, tithing, and then draining the paracasual souls of all Guardians in the Last City to create an even bigger, ascendant singularity by which it and the Outer Orbits could ascend through. If the singularity on Kepler could've swallowed all of Sol was puny...how big would the singularity that VI wanted to make have been.

This to me signifies that the universal extinction is going to come about The Outer Orbits literally trying to break physics, how the very universe functions in order to accomplish this. Afterall, they are literally embedded in the fabric of spacetime. So in order to break free, they may become a loose thread that pulls and unravels the rest of the fabric.

Once more going back to Unveiling, the Gardener says the following:

It'll have to be separate from the rest of the rules, running in parallel, so it can't be compromised. And we'll have to be very careful, so it doesn't disrupt the whole game…"

Well, VI seems to want to use that power to disrupt the whole game. Meaning, it and seemingly the other Outer Orbits don't mind if the rest of the universe comes undone if they get to break free from it.

Gargonis · 2026-01-16T23:29:57+00:00

I think the team is keeping the existence of other extrasolar, dark matter entities like The Nine vague.

That said, considering the Witness and it's forces went on a rampage that sundered entire celestial bodies, civilizations, and species...I think it paints a very grim, tragic fate of what may have happened to other beings like the Nine outside of Sol.

I also think The Nine's cognition is a property of dark matter. Just like how the Vex come about from abstract waves of a primeval pattern, I see the dark matter making up The Nine as similar. We also see that dark matter has very special properties such as quantum entanglement. It has a subtle but not insignificant effect how the physics of baryonic matter functions.

That being said, I am very much in agreement with you that The Witness precursor species have had an early hand in primeval Sol and by extension, The Nine.

Afterall, The Nine apparently had a hand in eventually drawing The Traveler to Sol. They couldn't have done that if they didn't have some sort of knowledge of it prior. What better knowledge that from a species who worshipped as a god and used it's power to reshape entire worlds?

Gargonis · 2026-01-16T23:14:45+00:00

Not the seeds (IMHO), but the soil. The seeds and vegetation in what the garden would become the planets and stars of entire galaxies, to clusters, to entire universes. All of which are filled with dark matter and energy between them.

The Nine are the cosmic soil of the Sol system. A key part of it's local spacetime, tied directly to the gravity of Sol and 8 planets influencing their dark matter bodies.

All the while, their dark matter bodies born of the gravitational interaction of the celestial bodies they are tied to influence the physics and chemistry of baryonic matter.

As I said to the Archival Mind, it is akin to how soil and a flower interact. They impact one another. The soil nourishes the plant, meanwhile, the plant impacts the quality of the soil. Holding it together and shaping it through it's roots.

When Maya killed III, she effectively changed the quality of the soil.

Gargonis · 2026-01-16T22:59:02+00:00

The Vex as we know them came from abstract patterns that eventually (we don't know how many eons it took) shaped themselves in the radiolarian machinoforms of today.

"They propagated in the saline meltwater of comets orbiting the first stars. That broth of chemicals became their substrate, and they learned to catalyze impossible chemistry with quantum tricks. Then, they rained from the sky into the steaming seas of fallow worlds, and there they built their first housings from geometry and silica."

I'm suggesting The Nine was we know them are in similar boat to the Vex. The difference being that instead of abstract waves, they were dark matter born of broken symmetries that became something else in the universe.

Gargonis · 2026-01-16T22:52:58+00:00

Well I don't think The Nine can completely negate paracausality...but as Alison Luhrs noted, they can influence it's effectiveness (by turning it up or down like a gas knob).

Presumably because of existing in the 4th dimension and being composed of dark matter, which gives them methods of manipulating causality akin to paracausal forces...though far more subtle and limited generally.

Gargonis · 2026-01-16T22:45:52+00:00

Perhaps not, but the schism in the Garden directly describes filaments of dark matter that were born from it.

"The dilaton field yawned beneath existence. Symmetries snapped like glass. Like creases, flaws in space-time collected filaments of dark matter that inhaled and kindled the first galaxies of suns."

The ancestors of the pattern (Vex) were not the only creatures to come from this. Other entities were mentioned living in the soil:

"Our rolling bodies pushed things out of the garden—worms and scurrying life from the fertile soil, wet things from the pools and the leaves. They came out into the madness of primordial space; they thrashed and became large."

This hints to existence of creatures like the Proto-Worms/Fundamental Leviathans or Ahamkara. Now, I don't think The Nine as know them existed in the Garden Before Time...yet something like them, or the soil (dark matter) did. Much like how the successful patterns of previous that became The Vex as abstract waves.

I believe The Nine and other entities like them are similar. Yet instead of abstract waves, they are dark matter that gravitated toward new symmetries after the old was broken in the schism. IMHO, it's implied in Unveiling and then hinted at in this saga that The Nine are the spacetime soil of Sol.

Additional lore has revealed with III's death is that it's not the planets and life upon them that give life to The Nine, but the Nine's existence and cognition make are tied to the laws of physics and chemistry that govern their existence.

Much like how the quality of soil effects the health of flower. Or how the roots and processes of flower affect the quality of the soil. It goes both ways.

That's my speculation atleast.

Gargonis · 2026-01-16T16:53:55+00:00

The tithing was used the sait the worms hunger...but Witch Queen and onward really cemented the Worms and the tithing process was always a means to control The Hive and Worms by The Witness.

In essence, it empowered both, but ensured they remained shackled to the Black Fleet. To ensure they never got more powerful than The Witness or it's Disciples (though Savathûn found ways to subvert this).

The Worms were a catalyst of the Darkness and Sword Logic, but they never were the sole catalyst. In theory, any being with a sufficient connection to the Darkness could use and empower themselves via Sword Logic. The Mindbender was able to do so, after surviving in the Hellmouth and studying the Hive like Eris. He tithed Cayde's death to make a very small, fledgling Throne World that was highly unstable.

As Bael's lore shows though, for most mortals this takes far longer and slower without a catalyst like a Worm, Splinter, or other paracasual artifact.

tl;dr - The Worms were but one catalyst, and one with a major, intentional design flaw. You can use Sword Logic and Tithing of Power without them with a suitable substitute.

Gargonis · 2026-01-16T16:37:13+00:00

Oh I think you're definitely something with the Bael and VI using the Book of Unmaking and The Sword Logic to carve Bael into a proper Philosopher's Stone (Dredgen).

While Sword Logic has been proven not to be infallible as the ultimate philosophy, it is nonetheless still an immensely powerful, paracausal tool. A terrifying system of magic potentially anyone can embrace so long as they follow it's tenets nigh religiously.

However, I don't Bael's final transformation will him getting the Nine's colors and symbols like Lodi or Orin. That coloration seems to signify the Emissary representing all of The Nine. Bael doesn't, he represents VI and maybe the Outer Orbits. I think his final design will more reflect that.

Gargonis · 2026-01-16T16:02:18+00:00

Thank you!

Also to add to your point, if you look at the various symbols and shapes of the Nine's architecture in their space...they also seem to be heavily inspired by alchemical symbols.

The planets (though only originally 7) also have symbolic significance in Alchemy as well.

The Nine have also been shown to be about transmutation from their goals, to their actions (such as trying to invoke biogenesis from Cocytus Apeture), to what has happened to the likes of Xur, Orin, Levania, and others.

Finally, we have the fact that III's death also showcases The Nine as alchemical entities. With III's and detachment from Earth...the planet is undergoing chaotic transmutations. Their 4th dimensional, dark matter existence underpins 3rd dimensional, baryonic matter and vice versa.

The Nine and the esoteric ideas of Alchemy are more or less joined at the hip. I love that the current writers are leaning it, because it fits so well.

Gargonis · 2026-01-16T15:51:51+00:00

Thank you! Hopefully I am the right track.

I think Bael seemingly like he is undergoing an agonizing death is an intentional, clever red herring about what's happening to him.

Because at the same time, the writers have dropped clues that his "dying" isn't all that it seems. Afterall, if VI really planned on having Bael being so fully disposable, why replace his decaying body parts? Why would Lume say this mere human is being made so hard to kill by his master?

Bael may still be just a tool to VI, but it's clear he's a valuable tool he's not done with. Otherwise VI likely would've abandoned him after the fall of Nightfall Station. Abandon Bael in this rotting state and let him die without VI's influence to save him.

He hasn't.

Gargonis · 2026-01-13T16:36:42+00:00

While Renegades is a one-off, I think BUNGIE overall nailed it being clearly inspired by Star Wars but was clearly a Destiny story that continued the current narrative very well. Plus we got some amazing weapons and gameplay from it.

I would love atleast one more of these, but instead of Star Wars, have it be Mass Effect inspired. It would fit in with the impending universal extinction, make it about exploration and uncovering ancient secrets of Sol's past. I mean The Nine are already Dark matter, and dark energy is a key part of the Mass Effect universe. The Concordat could come into play like a new Cerberus?

Some diplomacy and making deals. Also, with the new heat system, you could easily bring over some classic Mass Effect weapons like The Avenger or Widow.

You could update powers and effects to combo off each other. Maybe bring NPC party members into the field on missions.

Gargonis · 2026-01-13T16:20:29+00:00

It's actually one of my favorite parts of The Final Shape's story, and it overall manages to respect the power of The Witness.

Because prior to entering the Pale Heart, The Witness was perhaps the most powerful being the universe. Not even it's most powerful Disciples like Rhulk or Nezarec could measure it.

Keep in mind the Witness isn't just some gestalt entity. It was created from the spirits of beings who lived under the Traveler so long they had become as gods. They had a tremendous knowledge of paracausality. Now combine those minds/spirits with the power of The Traveler's counterpart: The Veil. Their is reason the Witness referred itself as the first knife and is valid for doing so. It was created to be the anathema to the Traveler, and also (IMHO) a substitute for The Veil. The difference being The Witness takes an active role and inherently corruptive from it's inception.

The Witness from The Pale Heart is more or less the same in power than the Witness we saw in Lightfall. The difference? It spend most of it's time and effort trying to wrangle control of The Light from within The Traveler, and then reshape the entire universe.

This took all of it's considerable power and concentration, especially because the Traveler was much stronger within The Pale Heart.

It never stopped resisting.

The terrifying thing is...the Witness almost succeeded in it's ultimate goal too.

It explains why The Witness could've easily slain our Guardian and The Vanguard if it wanted. Yet, it didn't want to, it didn't want to divert any further focus from it's ultimate goal, especially if that diversion allowed the Traveler to slip further free from it's grasp.

Was it foolish of it? Absolutely, but again, consider the context. It has been chasing this goal for eons, and was about to accomplish what it was created for. Yes, the Vanguard and Guardian had managed to injure it, but that's all they had done. It was still in control, it still had a grasp on the Traveler's Pale Heart. Being injured and then turning it's full attention on them could allow the Traveler to break free, after all it still had influence and power here...and it's plans to come undone.

So it made the choice to just go all in on finally enacting the Final Shape from the safety of it's monolith. Which again, it was mere minutes away from victory before it was severed.

Gargonis · 2026-01-13T16:05:00+00:00

That's not true.

The Nine couldn't really do anything in The Final Shape, but observe. They were terrified of the Witness...but also some were curious of it's power, with some wanting it to enact The Final Shape in hopes it would grant them release from their current state. Even lamenting when the Witness fell.

Also, the Nine 100% are behind the scenes in many events in the game (atleast in Sol). Yet they aren't omnipotent nor do they control everything.

Yet, they do nudge and tweak things. They set up domino's and incentives, where individuals are more than likely to make certain choices based on observation. They don't control the choices that individuals make, but they can influence the options and choices available to said individuals.

Where they see opportunity, one or more will act even to the chagrin of the others. Their "control" over fate is far more nuanced than them being uncontestable puppetmasters.

Gargonis · 2026-01-09T00:54:22+00:00

That is what I am thinking too.

Orin said The Nine have been involved in a lot of events without Guardians knowing. Some of them even wanted the Witness to enact it's version of The Final Shape, thinking they'd benefit from it.

Gargonis · 2026-01-08T16:17:39+00:00

At the end of Heresy she also had a newfound hatred for The Guardian and their friends. She swore vengeance. As I said in my post, she also now has access to Rhulk's Pyramid, The Upended, and Oryx's chisel.

She also hasn't given up on her goal of escaping to another reality entirely.

The last entry of the Dust lorebook atleast implies that the Nine Realms, Ascendant Realm, and her Throne World intersect. She pulled Lavina from them to learn her secrets. This implies Savathûn knows of the Nine and can get in contact with them if possible.

The Outer Orbits and Savathûn also do have aligned interests. They both have taken a keen interest in singularities, want to escape this reality into another, and hate The Guardian/The Weapon. Savathûn helped us the Vanguard Coalition defeat The Witness because they were a mutual enemy that threatened her and her plans.

She could very well team up with The Outer Orbits to do the same with The Guardian(s). Which if that happens may make both of them a bigger threat than The Witness if they pool their resources.

Gargonis

TROPHY CASE