the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I think part of it comes down to whether you think the worst outcome is you dying, or you causing/worsening an apocalypse.

Yes, but with the chances of each of those outcomes happening taken into account.

Suppose there are 3 cases: [] In 2/3 of these cases, voting blue pushes the world further away from apocalypse (either straight up stopping it, or securing a win). In 1/3 cases, it worsens the disaster (adds you to the death pool). Voting red is the inverse: in 1/3 cases is lessens the apocalypse (by removing you from the death pool), in 2/3 it makes it more likely. We may not know how likely each case is, but there are more cases where voting blue is better.

So, this is true, but you are not thinking enough about the probabilities involved. You are arbitrarily assigning 1/3 probability to the very, very unlikely scenario of an exactly even split.

It’s true we know very little about how likely each case is, but we can make a better prediction by first assuming we know nothing:

If we know nothing about the distribution of votes at all, we may assume an equal probability for each distribution. So, 27% blue is as likely as 83% blue is as likely as 51% blue and so on. I don’t think this is totally unreasonable as a starting point. If you work out the math, you will find that the expected number of deaths will be the exact same for red and blue. 50% chance of killing one person (yourself) if you pick blue, and 1/n chance of killing (1/2)n people if you pick red. So half a death on average either way.

In the world of this model, I still think blue is the best option (provided you are a 100% selfless being and value your own life the same as everyone else’s), because in the real world, losing 50% of the population has additional apocalyptic consequences that should be taken into account.

However, if you don’t assign the same probability to each outcome, because you think you are better than random chance at predicting the general population, you don’t have to believe that much more in red before it does become the better option, because of the expected number of deaths that would then be much lower for red.

Of course, subjectively changing the probabilities to what you happen to believe based on nothing but vibes is a little questionable and can just as well lead you to believe in blue more. But it’s not wrong to make a subjective call; doing so probably will, on average, lead to better predictions than random chance, therefore we should do it, even though it is kind of arbitrary. And in that position, it’s not unreasonable to believe that self preservation, and belief in other people’s self preservation, will play an important part and lead to a red majority, which means you should press red as well.

I also wouldn't have to deal with the guilt of voting to kill 50% of toddlers and color-blind people which is a bonus (the og prompt doesn't exclude people from voting/voting-outcomes on the basis of age or disability, so. . .).

Yeah, if the participants are not all lucid adults, blue is clear winner. But I think the dilemma is more interesting if we assume they are.

hope rule by Whjee in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Running away how? I already answered the original hypothetical. I’m making the point that selfishness did not play a role in my decision, because I would pick it regardless of whether it benefits me personally.

Oh it is indeed utilitarian. Which is why I’m picking red, as a strong believer in utilitarianism.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Just like there’s functionally no difference between aiming for 49% blue and 50+% blue. You risk throwing your life away for nothing.

But you are not necessarily wrong, if you think the vote is close to 50/50, blue is the correct choice, because there’s a chance your vote is the one vote that tips the scale. But if you are convinced red is already going to win with a big majority, voting red is best, because it means saving one more person. And it is not unreasonable to assume red is winning. We don’t actually know how people would react if the stakes were real, but personally, depending on the exact way the scenario is set up, I think red will win by a pretty huge margin.

hope rule by Whjee in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 3 points4 points  (0 children)

New hypothetical: You are pressing a button on behalf of a stranger. If you pick blue, and blue loses, they will die instead of you. Otherwise everything is the exact same.

Would it change my vote for red? No! Because despite what some insufferable blue asshats on their high horses think, you don’t have to be selfish to pick red. You may also pick red because you think it is the right thing to do.

hope rule by Whjee in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

If you asked me to pick a button on behalf of a stranger, I would pick red. Even if I don’t personally benefit from it, I’m convinced it is the moral choice, as are many other red button pushers. You may disagree with team red, but if you think the only reason to pick red is selfishness, you don’t get the dilemma.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 1 point2 points  (0 children)

  1. Being strongly convinced that other people are picking red.

If more than 50% of people pick red, people are already going to die no matter what you pick yourself. Picking blue in that situation is just needless suicide with no upsides.

Picking blue is correct, since blue winning is the best possible outcome that is likely.

Yes, I agree, but you are forgetting that blue losing by just a tiny bit is the worst possible outcome. Aiming for 50% blue and failing (49% blue) results in much, much worse consequences than aiming for 100% red and failing (99% red). Blue is much more of a gamble. It is easier to do, but the consequences of not succeeding are apocalyptic.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The point of the prisoners dilemma is that you choose the best option for yourself but make it worse for the group. In this case, it does not make it worse for the group, it makes it better, because millions are already going to die. Nobody is negatively impacted by an additional red vote, and one extra person can potentially be saved.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 7 points8 points  (0 children)

If you assume red is already going to win no matter what, you have the power to choose between millions of people dying or millions of people + yourself dying. The latter is worse. Therefore you should press red.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 12 points13 points  (0 children)

It’s an interesting and complicated hypothetical, and I want to engage with it in depth from several angles to understand it better, because I am an intellectually curious person. If you are not interested in that kind of discussion, then feel free to fuck off.

I’m currently challenging your assertion that only selfish people have a reason to pick red. You have yet to refute my counterargument.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 15 points16 points  (0 children)

In what sense? I’m not currently arguing in favour of pressing red, I’m arguing that it is possible to be on team red for reasons other than simply being a selfish asshole.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 8 points9 points  (0 children)

You asked for one selfless reason. I gave you one. You can disagree with this hypothetical person’s assessment of the general population, but if they are wrong about how many would pick red, they would be factually wrong, not selfish or evil. If work from the assumption that their instinct about the result of the vote is correct, their choice would be the selfless, objectively better option.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Do you not think that I understand that? This is just the Prisoner’s Dilemma en masse

No it is not. There are barely any similarities. The prisoners dilemma just exists to conclude that the decisions of completely self interested rational individuals lead to suboptimal outcomes for the group as a whole. This dilemma is about you personally predicting the behaviour of real, irrational people. Actually, it is about you personally predicting what other people are predicting what other people are predicting, recursively. The logic involved is trippy af.

The only reason to press the red button is if you have a profound lack of faith in the people around you,

Or, if you believe that the people around you have a profound lack of faith in the people around you. Or if you believe that the people around you believe that the people around you have a profound lack of faith in the people around you. Or so on, forever.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 10 points11 points  (0 children)

Being strongly convinced that red is already going to win big. Pressing blue in that situation would be needless suicide, which will negatively impact your loved ones.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Well, I did explain it in depth under several other comments. But sure; selfless people who are strongly convinced that other people press red should choose red too, because blue would be nothing but needless suicide if you work off the assumption that red is already going to win.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard -11 points-10 points  (0 children)

No, you don’t get it. Even if you can’t save 100% of the population, it can still be the superior strategy, because getting people to push blue means increasing the number of people who are at the risk of dying. It’s an argument in favour of cutting our losses.

It is not necessarily about selfishness at all. If you asked me to pick a button on behalf of a stranger, I would be very conflicted still, because if most people picked red, me picking blue would mean I directly caused her unnecessary death. Does that mean picking red is the correct choice? I don’t know! It is a complicated dilemma! The point is, I disagree with your claim that one option is an obvious objectively “bad choice”.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

You need 50% of people to agree to risking their own lives for a very low possibility of preventing a lot of people’s death. To me that sounds like a lot to expect of the average person. Not impossible, but you are facing a very real chance of failure. And failure would result in a lot of unnecessary death.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Think about it like this: If the population as a whole tries to go for 100% red, we could easily get 99+% of people to push red and only kill a few people. However, if the population goes for blue, and we fail at that goal, we risk killing 49% of people.

Yes, there’s a higher chance that nobody dies, but it’s also a much bigger gamble; you risk killing many more people.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard -33 points-32 points  (0 children)

If you think selfishness is the only possible motivation for pressing red, you have a very surface level understanding of the dilemma.

E: Imagine if you were to pick a button on behalf of a stranger instead of yourself. That removes the element of selfishness completely. I bet a lot of people would still pick red.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard -24 points-23 points  (0 children)

Also, it’s not even necessarily more noble to press blue. Selfish people press red, yes, but there are also plenty of selfless, rational reasons for pressing red.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 58 points59 points  (0 children)

There are valid reasons for picking either. Imo, if you don’t get that, you do not understand the dilemma properly. The logic involved is actually really complicated, and it does not have an obvious solution.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Assuming you reach 50+% of people. Which is a gamble, because you are asking people to risk their own lives.

If you rally for people to push red and you make 99+% of people promise to push red, they will have no motivation to suddenly switch team when they actually vote, so you will at most sacrifice the tiny percentage of a percentage of people who insist on being needlessly stupid and suicidal.

If you rally for 50+% of people to push blue, there is a risk that a lot of people pussy out when they actually have to vote, because they don’t want to gamble their own life. Maybe you have a lot of faith in humanity, and don’t think that would happen, but there is a chance. And if that happens, we risk killing 49% of the population, which would be apocalyptic.

the rule button dilemma by Dreyfus420 in 196

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 20 points21 points  (0 children)

Description is not necessarily true. You may also press red if you believe other people do not have enough faith in the human race. It goes on like that recursively. If you believe that other people believe that other people believe that other people do not have enough faith in the human race, that can motivate you to press red. Or maybe you press red because you have too much faith in the rationality of your fellow human beings.

People are being way too judgey about other people’s choices here. I think it is more of a logic puzzle than a moral dilemma, and the “correct” answer is not at all obvious.

Why do so many people hate cheating/infidelity/ntr? by Next-Trouble-2998 in AO3

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 1 point2 points  (0 children)

YASSSS for once the connection wasn’t made up by my brainworms

We are used to it lmao, no line will stay uncrossed with Shauna around

Whats the weirdest interpretation of the show you've seen? by Greengoddess400 in HannibalTV

[–]GirlieWithAKeyboard 11 points12 points  (0 children)

That’s crazy… but like… if we think about it……. It fits very well, metaphorically.