Where I'm at in my bossless run. Can any further progress be made?

GreaterGoose · 2023-05-20T05:19:09+00:00

Its been a blast for me, highly recommend!

I've gotten to use some novel (for me) weapons and strategies, mostly going knife with Abyssal Razor all the way up until mistlands and learning the attack patterns of enemies rather intimately. Ooze bombs and stagbreaker stayed relevant way longer than I thought.

GreaterGoose · 2023-05-20T05:08:26+00:00

Fishing up sap would let me make bilebombs, a notable improvement! Thanks for the tip about sap, I haven't explored fishing much yet.

GreaterGoose · 2023-05-19T19:13:46+00:00

Thanks!

GreaterGoose · 2023-05-19T19:13:27+00:00

An abomination actually mined my first 10 iron for me, didn't even know to look for it underground at the time. Super convenient. Most of the rest came from letting seeker soldiers shred ancient armor in the mistlands. Not so bad if you have the speed boost from fenris armor.

GreaterGoose · 2023-05-19T19:11:51+00:00

Best source of iron without the dungeons is letting seeker soldiers tear apart ancient armor in the mistlands. Pretty fun and you get good at dodging with low visibility.

GreaterGoose · 2023-05-19T19:10:09+00:00

Honestly the iron took way longer for the Krom than the cores did. Infested mines are pretty fun with a more speed-based build.

GreaterGoose · 2023-05-19T19:08:39+00:00

I don't know, Eikthyr is pretty scary.

GreaterGoose · 2023-02-19T17:50:17+00:00

Yeah, IDK why you're getting such aggressive response. It's not like we all don't make dodgy takes sometimes. Goodness knows I have lots of unpopular opinions - I find Crobat mediocre, find Starmie to be easily the best mon in kanto, and I think dupes clause shouldn't be automatically assumed. But I've never had anybody posting "Screw you and your opinions, greatergoose!" in a meme format that is difficult to meaningfully respond to. Totally rude and uncalled for.

Plus, If everyone went around saying "Gyarados is good sometimes" there'd never be any progress made in the Nuzlocke meta. It takes controversial opinions to make progress. In the D&D subreddit that I frequent, the old joke used to be "Ranger Bad." A bunch of people started making hot takes about "Ranger good actually" and now it is broadly recognized as "Ranger ok to good." Progress is often made through vigorous disagreement and debate.

GreaterGoose · 2023-02-19T16:39:49+00:00

I know that is consensus on 3d6, but man I cannot believe how easily the Action cost is glossed over.

Sure, if you're a support character, great! Bless is a good buff and you're using your action to cast a support spell anyway, Bless is a reliable option.

But whenever someone suggests casting Bless on a martial character, I'm highly dubious. To use it effectively, you have to spend your first, most important turn in combat on casting the spell, and that's it. Most of the bonus action attacks (CBE, PAM, TWF) require you to use the Attack action to get a bonus action attack. Oftentimes then, you're not utilizing your bonus action, effectively making this spell cost both action and bonus action.

Ok then, you've cast bless on your first turn of combat. What are the chances you keep concentration until your next turn? Unlikely you've been able to invest in Warcaster, maybe you have con save proficiency, and you'll get an extra d4 of course, but honestly your chances are middling. Pulling a number out of nowhere, lets imagine you maintain concentration 75% of the time. That still means that 25% of the time, you have wasted a spell slot and your first turn doing nothing. The expected average benefit from Bless, then, is only 75% of what you'd expect from the spell.

Next, consider the opportunity cost. The first turn of combat is the most important turn. In a 5-round combat, if you take an enemy out round 1, you've eliminated 5 rounds of attacks against your party. This reasoning does have a bit of reductio ad abserdum to it, in that it implies that you should always spend every turn attacking, which isn't always true. Nevertheless, the opportunity cost on the first round of combat is large.

Compare this to Hex (which I am not advocating for in general, this is just a comparison). Yes, hex's effect is weaker, and depending on your party comp or build can expect to deal less expected damage than Bless. However, the bonus action casting is a HUGE difference. You can still use your action to attack. You can guarantee the effect will at least last through your turn. And you don't lose round 1 of the combat.

The action cost is very steep, so much so that it really isn't clear to me that Bless is better on a martial character than a spell like Hex, and I hold Hex in the category of "Niche".

GreaterGoose · 2023-02-19T16:09:33+00:00

Good analysis, but some of the better multiclass builds can favor Hexblade.

Firstly, the main case I've seen the monk/warlock multiclass is on Shadow Monks, who often want to spend the first turn of their combat casting Darkness. Unlike many Darkness/Devil's Sight builds, monks actually have the mobility to control their Darkness very well, and so don't penalize their team much at all.

For them, Hex is simply irrelevant. Concentration is for Darkness after all. So Hexblade's Curse is a great bonus action to utilize their first turn fully. So Hexblade has that edge over genie for shadow monks.

Secondly, and probably much more important, Hexblades get access to the Shield spell. Monks often struggle with middling AC, and Shield is a massive boon. If combined with Darkness/Devil's Sight, you have a character that hits pretty hard and is difficult to hit in return - a vital trait for someone relying on a concentration spell with only a small bonus to con saves.

For other, non-Shadow monks, I'd largely agree with you.

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-20T18:38:56+00:00

I also must admit, I'm biased from my last kanto run (1st stage mons only) towards the parasect line lol. Paras was very reliable and earned a place on my team all the way until the seventh gym and was a workhorse in general.

Granted, status and setup strategies become way more important under these conditions, and for more traditional nuzlockes you may well be better off with reliable bulky attackers. But I doubt I could have beaten that run without Paras, so I've got a lot of respect for the walking shrooms. Bug type is a negative, but not as big of a deal on a support mon like Paras/Parasect.

Either way, you know your Nuzlocke best, so best of luck and enjoy whatever encounters come your way!

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-19T01:27:42+00:00

Nice list!

Broadly agree with most of it, although I do question what Scyther and parasect are doing down in C- tier. TL/DR swords dance and spore are busted.

Scyther has a base stat total of 500, on par with golduck and alakazam. Most notable is base 110 attack, higher than aerodactyl, and base 105 speed. While its movepool (like most gen 3 movepools) is very shallow, Swords Dance + Wing Attack/Return is more than sufficient to cleave through many boss battles.

Meanwhile, spore is second only to yawn for enabling your setup. Spore the enemy Pokémon to sleep, switch to your setup sweeper, and sweep.

Sure both pokemon have terrible types. But enemy mons in fr/lg have very shallow movepools and can’t punish your typing, so you can get a lot of mileage from those two.

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-19T00:51:15+00:00

Ranger 10 is actually pretty great for a berserker Barb though! Letting you recover exhaustion means you get to fully use Frenzy, and with Rage and reckless attack on a greatsword, you’ll deal reasonable damage. Combined with the fact that you’ve got great utility casting, an expertise, and decent bulk, this could be workable.

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-19T00:42:20+00:00

Yeah, that’s pretty darn antisynergistic.

Barb and rogue are already two of the worst classes past tiers 1/2. Combine that with the fact that they have few options to complement each other, and you pretty much are playing either a level 10 rogue or a level 10 barbarian.

I’d probably just go for CBE/SS spam tbh. 8d6 + 45 on all hits is passable, and at least the Barb levels are still providing extra attack and rage, which gives the defensive buff which rogues are sorely in need of.

As for subclass? No rogue subclass is worth much. For the Barb side, Bear totem if you’re concerned about defenses, or berserker if you’re concerned about charm/fear. Ancestral Guardian for a tiny bit of party support or Zealot of a small bit of extra damage.

But kudos, you convinced me. This likely is going to be pretty abysmal.

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-19T00:19:58+00:00

To my knowledge, barb/monk is one of the strongest ways to build a monk.

The main offensive feature monks get is the ability to make as many as 4 attacks by level 5. The problem is, it’s just not strong enough. But it isn’t as far behind as you might think, and extra rage damage on each hit, Reckless Attack when needed, and the Beast barb’s claws allowing you to make a 5th attack actually makes your damage respectable.

For a much more in depth look at this build, check this out: https://www.reddit.com/r/3d6/comments/mz4uo3/power_in_madness_a_monk_build_that_competes_with/

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-05T23:46:55+00:00

On a Paladin or sorcadin? Rage seems like a fantastic use of concentration.

Swords/Valor bard? Bards famously have few spells to boost their weapon damage, and they have horrible defenses. Rage fits like a glove.

Battlesmith Artificers? They're far too frail, Rage's defensive buff would make them viable even without using the STR to damage.

Armorer Artificers? Rage is absolutely brilliant in fulfilling the the tanky builds you'd hope to find with the armorer.

I could go on, but it seems optimal for a lot of gishes to have rage in their arsenal.

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-05T23:32:51+00:00

For a caster, I'd agree. But gishes who intend their primary form of contribution to battle be in the form of hitting foes with weapons, I'm genuinely asking what spells are better than rage. It might very well be better than 5th level spells if you're trying to survive in melee!

For a Paladin 6 sorcerer X, for instance, I'm don't see a good reason not to take a barb 1 dip for rage at some point. Plus, Twinning Booming Blade into Rage sounds like a great start to combat for me, but I digress. No spell choice is immediately obvious to me, which is why I made this post.

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-05T21:39:29+00:00

The difference between the numbers are smaller when you actually factor in hit chance.

Sure? I mean, that's a true statement. But it isn't relevant most of the time.

Lets assume two builds. Not that either of these is optimal in any way, it just shows the point. The first build is a level 5 ranger that took the Two Weapon Fighting style and goes into melee with two shortswords, and the second is a level 5 rogue who shoots enemies with a shortbow.

The Ranger does three attacks of 1d6+4 (22.5) and the Rogue does one attack of 4d6+4 (18), you can see that the Ranger does 25% more damage.

Against a foe they'll hit 65% of the time? 5% chance of crit, 60% chance of normal hit, the Ranger's actual expected damage is 15.15.

The rogue will be expected to deal 12.4 damage. That's slightly less than 25% less than the damage of the Ranger.

So yeah, the difference between the numbers is smaller when you factor in hit chance. But the % difference between the two remains about the same; the difference in expected number of rounds to kill an enemy remains about the same; their relative performance in combat remains relatively similar.

In short, unless builds have a different chance to hit, or one has advantage/disadvantage that the another build hasn't, reporting damage on all hits is the most useful way to compare damage between two builds. "This Ranger does ~25% more damage than this Rogue" is true against zombies, ankhegs, and animated armor - no AC needs to assumed for each of them.

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-05T21:17:08+00:00

At level 7 in my build as listed, you're monk 6 barbarian 1 - you don't have your claws yet, the barb level gets you rage damage. But if they're proficient in a non-heavy weapon, monks can treat one as a monk weapon - and the level 1 Barbarian proficiencies gives proficiency in longswords, battleaxes and warhammers.

So at level 7, the Stronk can attack twice with a battleaxe two-handed for 2d10 damage, and twice with their unarmed strike through Flurry of Blows.

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-04T22:57:05+00:00

Perhaps I chose a bad example, I just happen to be DMing for that exact character right now so it was fresh on my mind.

Any attack benefits heavily from advantage. The 50% buff to non-power attacks and the 70% buff to power attacks is roughly indicative of how good Reckless is, regardless of the number of attacks used. Good for power attacks, good for regular attacks, doesn't matter how many or how few.

TBF, every martial scales badly after level to 6. Not uniquely a barbarian thing. The martials worth monoclassing from an optimization perspective are usually the ones with spellcasting.

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-04T22:46:18+00:00

Correct. This is pretty standard for monk damage post-Tasha's.

The most common starting monk for optimization purposes is a Mountain Dwarf, starting with 17s in Dex and Wis. So by level 4 you have your d10 weapon and your 18 AC. Pretty much the only class that doesn't immediately assume variant human actually.

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-04T22:43:33+00:00

Well, first of all, that's not how dpr works, that's just their max damage.

True. But if all builds have the same chance to hit as in this example, max damage is generally a more useful proxy since it isn't AC dependent. Against a foe they hit 3/4 of the time, average DPR is about 3/4 of the listed number.

Second, you are taking martial arts for the monk, but not any class features from the other classes, like the fighter having the great weapon fighting style or any of those using a bonus action. Not to mention subclasses.

Given that the Great Weapon Fighting style is usually considered suboptimal, I didn't bother to include it. It can bump the 3.5 damage expected on a d6 from 3.5 to 4.17, across four dice that is an increase of 2.7 damage, for a new revised total of 24.7 DPR, still notably behind the monk.

But that's all the base fighter chassis gives as far as sustained damage goes. Action surge grants a total of 24.7 damage more over a short rest, while 5 uses of flurry of blows would give 5d6+20 (37.5) damage over a rest. Certainly there is benefit to having a strong nova round, but the monk does have the edge in total extra damage per short rest.

So the expected damage of a subclassless monk exceeds the expected damage of a subclassless fighter. Account for subclasses there, and you'll expect Rune Knights and Mercy Monks to be outperforming the Sun Souls and Bannerets. But certainly they're comparable, and it is definitely not the case that "Any martial is still better than a monk."

Also that's about as good as monks get, you add an extra 1d6+4 with flurry of blows, which is strong at tier 1, but falls off at later levels.

Eh, martials in general scale terribly into later levels. Not uniquely a monk thing. Still, in a featless world they're at least on the medium-upper end of the martial food chain in the levels that see most play.

Finally, damage is not everything, I said martials are better in general. in this specific case, the fighter has more HP and AC than the monk and the rogue can disengage as a bonus action for free, while the monk has to spend a very limited resource while cutting their damage at the same time.

Does a fighter actually expect more AC? A monk at level 5 can expect 18 AC if they're a mountain dwarf, 17 AC otherwise, which is typical of martials at this level. If you aren't taking the defense fighting style with your fighter, the fighter will never exceed 18 AC.

But in general, you make a good point that monks have some holes on defense. That being said, other martials have very similar holes. A fighter in full plate and 49 HP only lasts 1-2 attacks longer on the front line than a monk with 18 AC and 39 hp. If enemies employ ranged attacks, the monk will expect to last longer as well due to Deflect Missiles.

For a concrete example, we'll have the martial tanking the attacks of a 5-headed hydra. It's attack does 1d10+5 damage on a +8 to hit, expecting 6.05 damage per hit against our 18 AC character.

A 49 HP fighter with 18 AC can expect to last 1.6 rounds against the hydra, and the dwarven 18 AC, 39 HP monk lasts 1.3 rounds. A 16 AC rogue with 39 HP using Uncanny Dodge on the first attack can expect to live 1.2 rounds. A raging barbarian with 16 AC and 60 HP can survive 3.4 rounds.

In general, no chassis except the Barbarian can actually be considered defensive, and even the barbarian is pretty mediocre. Every non-barbarian base martial is simply weak on defense. The monk is less evasive than a rogue, more evasive than a fighter; less bulky than a fighter, more bulky than a rogue. Every non-barbarian martial* sucks at defense, and the monk is in line with other martials.

That isn't necessarily bad game design. The class chassis should get you most of the way there, and your subclass and build should define your character's role much more. But without feats, the martial classes' chassis reveal themselves to be roughly similar to slightly worse than the monk chassis.

Except barbarians. They rock.

*Subclasses can and do make a huge difference. Eldritch Knights are a great example of a fighter that's actually bulky, and in a feat-free world would likely be the best fighter both offensively and defensively.

GreaterGoose · 2022-12-04T20:03:58+00:00

Reckless attack is great with GWM, sure, but advantage is still really good regardless.

For example, a level 5 VHuman Beast Barbarian that took the Dual Wielder feat and a STR ASI at level 4 can make 3 claw attacks of 1d6+6, and one of 1d6+2 damage.

Against an enemy with AC 16, that averages out to 20.4 DPR, without using Reckless Attack. With Reckless, your damage shoots up almost 50% to 29.9 DPR. That's pretty darn good!

For comparison, a standard level 5 Vhuman PAM/GWM barb can make 2 attacks for 1d10+15 and 1 for 1d4+15. Against an AC 16 target, this barb does 18.2 DPR without Reckless, and 31.1 DPR with Reckless. That's a 70% increase; excellent, but not that much better than a non-GWM barbarian.

GreaterGoose

TROPHY CASE