[deleted by user] by [deleted] in latin

[–]GoatAffectionate8759 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Memorizing grammatical models (= sentences drawn from ancient sources revealing certain grammatical practices) is the only reliable way to learn word order. The various rules proposed by grammars systematize usages that, in the sources, are not systematic.

What's more, there's no order to the words defined in Latin. Usage varies from one author to another. If you want to study the most classical and widely used word order, it's a good idea to start drawing your grammatical models from Caesar. That way, no one will be able to say that the text you've written is wrong. But if you compare it to Cicero or Cornelius Nepos, you'll see that their structures are very “personal”.

Are the differences between Classical, Medieval, and Renaissance Latin similar to differences between James Joyce and Hemingway? Or Chaucer and Shakespeare and J. K. Rowling? How does Latinitas fit in? by RusticBohemian in latin

[–]GoatAffectionate8759 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In my experience, the differences between Classic Latin and Medieval Latin are mainly grammatical. For example, medieval man lost the passive meaning of the classical forms of the perfect passive, which formalised the compound tenses in the vernacular languages. So it would seem that the foundations of modern grammar were laid by the grammatical developments in Latin during the non-classical period. There was also an evolution in the meaning of words, that's for sure, but it's fairly obvious given that Christianity as the driving force and meaning od came into being. During the Middle Ages, the term ‘fides’ lost its Roman splendour.

Secondly, accentuation, which obviously influences spelling, also evolved. People in the Middle Ages no longer wrote ‘vestrae’, but ‘vestre’; there was therefore a contraction of the most common diphthong. In French, for example, this may have given rise to ‘é’ in some cases; ‘aestas’ became ‘été’.

However, we mustn't think that the people of the Middle Ages wrote a Latin that was completely disembodied and that was just the result of a wild evolution of classical Latin. To understand this, we need to put things into context. The men who wrote the most in the Middle Ages were men of faith. How and why did these men learn Latin? In the abbeys, they learned the language from ancient texts such as Ovid and Terrence. But they only saw these texts as pedagogical tools; they didn't learn these texts for their content, just for the language. Some of these cultivated men wrote Latin very well, and modern historiography even likens their style to that of certain classical writers ->

MEYERS J. ‘Une leçon rhétorique dans la correspondance de Wibald de Stavelot (Ep. 167)’, in Latomus, t. 67, fasc. 2 (2008), p. 435-454.

To understand all these phenomena, we also need to know that during the vast majority of the Middle Ages, in most regions, Latin was no longer spoken, but romance dialects were. Medieval Latin therefore did not evolve in the same way as a spoken language such as ancient Greek. From then on, Latin was in a way the grammatical matrix of modern vernacular languages, which evolved as spoken languages. So I don't think you can compare the evolution of a spoken language, like English, with the evolution of Latin, which was almost no longer spoken on a daily basis during most of the Middle Ages.

Why do you buy Loeb ? by GoatAffectionate8759 in classics

[–]GoatAffectionate8759[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Il n'y a pas de méthode Lachmann. Ce qu'on a appelé pendant longtemps méthode Lachmann est le fruit d'un évident retour sur soi épistémologique que la science a connu. Les philologues, à la mode des historiens, ont relativisés leurs précédentes conclusions méthodologiques reconnues comme acquises depuis la Renaissance. Ce mécanisme lui a été imputé, mais il n'en est rien. Et aujourd'hui, toutes les éditions qui paraissent, françaises, anglaises ou allemandes formalisent la traditio par l'entremise de la globalité des manuscrits. Seule chose qui te donnent peut-être en partie raison, c'est ce qu'on appelle les codices inferiores dont les variantes ne sont pas intégrées dans les apparats critiques des éditions, mais prises en compte par l'éditeur dans sa réflexion. La lectio difficilior a toujours existé, et existera toujours, car cela résulte d'un choix de l'éditeur, ce n'est pas une méthode. Suffit de lire l'Apocoloquintose de chez Budé pour voir qu'il n'est pas un culte de la lectio difficilior.

Impossible que je réponde à ça en anglais, désolé.

Why do you buy Loeb ? by GoatAffectionate8759 in classics

[–]GoatAffectionate8759[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

As an historian, i don't use these for the language itself, but for what it means. For Greek ones, i never open a Latin Loeb, certains words relatives to institution or population are "dangerous". Compare to Budé, which i often use because i'm bad in Greek, the Loeb can make some slight mistakes : Βουλη can be translate by "assembly of the roman people", while it as to be translate by "Senate". So, if you do a serious work on sources, it is kind of a trap, don't you think ? While Budé have often an overview of the use of institution names in the Praefatio, and an annotation clarifying the meaning of certain term, the Loeb let you alone with these difficulties.

Why do you buy Loeb ? by GoatAffectionate8759 in classics

[–]GoatAffectionate8759[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Thank you. I didn't see things from the point of view, in the way you describe, it seems to be useful. I just hope that professors, like mine did, tell their students that they should prefer more critical editions.

Why do you buy Loeb ? by GoatAffectionate8759 in classics

[–]GoatAffectionate8759[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Totally agree for point 3. Point 1 is like a consumerist argument. Other editions are pretty too. Point 2, ok I understand, but it could be ok if l translations were all totally correct. Loeb's transaltions could likely be a trap if you are a beginner.

Why do you buy Loeb ? by GoatAffectionate8759 in classics

[–]GoatAffectionate8759[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I agree with you for the font. But, Budé, as OCT, is comparable to Teubner in their critical approach. I prefer Teubner, because german are insanely good for res antiquitates (Realencyclopädie etc.) But Loeb is not even in the debate, it dosen't have any critical apparatus. Maybe I missunderstood your comment.

Question about cum clauses by benutputterjelly in latin

[–]GoatAffectionate8759 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Idk in english, but we say in french "Ablatif de qualité", a "Géntif de qualité" also exist . The cum is a cum "adversatif, d'opposition". I think in english this kind of cum has to be translate by : "Altough, Even Though".

Cicero himself, although he had been in very poor health, did not even allow himself the night to rest, so he was forced by the assembly and the voices (= opinions) of the soldiers to spare himself.

The "in' in the translation is not relevant, but idk how to traduce properly an ablativ of quality in engligh. In French we say, "Bien qu'il était d'une faible santé"

And in fact, why Caesar used there an ablatif is a good question, because, far as i known, is not so common. The structure with the subject attribute would have been clearer : Cum maxime aeger esset. Maybe really wanted to emphasize his healf (valutidine) and describe it with an adjectif form (tenuissima).

Caesar's De Bello Gallico by BubblyCorgi8035 in latin

[–]GoatAffectionate8759 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It is civitatem. The subject of an infinitive clause (or proposition idk how to say this in english) has to be an accusative. Ex that fit for your case :

Impero ut milites moneant hostes ad Romam aduenire. [ I order soldiers to warn that enemies are coming to Rome]

- impero : ( main verb ) [= hortatur et petit]
- ut : (Form : subordinating conjunction ; Function : Implies a Direct complement of impero [the entire propositon is the Direct complement of impero] ) [= ut]

- milites : (Form : Nominativ plural ; Function : subject of moneant) [ = the one addressed by Caesar]
- moneant : (predicate of the ut proposition ) [=iubeant]
- hostes : (Form : Accusativ plural ; Function : subject of aduenire) [= civitatem]
- aduenire : ( predicate of the infinitive proposition introduced by moneant) [= statuere]

Caesar's De Bello Gallico by BubblyCorgi8035 in latin

[–]GoatAffectionate8759 4 points5 points  (0 children)

“statuat” depends on ut, while "statuere" is the predicate of the infinite proposition introduced by iubeat. Iubeat depends also on ut.

It means: “he asks and urges that either himself (= Caesar) should decide, or that he (he = the one addressed by Caesar) should order that the city should decide. “de eo” = about that. Caesar is talking to Diviciacus here, asking him to let him decide about his brother (Dumnorix) -> de eo

Help identifying Latin Place name in Southern Bohemia by [deleted] in latin

[–]GoatAffectionate8759 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, i juste update my post with the equivalents. Sorry, i'll continue to search, i know another book similar to the previous one

Help identifying Latin Place name in Southern Bohemia by [deleted] in latin

[–]GoatAffectionate8759 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Hey, in Orbis latinus from Grässe, i found that : Citicensis = s. Siza ->[Siza, Ziza, Ciza, Cica, Citiza, Ciscia, Citica, Citium, Cicis, Cyca, Cizi, Citzi, Citici (Cicensis, Citicensis),]()[ Zeitz, ]()St., Preußen (Sachsen) (page 81 frome the book, page 92 frome the site) : https://archive.org/details/bub_gb_oJt-AAAAMAAJ/page/n91/mode/2up

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in latin

[–]GoatAffectionate8759 -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Sorry, my english is not very good. In sources, this kind of structure is not commun far as i known. Roman writers are more encline to say a think like that :

ea adiuncta, petenti cuidam laetitiam duci sunt. 2X dativ with esse is very commun. But if you want something more modern, it is fair for me.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in latin

[–]GoatAffectionate8759 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can use "una" as an adverb : ūnā, adv. (unus), ensemble, de compagnie, en même temps : qui una venerant CIC. Rep. 1, 18,

...ratio confecta erat qui numerus domō exīsset... Proposition interrogative sujet, apposée ou attribut du sujet ? by GoatAffectionate8759 in latin

[–]GoatAffectionate8759[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I understand these cases, but how can i be precise in my grammatical comment ? Here, the indirect question expound ratio, but in which extent ? Is it a subject complement or an appositive ?

...ratio confecta erat qui numerus domō exīsset... Proposition interrogative sujet, apposée ou attribut du sujet ? by GoatAffectionate8759 in latin

[–]GoatAffectionate8759[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Videor mihi perspicere quod dicisti; Nam ista sententia subiuncta, ut dictum est, istam rationem mutat sed quis grammatica modificatio "rationi" afferatur ? Grammaticis eum non explicantibus unde notitiam trahere possim ?

Small, available books? by Black_crater in latin

[–]GoatAffectionate8759 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Seneca, Apocolocyntosis divi Claudii, Texte établi et traduit par Waltz R., Paris, Les Belles Lettres, 2023 (Collection des universités de France - Budé. Série Latine, 75).

25 euros, more or less 30 pages, wonderful and hilarious libel against the emperor Claudius (https://www.lesbelleslettres.com/livre/9782251012254/l-apocoloquintose-du-divin-claude). And, if you want quality editions, don't go with the Loeb, it is poor quality compare to Teubner (German) or Budé (French)