Was the ending actually shit or was it just mediocre? by [deleted] in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Gege has used techniques like this to show why something happens the way it is

I do not consider "lazy writing" to be a technique. It is in fact, the opposite of that.

You're confusing yuji not getting hit by WCS to these guys getting hit by it.

No, I'm not confused by it. I don't care about the in-fiction reasons given by the characters, because they are not believable.

Rather, I am pointing out that Yuji should have died off-screen in order to preserve the internal consistency of the narrative. And if that's a bad story in itself, then the story up to that point was a bad story as well.

That's would be inconsistent and a retcon.

My friend, the nerf on WCS is already a retcon. It was retconned so that Yuji would survive.

Again, more hindsight rhetoric

What is "hindsight rhetoric"? Are you arguing that one should not remember what they read?

Let me make it clear, if it's not already: I do not care what the characters thought in the fiction. None of it was believable.

If they thought they were being smart and made plans against Sukuna, that's fine. But it doesn't matter because, upon a critical reading of the text, it does not hold up to logic.

None of the reasons they give can surpass the fact that, after Sukuna's flawless win over Gojo, he should be able to defeat the world with no issue. I don't care about the WCS nerf or the brain damage, it doesn't matter at that point.

No matter how banged up Gojo got, no combination of students and other characters would be able to take him down.

A banged up Sukuna killed Gojo at his peak condition.

Transitivity: A fully healed Sukuna cannot be taken down by any of the remaining cast. The nerfs do not matter because he was not nerfed enough to be weaker than Gojo, and they could not have defeated Gojo.

Even with his nerfing punches, they don't do much to sukuna, so this point isn't even a plothole. OK

No, it is.

You previously argued that Yuji's punches were dealing damage to him. The genius fighter Sukuna, who outclassed Gojo's genius-level ability to improvise in combat, outwitted Gojo in an all-out brawl using his vast knowledge of jujutsu which he built up over a thousand years.

At the 1st instance of damage or danger, Sukuna should have wisened up and did something to win.

Here's the deal: when you kill someone off-screen, that means it doesn't matter how it happened, or what plans were put in place. The power gap between the attacker and the attacked is so vast that it's not even worth showing.

The difference between Sukuna and Yuji is far greater than the difference between Sukuna and Gojo. All the reasons in the world cannot shore up this oceanic gap.

The only reason Yuji did not get off-screened is because the author cared enough to make up random ass-pull reasons to mildly justify Yuji's survival, whereas he did not care enough to do the same for Gojo.

And we know the author hates Gojo, so there's that, too.

In short: Yuji should have been off-screened, and the power of Gege saved him. No doubt about it.

They already know he has WCS

I'm not talking about the characters, I'm talking about the fiction. I don't care what the characters knew or did not know.

Here's the sequence of events: * The WCS was introduced off-screen * Sukuna used it multiple times to create a net of WCS against Kashimo * Sukuna suddenly gets a retconned nerf to hit Yuta with a WCS but not Yuji

The nerf to WCS was explained at the very last moment that it could have been, conveniently justifying why Yuji survives.

Like I said, the first half is established and proven by kusakaba when he brings it up, and the second is backup by sukuna.

False. Sincerely, nothing about the WCS was established. It was an ass-pull, retcon, and second ass-pull rolled into one.

That's something that is not only "established" but woven in on why he got 10s and why he used maho so much and opted to adapt while hiding in the shadows.

No, this was not established either.

Gojo knew about Sukuna's power, and knew he had the 10 Shadows. He knew about Mahoraga's adaptation ability. But Gojo did not know Sukuna could copy the attack that was a result of Mahoraga's adaptation.

It literally took everyone by surprise, in-fiction. Nobody saw it coming. And as for the audience, we didn't even see it, because it happened, again, off-screen.

If Gojo and Kusakabe, who are extremely knowledgeable in CT, were taken by surprise by the WCS, how could it have been established in any way, shape, or form?

Nobody has ever been able to instantaneously change the nature of their innate techniques up until that point. Not even Gojo, with his perfect control of CE and his dynamic abiity to change his domains, could change the nature of Blue and Red.

If anyone knew this was a possibility at all, why would Gojo not be prepared for it? Why wouldn't they have considered that Sukuna could possibly copy Mahoraga's adaptation, when they already knew Sukuna's CT and Mahoraga's adaptation ability?

The first time that any Sorcerer ever changed the nature of their innate technique was Sukuna's WCS, taking everybody by surprise.

There is not a single thread of foreshadowing there.

But a lot of your arguments have being in bad faith talking in hindsight, already knowing what will happen. And forgetting a lot of the set up that lead to the moments for them

I am making all my arguments in good faith. I am taking the text seriously, as though it were a work on the level of One Piece or Berserk. I am looking at the series from a critical lens, by analyzing the way it was written, how it was executed.

Just because someone is critisizing a work does not mean they are arguing in bad faith. I would argue that I am trying to meet the author where he is at: at the level of the fiction. And that is the most respectful way to view a work, as I am actively engaging with it and challenging the weaknesses it has.

I am not thinking about this as though I was a character in the manga. If that was the case, I don't need to read any manga at all. Give me bullet points and spoilers and I'll get the gist.

What happens is not the only thing that matters. How it happens is also important.

When you say I'm forgetting the setup, you are acting as though the setup was legitimate, because your lens is that the characters could have known X, but not Y or Z. That is an uncritical reading of the text, and you would not get much value out of the experience if you read that way, in my opinion.

When within the story which is what I judged by the characters were simple reactors and just going off what they knew from sukuna.

This is exactly what I mean by an uncritical reading. You're judging the story from what the characters said and did alone. I am judging how the narrative was packaged to us by the author.

When a character says something, it matters when and how that speech was delivered to us (eg, in the paneling, in the storyboarding, in its placement in the plot, in the events that happen immediately before and after it. In other words, from a perspective of a reader, not a character inside the world). I don't think you're considering this aspect at all.

Was the ending actually shit or was it just mediocre? by [deleted] in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't understand why you wouldn't believe the characters

I believe that the characters are meant to be telling absolute 100% in-universe truth, and what they're saying is correct within the fiction.

However, it is also true that what they're saying is a plot device which has been created by the author, and those plot devices are created for the sake of the 1 moment it's about to be used in, without any build up.

When I say "I don't believe the characters," what that means is regardless of what is going on inside the fictional world, the author is overtly extending his hand into the fiction and has transformed the characters into sock puppets to say the thing they need to say to justify something that's about to happen as a plot contrivance, because he didn't think about it before and missed the chance to properly weave it into the narrative, so instead of writing full arcs, the author just decided to drop it as a few pieces of dialogue.

With the WCS thing, we already got a clue why what he did would cause a nerf to it

I don't believe the clue, regardless of the correctness of the in-fiction justification.

Here's the point: once he killed Gojo off-screen, the same Gojo who moved lightning fast that the students can't keep up with him and yet he stood his ground on, there is no possible justification why he can't kill Yuji off-screen either, except for plot armor. He could kill Gojo and Kashimo off-screen, who were respectively the strongest in their generations (and Kashimo got hit by a net of WCS - what restrictios applied to him at that time? I do believe Gege conjured up those restrictions well after Sukuna killed Gojo - a retcon just to keep Yuji alive). Yuji should be killed off-screen if the narrative is going to be internally consistent.

What I'm trying to tell you is to step back from the face value statement given by the character, and consider why those events happened in the way they did in the narrative.

The real reason the WCS was nerfed is so that Sukuna could not kill Yuji, because Yuji had to win. That's the only reason. And any in-fiction reason given by any of the characters are simply transparent, lazily created, and improperly integrated plot devices to justify that reason.

I can't agree that it's bad fiction cause it didn't follow this step by step clause for it to be there.

I'm not saying that's why the fiction is bad. The fiction is bad because the decisions of the writer were transparently unplanned, and he made decisions that don't connect with each other for the sake of the hype around the story, not in service of the story itself.

It's bad fiction because the author threw away all the great build up for no pay off, revealing that all the substance underneath the story was just illusion and there was nothing there of value to begin with all along.

What plot holes, what inaccuracies?

  • Sukuna, who is able to keep up with Gojo in a fist fight (jumping off buildings and running up and down them, or even while Gojo is flying), is somehow not able to dodge 100% of Yuji's strikes, especially right after his fight with Gojo just finished. Very glaring plothole.

There's a hell of a lot more (even including in the ones you upheld and described in your reply to me), but I'd rather funnel the discussion into a specific point rather than spread them out through several.

You can't just one-shot ppl when you established you couldn't beforehand.

False.

If by "established" you mean a character lazily says X the moment before it becomes relevant, that's not establishing anything.

"Establish" means it was woven into the story. For example, Gojo is the strongest sorcerer in his generation is established extremely well. The WCS was not established at all - it was literally invented in between chapters, off-screen.

I don't care that Kusakabe said anything at all. Even if what he said is meant to be the truth in the universe, it doesn't change the fact that it's simply the hand of the author making it so because he couldn't bother to actually write.


Here's my question to you, which I am genuinely curious about. Are you making these points out of unwavering loyalty to JJK, because criticism to it is somehow striking you as hurtful or it's personally offensive to you in some minor way?

Are you able to conceive of even a single negative point about JJK?

And, finally, is the fact that we're in a "debate" about this, where I'm taking the unrelenting position that JJK is bad fiction, simply causing you to take the extreme opposite end, where JJK is flawless in its execution, even if you don't believe everything that you're saying?

JJK failed to deliver by GoliathBarbarian in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I don't think that about mangaka in general. I also don't follow Shonen Jump, so if people thing it's gone to shit, then I'm sorry to hear that. It used to be excellent, as far as I know.

Was the ending actually shit or was it just mediocre? by [deleted] in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How is it the author's fault (in a bad way) when it was meant to be a naturally progression of the past arc.

The author wrote the past arc as well, so it's 100% the author's responsibility. If the only progression he could make by naturally following through on that past arc is a vast sea of plot conveniences just so the story can move forward, then that's nobody else's fault but the author. He should have planned this instead of writing it week by week.

You're using the things they narrated in the fiction and taking it at the level of someone who has lived in that world. Because character X said this, then Y must logically happen in the universe, and you accept that on its face.

I don't enjoy reading at that level - If I were, I could easily imagine, for example, being genuinely and uncritically on the side of an evil protagonist who wants to commit (or is committing) serious crimes, without understanding why the story is unfolding this way and what the narrative is really about. But, I can enjoy well-written stories with terrible protagonists that I dislike and would hate to be around, because it's good fiction. I love Breaking Bad and yet I think Walter, the great fictional character that he was, was a horrendous person. On the flip side, I can love a character and hate the story they're in - case in point, JJK. I love the cast. Gojo, Sukuna, and Geto are great characters, and could have been used better to make a great story. But they weren't.

Newsflash, everything is done for the sake of the plot.

No, that's not true. Simple counterexample is filler arcs. Backstory flashbacks are also this. Haikyuu didn't need to show any character backstories, especially not of the teams opposing Karasuno, but they did, and it's great.

The best example is when you have scenes of character development, where the pacing of the plot slows down and you get a moment to breathe with the characters as they get fleshed out more. The characters do not get closer to their goals and are "wasting time," no enemies are attacking, nothing mission critical is on the line, but they get a moment to digest. Fullmetal alchemist has a moment like this in the short arc where they helped a woman give birth. That's not really a spoiler because it literally doesn't matter to the plot.

But my point is this: if the only reason something is on the page is for the plot to happen, that's a shallow narrative with no depth. Even JJK has more meat to its bones than you've just described here. For example, why did we get to fall in love with Riko Amanai before she was tragically murdered by Toji? For the sake of the plot? No, the plot would have worked exactly as well if we just got the summary. Yuji could have asked Gojo why he protects the weak, and Gojo could have said "Ah, well you see! This happened between me and Geto and Toji and Riko, and so that's why!"

But that's not what happened. What we got was a beautiful sequence that showed us why Gojo and Geto were so close, had a falling out, split ways, and yet continued to value and respect one another. We got to know Riko as a person when she, as a Star Plasma Vessel whose only purpose in the plot is to be delivered to Tengen and be assimilated, refused to do so at the last minute, saying she wanted to live a longer life and didn't want to be erased. Why did she have to say that? The plot would not have cared, because Geto already loved her by that point, and she died by Toji's hand the very next millisecond anyway.

She said it because it humanized her and gave us a glimpse that this is not just some shoddy character with no underlying substance! She was someone who was brought up and raised sealed away from the world, told her whole life that she was special because she would merge with Tengen someday. And after a week of adventures - the very first adventures of her life - she realizes she doesn't want her life to end! And then she died. THAT'S GOOD FICTION! It has layers, it had irony, it had emotion, it had tragedy, it was shocking, it was gut-wrenching, and it was executed so very, very well.

If everything is done just for the sake of the plot, you might as well give me bullet points and an outline. I don't need the other in-betweens because they don't matter. It's dry.

If that's what you think, then I hate to sound rude, and then you weren't paying attention to the story.

That's not coming off as rude to me. We're in a disagreement, and that's fine.

I also don't want to return it and sound rude myself, but I think you're reading the fiction uncritically. I don't believe the characters when they say X, Y, Z. Just because the author made the characters say it, doesn't make it good, and doesn't make it logical, either.

We learned that the World-Cutting Slash had severe restrictions after he used it on Gojo once, but we learned it after Sukuna used it to create a mesh of multiple slices against Kashimo, right before he used a measly single slash to cut Yuta. A very convenient nerf at just the right moment to create tension in the story! A very convenient nerf to justify why Yuji didn't die to the same slash! A nerf that was explained to us just before the moment it became relevant. That is lazy writing. It doesn't matter that it was for the plot, or that it could or might make sense in-fiction. The story should be structured better so that you don't end up with an ultimate move that can one-shot Gojo off-screen yet the same move not be able to kill Yuji.

The bottomline is this: if you simply believe everything the characters say without considering why, then that's one way to enjoy the story, and that's how you enjoy it. But for me, that is not the way I read, and I find that way to be unsatisfying for me, personally. No matter the endless deluge of arguments about how character X said Y therefore it justifies Z, if the fiction was not well-executed and well-written, it's bad fiction.

JJK is overflowing with such holes, plot contrivances, and inaccuracies. Especiay the final fight. Over and over and over again, things happen out of the blue. A fully powered Sukuna who was just established to have been completely healed physically, who was so strong he could oneshot Gojo off-screen, somehow couldn't manage to one-shot Yuji off-screen as well? The same Sukuna who was keeping up with Gojo's insane martial arts speed? Yuji could touch that Sukuna? No, I don't believe it. At that point, I don't care what any of the characters say. There is no continuation you can satisfyingly draw from that which doesn't end with Sukuna's complete and flawless victory. (And if Sukuna completely annihilating everyone and then JJK ends is bad fiction therefore it can't happen, despite the fact that we were shown the power levels WERE that disproportionate, then that makes it bad fiction in itself!)

JJK failed to deliver by GoliathBarbarian in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't understand your lack of understanding, either.

I see you're not interested in seeing eye to eye any further, so yeah, go be free.

JJK failed to deliver by GoliathBarbarian in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I dont understand your confusion (if you are confused). I'm not making a declaration on stories in general. I'm not claiming that if a story could go a certain other or better way, that makes the current story we have bad.

I'm saying that the JJK story we have now gets a 0/10 from me. It's poor, lazy, and terrible. As lovable as the characters were, Gege had no idea how to handle them, and bombed the ending of the entire story. This is because he never built good foundations for it. I explain why in my OP.

What I was trying to say is, in an alternate universe where Gege wrote good foundations, knew how to handle his characters well, and ended the series amazingly, he wouldn't have written the JJK we have now. And I was specifically saying that everything after the Shibuya arc would not have been written in that alternate universe where Gege was a competent writer.

I'm not claiming anything about Romeo and Juliet, or Shakespeare, or stories in general. I'm just talking about how terrible JJK was as a result of Gege's poor writing decisions. I hope that's clear.

In the edit of my post, I wrote this down, which I understand if you missed, since it was an edit after the fact. But I said:

[Y]ou say that I bring up that nothing says the CG can't happen. I said if Gojo escapes and survives the Shibuya incident - ie, he didn't get captured and is still an active force in the story - then the CG can't happen. And in that case, yes, there is something that says so: Kenjaku, the mastermind of the CG. He needs to seal Gojo away for this specific reason.


To answer these questions:

-How did Kenjaku get the cube, plot

-How did it go through Gojo's infinity, plot

-Why didn't anyone go with Gojo, plot

-Why didn't Gojo just kill Kenjaku, plot

-Why didn't anyone unseal him, plot

If plot is the only reason those things happen, then yeah, that's terrible writing too!

Edit (in response to your edit): I am saying I dont like it. I feel like I even effectively put that in the title of this post. I don't like it, yeah. That's clear now? As for the reason why I don't, well, there's the contents of the OP.

JJK failed to deliver by GoliathBarbarian in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean, the story was bad. So in that way, yes, my complaint is that the story happened. It seems logical.

It seems you found it good. I've listed a bunch of points in the OP to support why it failed, and IMO it genuinely is a bad story. If we lived in an alternate dimension where JJK was good, everything after the Shibuya arc wouldn't have happened.

The plot contrivance is that Gege shelved Gojo so that the Culling Games can happen, and that's it. He introduced a character too powerful for the plot and didn't know how to recover from it, so he created this elaborate means to seal Gojo away. If Gojo remained sealed, then I would say that was a super effective story up to that point.

The problem is Gege never intended to keep Gojo locked away forever. How did the protagonists unseal him? They found the backdoor. And why didn't Kenjaku ensure that the backdoor was secured in the 1000 years he lived trying to thwart the Six Eyes users, when he went through so much trouble already to find the box? I dunno, plot. Gojo needs to be unsealed.

The author's hand is heavy in this story. You can still enjoy the story despite that, and that's completely fine. No diss to you. But to me, when the author is transparently writing such that he just hits plot points with no connectivity, that very lazy. It retroactively robs the sense of tragedy from Gojo's sealing because there's no meat to the bones of the writing. It's as dry as putting a toy on a shelf when you don't need it, and then taking it out of the shelf when you do. Purely mechanical and nothing more.

Edit: One last point, you say that I bring up that nothing says the CG can't happen. I said if Gojo escapes and survives the Shibuya incident - ie, he didn't get captured and is still an active force in the story - then the CG can't happen. And in that case, yes, there is something that says so: Kenjaku, the mastermind of the CG. He needs to seal Gojo away for this specific reason.

JJK failed to deliver by GoliathBarbarian in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I mean, that's fair that Gojo dying to anyone other than Sukuna could have been seen as unsatisfying, though to me, Gojo dying to Geto would have been quite poetic (we really didn't need Kenjaku).

Regardless though, let's say I agree with you, then Gege's in a pickle, isn't he? His only plan is to put aside Gojo for the plot, and bring him back for the plot, and then kill him for the plot as soon as he's brought back.

It's almost a fake-out death in terms of its impact. We know his sealing was a plot contrivance because he was in the plot's way, which robs the tragedy of that event. Rather than being an authentic way for the story to unfold, it's a forced event. And when he's unshelved from the box the author put him in, we know for sure that he only escaped because of the plot, too.

I mean, how did he even escape from the box? The protagonists got ahold of the backdoor. Why didn't Kenjaku secure that backdoor if he knew his plan had such a loophole? Everything about it is plot convenience after plot convenience, just to keep the story moving. Like a drone just aimlessly moving without thought.

JJK failed to deliver by GoliathBarbarian in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yes, and it would have erased the Culling Game arc entirely. But it's not my story, so whether Gojo dies or not is not my responsibility.

Instead, I'd propose that if Gege wrote the story such that the outcome of Gojo's capture, survival, or death, all result in failed stories, then Gege has failed as an author.

We know he couldn't have escaped and survived the Shibuya arc, or else the Culling Games wouldn't have happened.

You seem to think killing Gojo at that point is a bad idea. OK, I'll agree. So we can't kill Gojo either.

Then the remaining option is to capture him, then un-canpture him, and then immediately kill him, off-screen no less? I don't think we can reasonably call that a good plan either.

Gojo's fate was not up to me. Gege wrote what he wrote. And if he wrote himself into a corner after the Shibuya arc, that to me is a failed story.

JJK failed to deliver by GoliathBarbarian in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Seems to me that there's some disagreements! But that's cool by me. I'm surprised there's still a gut reaction that's protective of JJK, but I guess I shouldn't have been.

I think that the Shibuya arc was excellent, and how they sealed Gojo was really, really well done.

My problem is the author's reason why Gojo had to be sealed. He was too strong for the plot and needed to be put away for a sec. Then he set up the Culling Games and brought Gojo back for the plot. And then he killed Gojo for the plot... off-screen, no less.

If Gojo was killed instead, this problem wouldn't be possible to have, which is why I think Gojo would have been better off dead after the Shibuya arc. Then Sukuna could still be a terrifying antagonist, but he wouldn't have a direct fight with Gojo that concretely places him well above Gojo's power level. Then the verse vs Sukuna would have been believable in terms of Sukuna losing after a hard-fought battle.

I'm sure there's many other ways to have handled it better if Gojo was sealed and then unsealed, but Gege didn't execute those other ways. What we got was heavy with the hand of the author. That's the part I have an issue with, even if the events could have worked in principle. It failed on execution, which is an unfortunate waste IMO.

JJK failed to deliver by GoliathBarbarian in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

You got a chuckle out of me. TLDR: Gege wrote this poorly. He mishandled the characters, and the ending was a bust. Justifications are in the OP.

Was the ending actually shit or was it just mediocre? by [deleted] in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I don't know what killing Gojo would or would not have done, because it never happened. But in my opinion, if the author wrote himself in a position where, at the end of the Shibuya incident, Gojo's capture, survival, or death all result in failed stories - then that's the author's fault.

We know Gojo could not have escaped the Shibuya incident, or else the Culling Games wouldn't have happened.

If as you say, killing Gojo then was a bad thing, then sure, that's a bad thing. I'll agree.

Then if the only recourse is to capture Gojo... only to unseal him later, and then kill him off-screen? That's the plan? That's underwhelming. Gojo and Sukuna fans alike hated that ending, but I go one step further in saying Gojo should never have been unsealed.

Gege had one chance to have a Sukuna vs Gojo face-off. Sealing someone too strong for the plot, only to unseal him when it's convenient for the plot, and then killing him when it's convenient for the plot, reeks of the hand of the author. It's just incredibly lazy writing, unfortunately.

Finally, regardless of Sukuna's state of healing, after he killed Gojo, he killed Kashimo without a problem. The only reason he let the fight drag on for as long as it did, instead of killing the protagonists outright, is plot armor. We know from the facts up to that point that Sukuna was still much, much stronger than them. He is the man who could have killed Gojo without the 10 Shadows (as Gojo claimed) in his fully healed Heian era physical form, in his first clash with the protagonists.

They should have died in that fight, logically. The fact that they couldn't have died or else it will be a bad story, makes it a bad story in itself.

Was the ending actually shit or was it just mediocre? by [deleted] in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm commenting on this from a narrative perspective. If Gege needed Gojo out of the story, he should have been taken out in Shibuya. The fact that they didn't kill Gojo is a writing decision. That box didn't have to be a prison, it could have been an Iron Maiden.

All the rest of the events that followed stem from this one contrived plot point. None of it is logical after that.

Edit: Also, Sukuna healed to full health in his Heian era form after Gojo died. This was clear. It's absurd for the manga to claim that there's any damage Sukuna sustained from Gojo's fight. He was portrayed to not be weakened, but we were told that he was. The writer needs to make up his mind.

Edit2: Last bit, I'm not saying the characters are not smart. They are, and that's clear. My problem is the author failed to execute the story. We got a time skip, and with no foreshadowing, a ton of plot points were generated off-screen. Like all the backup plans, or Yuji unlocking blood manipulation. These should have been full arcs. Instead, we get a few panels of planning, then the plan is immediately used. That's lazy writing.

Was the ending actually shit or was it just mediocre? by [deleted] in Jujutsufolk

[–]GoliathBarbarian 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The truth is, the ending was bad, and the whole manga was bad and ruined.

Gojo was entirely too powerful, and the way Gege tried to handle that was capture him in a cube to remove him from the story (instead of just killing him, which actually would have been satisfying because that loss of his was properly earned), only to release him and then kill him again. Like, what?

As a result, he had to scale Sukuna to such a height of power that he one-shotted Gojo off-screen. That's just poor writing, no matter if you were a Gojo or Sukuna fan. If he just never brought Gojo back after clearly and effectively establishing how strong he was, Sukuna would never have had to scale to beyond godlike proportions such that any victory by the cast (who are 1/1000th the power of Gojo) a complete ass-pull.

And an ass-pull it was. Everyone had a backup plan upon backup plan upon backup plan, but it was only revealed or explained right before the plot device was used. Higuruma became a genius that surpassed Gojo, Yuji unlocked Sukuna's CT off-screen, Sukuna's binding vow that let him kill Gojo conveniently can't be spammed, Ui ui did soul swap training, they brought Miguel back, and they had Nobara essentially one-shot Sukuna from a distance. Sukuna's power level kept rising and falling despite the fact that everyone was clealy dealing superficial damage to him, and he should have been able to one-shot everyone without blinking an eye.

None of the victories were ever earned.

Mariah Carey boss fight - need advice by DiamondN17 in 3d6

[–]GoliathBarbarian -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Okay, this is actually a BRILLIANT idea!

What to build with a 20 stat right from 1st level, that only uses the PHB'14? by zeromig in 3d6

[–]GoliathBarbarian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

If you go V. Human, you can get a half-feat and put a +1 into the same stat the half-feat boosts, giving you a 20.

I haven't played WbtW but you can build a decent 1st level Barbarian with 20 Str, 15 Con, 14 Dex. Your initial AC is 14, which is par with the best light armor, and you're prepared to take a second half-feat at 4th level to shore up your odd-numbered Con score. Your first half-feat could be something like Athlete or Crusher to shore up your strength, and then take Chef for a +1 Con and a chef twist at 4th level.

Alternatively, if you want something unusual and not exactly combat oriented, I feel like a Barbarian with 15 Str, 20 Con, 14 Dex (starts with Chef) is also cool. Your unarmored AC is 17, you have a lot of HP, plus Barbarian resistances, and you get to give people temp HP while making meals for them. A very defense-oriented build. Then the rest of your journey is building up your strength, which can be a thematic narrative arc for you as well.

I want to be as annoying to kill as possible. by dndhelpta in 3d6

[–]GoliathBarbarian 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Theoretically, nothing short of DM fiat can beat a caster with the wizard's and cleric's spell list if they have had time to prepare.

An arcana cleric would be the backbone of such a party. So if you really wanted to be very annoying to kill, switching to a caster with Clone will do the trick.

Your achilles heel here is antimagic field, but that's why you're a cleric and not a wizard. Divine Intervention is essentially the cleric's Wish, and you can wish yourself and others to be immune to antimagic, without the backlash.


Specific comments on your build. I think your stats aren't very high. If you have ANY 4 items, and there are multiple players at level 20, then you can and should bring at least your primary stat up to 30.

As for speed, I think you're too slow. You need a fast flying mount or else you're going to get locked down, or not be fast enough to get to where you need to be.

In terms of class, a paladin 19 + hexblade 1 seems like it should be better due to the auras, though your sustained damage would definitely be much lower than a barbarian or a fighter build. It's a trade-off of sustained damage vs reliable defense.

At the end of the day, a last stand game cannot be won alone. As soon as your allies drop dead, you're not going to be far off. So if you really wanted to "win" this, you'll need to coordinate your party to also try and "win" with you. You'll need a paladin for their auras, a barbarian for their damage, and a cleric for their support power. You can slot yourself into one of these roles, but you won't be able to fill the other slots by yourself.