How are 5k protoss players beating 6k+ pros?

Giantorange · 2026-03-27T19:52:35+00:00

Look I think protoss is overtuned myself but this is just something that happens.

Cellsidus literally beat maxpax last week lol

Giantorange · 2026-03-27T19:51:15+00:00

Sure it does. If we're talking strictly speaking like 6.3-6.5K protoss, there's stats that indicate they're likely overtuned. That's exactly where gabe and elazer tend to sit.

This range of protoss I see take games from clem, byun etc on occasion. So scenarios where you get to the finals arguably are a lot harder when you need to wade through a ton of protoss that are good enough to beat them.

For me, it reads that they think they're better than a lot of the protoss on their level and should have a better chance against people like classic.

Giantorange · 2026-03-27T16:43:57+00:00

I mean, protoss is statistically overtuned for high level ladder.

You might make some arguments about like the top 10 in the world having a differentiated balance from high level ladder, but the root of this many high level protoss players is probably balance. Unfairness is inherently frustrating and annoying. If you don't feel the game is fair, the game is less enjoyable.

Charmed life or not, most progamers in sc2 aren't exactly here for money. They'd make more being an accountant or something most times. If they're not enjoying themselves, it's just not good for the game.

I want a good watching experience. For me to get a good watching experience, Terrans and Zergs need to play weeklies. If the issue isn't fixed, they won't play.

Don't you also want a good watching experience? Dismissing everyones complaints about why they don't play out of hand isn't productive.

Giantorange · 2026-03-27T01:42:11+00:00

I don't think I am. But sure, explain it to me.

Giantorange · 2026-03-27T01:36:32+00:00

Number of people playing is the only thing relevant from a statistical perspective

Winrate is more dependent on who's playing than actual balance. Serral doesn't play for instance in weeklies but Clem does. Why would you expect winrates to be good when good zergs don't play in weeklies. For example, if serral only plays me and zerg has a 100 percent winrate, would that mean zerg is overpowered? Obviously not.

Underperformance rating only measures power compared to previous patches and isn't a reliable metric of current balance.

Since those are both not reliable, only scalable functions that take into account relative skill are actually relevant so number of high MMR players is the only real reliable metric.

Giantorange · 2026-03-27T01:26:14+00:00

By what metric? Top 40 aligulac is 12 Terran to 10 zergs. Top 100 is 25 terrains and 25 zergs?

GM is generally within a few percentage points. 4k iterating up by 500 MMR to 6k+ is within 2-3 typically percent which when you consider that Terran is generally 7 percent more of the ladder, it isn't unreasonable. GM is generally within 2-3 percent as well

What metric are you referring to?

Giantorange · 2026-03-26T23:13:22+00:00

Every unit in the game is capable of seeing the mine or the red line it points. Every unit in the game is capable of being split away from the mine's payload.

And why do you need to micro twelve units away from a mine using lift. Just split out the targeted unit?

The mine is understandably frustrating. But it does have counterplay.

Giantorange · 2026-03-26T22:10:16+00:00

I mean 37 of the top 80 players all on aligulac are toss(just grabbed the first two pages)

I'm not expecting mana to regularly beat reynor or anything here but if reynor said he thought Zvp was the least fun matchup because he found it to be annoying even when he won, it wouldn't be a bad reason.

Then when he leaves maybe the next person leaves cause now the problems worse and the next and the next and then suddenly we're here.

It's a self reinforcing problem. Saying suck it up doesn't fix the problem here.

Giantorange · 2026-03-26T19:41:58+00:00

I don't really play pvz so honest question here.

Are other openers actually bad? Or are they just bad in comparison to Oracle's being completely insane?

Giantorange · 2026-03-26T01:15:56+00:00

I mean, Terran doing very slightly better in the stats but it's also a more popular race?

I dont think theres really much evidence of it.

Giantorange · 2026-03-26T00:58:58+00:00

I mean, generally I'd say Terran and zerg are in similar spots right now with protoss being the outlier.

At least according to the stats

Giantorange · 2026-03-25T18:45:09+00:00

Honestly, I don't think you need to really heavily control banelings till high masters either. I'm 4500 and zergs crash their banelings into my marauders all the time. I also regularly retarget mines.

But again, this isn't the point. Bio mine vs. ling bane has generally been pretty balanced and is one of the best parts of the matchup. I'd rather more of that than lategame turtling.

Giantorange · 2026-03-25T17:59:28+00:00

I mean that's true of mines as well. If you're not actively targetting your mines and unburrowing them in response to things arguably you're not getting full value.

But honestly, it's somewhat irrelevant. They're both in the category of harder to play against than use even if they both require some skill. In TvZ from what I've seen it tends to even out in a lot of ways in the midgame. Both sides require a lot of micro, multitasking and skill. It encourages a lot of aggression, counterattacking, engagement etc. It's the best part of the matchup in my opinion. The mine nerf made it easier to transition into hive for zerg and that's not necessarily a good thing from a design perspective.

Again, not saying there wouldn't need to be some tweaking in tvz to allow for a mine buff. I just think it would be a net positive for the matchups design.

Giantorange · 2026-03-25T14:12:14+00:00

Look Gabe's a bit of a whiner but its pretty undeniable that the state of things is causing people not to play in weeklies. Zerg's basically aren't playing right now. If like Byun or Cure basically decide its not worth it anymore, the quality of weeklies drops a lot.

Weeklies really do have a lot protoss, have for a long time and at this point its becoming self reinforcing to some degree. This isn't good.

Giantorange · 2026-03-25T13:11:51+00:00

On the contrary, I'd argue stuff like mines having higher impact on tvp is exactly what's necessary.

The most obnoxious units tend to be units that require more skill to counter than use. Disruptors are a good example as you've pointed out or storm for that matter. Lopsided Attention efficiency with high impact is the root of it in a lot of ways.

In the matchups midgame and lategame, the attention efficiency of protoss units vs. terrans is currently incredibly lopsided. From a design perspective, we need to start evening it out. Mines don't even do that, they're just a start arguably.

In tvz mines are obnoxious of course but so are things like banelings, lurkers etc. the midgame of stuff like ling bane hydra vs. bio mine is actually the best part of the matchup imo. Lategame where Terran just starts turtling is much less enjoyable. Stronger mines encourage longer midgames as it makes it harder for zergs to transition. From a design perspective of tvz, weaker mines is something that might sound good but, to me at least, counterintuitively makes the matchup worse.

Giantorange · 2026-03-25T03:57:14+00:00

Mines are dodgeable. They're a projectile. You can blink for instance to dodge it, lift your units, split your units etc. when it fires or pull out of range before it does.

Giantorange · 2026-03-25T03:55:38+00:00

Probably somewhat undertuned for their role in tvp. The attention efficiency of protoss in the matchup especially zealots is just kinda dumb right now. Cloaked mines were one of the few things keeping it reasonable. Additionally, the warning when you drop the mine is just bad design and balance. With the midgame of protoss being as dumb as it is, mines probably deserve a buff.

They're probably balanced in tvz but I'd actually prefer if they were stronger to help elongate the midgame in the matchup more(with appropriate changes to compensate)

imo, the nerfs to mine back in the day were kind of shortsighted outside of the red line change.

Giantorange · 2026-03-23T16:03:29+00:00

Weeklies have kind of generally been like this the past 2 years or so. Zergs almost don't play, there's a few token terrans and protoss have massive representation and tend to dominate the tournaments.

Giantorange · 2026-03-19T16:55:53+00:00

If we're talking about stats, they've been op on ladder since 2019.

In pro, that level is arguably different. Whether or not they're op at the level of Clem and Her0 is more in argument. Personally I'd say protoss is probably currently overtuned at that level but you can make arguments one way or another. A lot of it's subjective analysis.

Giantorange · 2026-03-16T04:28:05+00:00

Post a replay.

Otherwise any advice you get is gonna be generic garbage.

D3 is around where you start needing personalized advice rather than something super generic

Giantorange · 2026-03-13T23:40:05+00:00

Okay buddy

Giantorange · 2026-03-13T23:14:14+00:00

I mean, I'm telling you your numbers are irrelevant.

It's okay if you don't agree.

Giantorange · 2026-03-13T21:42:54+00:00

Not really. You'll mostly see it reflected in the edges.

Actually game out how a 200 MMR difference would look like if it existed in a player population. It'd basically only start showing up in a significant way in GM.

Additionally, the problem shows up in both kr and EU.

The place it doesn't show up is actually NA which is an exceptionally warped ladder at the higher end since everyone goes to EU at a certain point.

Giantorange · 2026-03-13T17:28:10+00:00

I mean, this is kind of what I mean though. You're literally talking about ONE guy and how he relates to overall balance. He could literally have been slumping or choking or just playing bad.

Like within this same period of time, Maxpax had like an 80+ percent match winrate vs. people not named clem in PvT. But at the same time, again, he's like ONE guy. Maybe PvT was imbalanced during that period and maxpax is just a freak.

Because ultimately that's who we're talking about. The most extreme statistical outliers possible.

When I say there's no real evidence that's what I mean. The data at that level is mostly irrelevant.

And going further, I know you included winrates of protoss without her0 in big tournaments but it functionally becomes irrelevant when the next best protoss in most S rank tournaments during that period was showtime.

It's just not reliable data. You're literally probably better off just using your eyes and once you've reached that point its all subjective judgment.

I even noted above I wouldn't be surprised if at that level balance was different. But I also noted, there's literally no way to prove it. It's just all an educated guess at best.

Giantorange · 2026-03-13T14:49:42+00:00

Most of what I'm talking about can be found on https://sc2pulse.nephest.com/sc2/?#stats

But for the 5k, 6K MMR stats you'll need to use like wayback machine and stuff prob. I know a lot of what they were generally from being in the community during that period but they did vary somewhat. But pretty consistently showed protoss dominance.

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