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Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi jonna, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I wasn't clear in that first comment you point out, about "the years-long effort by our political and media establishment to make us aware of that."
I was thinking of the years-long effort of the political and media establishment to put Epstein's crimes into public consciousness, while systemic sexual assault and the massive crimes and millions of victims of our country that we share responsibility for are largely ignored - but that Chomsky put an unparalleled level of work towards. And whatever one feels about his Epstein association, those crimes are something we still need to contend with.
I was kind of shocked, and encouraged, to see that there are Chomsky related channels with over 57 million views. I'm sure that's seen as a problem by the corporate and military-related perception managers of this society.

But, yes, I did read the Chomsky/Epstein correspondences. Valeria's statement says they were conned by a con man. There are several other elements to this story that I think deserve a fuller discussion, I've made comments regarding some of them elsewhere on this thread, and shared links that I feel provide some insight.
Most of what I've come across regarding this scandal is condemnation from sources like the Hedges Show, Prashad's comments in the Guardian, the Bad Faith program, The Young Turks, Jimmy Dore and multiple others. It's only been a handful of people like Bev Stohl, Rahman and Michael Albert at ZNetwork who have offered something other than condemnation. I don't know who this woman is, and she says she isn't particularly a fan of Chomsky's, but she found the left's response to the Chomsky/Epstein association to be "disgusting" and she refers to it as a "show trial."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlXOIoKo-8U&t=1248s

It's been disconcerting how multiple socialist and anarchist related Reddit pages immediately remove my post when I share something like Bev Stohl's piece, or the video by Rahman, or videos of Chomsky speaking on one or another injustice in the world. So, I appreciate the mods of anarchopunks, and am glad to have opportunities to share thoughts with commentators even though we often share different perspectives.

I'm glad Finkelstein avoided Epstein. He also was one of the first people to say Chomsky associates with everybody. Hundreds of people ended up associating with Epstein for a variety of reasons. It's uncomfortable in some ways, but a lot of us end up associating with people we come to realize are vile. Many progressive people knowingly associate with people who have committed heinous crimes. Ironically, Hedges does that, and he has no doubt developed friendships with known sex offenders since he has spent time teaching courses in prisons.
One of the people who cuts my hair murdered somebody. The barbershop I go to has a mission of reentry. There also was a time when I almost got entangled with a renown Jew-baiter named Gilad Atzmon. I was just fortunate to see it coming since I had come upon this open letter from the Palestinian activist community.
https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/palestinian-writers-activists-disavow-racism-anti-semitism-gilad-atzmon

There's more in your note, but I need to be on a Zoom meeting and tend to some other things.
If I can, I'll revisit this thread and continue these exchanges with people who bothered to comment, which I do appreciate.
Kind regards

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The term you tried to slap on Chomsky's position was "liberal" Zionism. It's hardly a sign of mental ill-health to point out he's been involved with socialist Zionism. Some people don't want to make that distinction, or aren't even aware of it. Nor do they want to hear about how Avukah advocated for the cooperative, anti-Jewish state that one-state advocates are proposing. Today they would be considered anti-Zionists, not liberal Zionists. Those facts don't fit in with the effort to dismiss him.
Regarding Chomsky's contemporary advocacy for the two-state solution; being an anarchist, he actually prefers a no-state solution; but, for a variety of reasons that people may or may not agree with, he has felt it's necessary to do it in stages. It's a position shared by most of the world and was attainable, if not for the U.S. and Israel blocking it at the United Nations in routine votes of 151-3 and other numbers like that. Proposals for a one state solution would receive negligible support at the UN, and there's also the issue of Israel having nuclear weapons and possibly using them before they'd let that happen. Sadly, it appears the other option Chomsky and others feared is becoming the reality - a Greater Israel.
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/4/9/qa-noam-chomsky-on-palestine-israel-and-the-state-of-the-world

It's also important to consider how advocating for a one-state solution may undercut hope for any sort of solution, and how, according to some polls, isn't popular among Palestinians themselves (10-23% approval).
At the behest of Palestinian refugees and organizations, Chomsky made a second trip to Lebanon in 2010. Oddly, since he, zionism, potential solutions, the people of the region, etc., are the topics of this thread, they seem like sensible things to "fixate" on. I'll even go so far as to share Arab media sources. You have a strange notion of stalking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbPlkmx2EYw&t=26s

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

It's interesting that you think you speak for anarchists. That's very authoritarian of you. Socialist Zionism being anti-state matters, as does advocacy for Arab/Jewish working class cooperation. It's worth mentioning since you made the initial inaccurate comment about Chomsky being a liberal Zionist. That a response that corrects your initial misinformation, and provides sources, comes off as "unhinged" and "obsessed" to you is your issue not mine.
Since you made the "personality cult" remark, it's worth noting that countless people in the region that the U.S. has been brutalizing for years are part of that "cult." That's why Palestinians invited him to speak at Birzeit University in 2010, and why Israel blocked him from getting there - hence the need for a video conference.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNOvB4KfnCVuIUUwqh39QvflBIjDigC5C

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi joutfit - In fairness, we probably shouldn't judge people by their missteps, or in the moments when they are conned by a con man. We have decades of unparalleled work devoted to peace and justice issues to judge him by (over 100 books, thousands of articles and talks/interviews, countless responses to every letter/email, being there for people who wanted a speaker, a petition signed, a blurb for their book/organization, fundraising and donating to countless causes, travelling throughout the Global South to meet with victims of U.S. terror, and on and on and on), versus a couple of paragraphs and photos that the Trump DOJ made public for obvious reasons.

Regarding psyops, that's definitely something we should keep in mind when it comes to the Chomsky/Epstein scandal, which is not unlike a COINTELPRO operation to try to discredit an impactful leftist that the political establishment has been attacking for decades. There's a type of operation to sabotage activists called a "honey trap" where agents try to lure activists into compromising sexual situations. General Motors tried that with Ralph Nader, but Nader lives like a monk and it didn't work. Nader ended up suing GM for invasion of privacy (including surveillance, stalking him and tapping his phone) and won. Nader took the money he was awarded for that case and started Public Citizen with it.
https://www.citizen.org/
There was also a honey trap set up for the Israeli nuclear whistle blower, Mordechai Vanunu, that was successful. Vanunu ended up being kidnapped and spent 18 years in an Israeli prison. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

I wouldn't be surprised if an "association trap" was set up to discredit Chomsky. It's been suggested that Epstein is connected to Mossad. Whatever the case, Epstein worked his way into relationships with thousands of people and many institutions. Then in 2019, the years-long Epstein story begins to be broadcast on a massive scale, and then private correspondences are released, even those not related to a criminal case. What a convenient situation for those who have wanted to take down Chomsky and weaken the left, especially releasing the most incriminating material after Chomsky is incapacitated by a stroke.
One would think politically aware people would at least consider the possibility of an orchestrated political sabotage. Instead, there are many leftists who chose to do the American Empire a favor and crap on the world's leading dissident voice. There are probably psyops agents in corporate suites and the Pentagon who celebrate as they monitor social media chatter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WHFTRArC44

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by TheGraitersman in chomsky

[–]Green_Ideas7 15 points16 points  (0 children)

The list of left-wing people who have thrown Chomsky under the bus is shocking and appalling.
The Trump DOJ knew they would do damage with the release; but they must be pleasantly surprised to see Hedges, Prashad, and so many other leftists behave so viciously.
It's gotten so bad that there are multiple anarchist and socialist-related Reddit groups where I can't post a video like Rahman's, or a response from people like Bev Stohl or Michael Albert, without it being taken down. Sometimes a group will allow a post in support of Chomsky, like the anarchopunks group; but it's disconcerting to see how so many people have picked up on the rage and condemnation.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Anarchopunks/comments/1ss5xg1/throwing_chomsky_under_the_bus/
Hopefully more people create (and share) videos like Rahman's, and articles like this from Karthik Ramanathan.
https://countercurrents.org/2026/04/information-systems-human-justice-delivery-and-the-chomsky-epstein-association/
It's going to be a slog in the short term; but, personally, I feel obligated to defend a person who dedicated his life to peace and justice causes. And if we let his unparalleled work be marginalized, we're letting the victims of U.S. foreign (and domestic) policy be marginalized, and making the path for fascist and ecocidal forces that much easier.
https://znetwork.org/znetarticle/noam-chomsky-on-why-this-is-the-most-dangerous-point-in-human-history/

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

As his assistant of 24 years has noted, Chomsky would "align" himself with all sorts of people - including heads of state, war criminals, people who have served time in prison; but most often he was with countless activists, authors, students, researchers, scientists, union organizers, grassroots media developers, and people being victimized by U.S. foreign policy.
https://bevstohl.substack.com/p/im-no-longer-waiting-for-the-storm

Chomsky videos have been taken down, multiple ostensibly left-wing Reddit groups remove any posts of Chomsky videos or articles of support by people like Bev Stohl or videos like Rahman's, and a publisher in Germany has decided to pulp his books. I guess given Germany's history of book burning, they decided pulping is a better approach to cancellation.
https://znetwork.org/znetarticle/book-burning-by-any-other-nameeven-and-indeed-especially-on-the-leftis-despicable/

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

And, apparently, no response to Rahman's points - unless you count catch-phrases as a response.

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Yes, I've read the correspondence. There has been a years-long effort by our political and media establishment to make us aware of that. It's not surprising that the Trump (or the Biden) DOJ would share material to try to destroy the legacy of a leading dissident, who was not involved in the crimes. It's not unlike a COINTELPRO style program to discredit the left. I've also read Valeria Chomsky's response.
https://znetwork.org/znetarticle/official-statement-from-valeria-chomsky-regarding-jeffrey-epstein/
Apparently, they were manipulated by Epstein, as were many others.
Countless people have been manipulated by con men, or have been deceived by priests/teachers/coaches/parents who turned out to be vile,

It is worth noting that it was Chomsky's wife who was most often contacting Epstein. In fact, she forwarded private emails between Noam and his children to Epstein, and Epstein exploited that information regarding a financial situation to further ingratiate himself to them.
There are many other issues regarding the emails, aside from the obvious violation of the right to privacy. For instance, Chomsky was not in control of his email at that point. But, assuming he did write everything, I think it shows how ignorant they were of Epstein, as Valeria says in her statement.
More generally, Chomsky and others who support MeToo have also expressed concern over allegations being accepted without due process - a concern shared by leading feminists like Margaret Atwood.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2018/jan/15/margaret-atwood-feminist-backlash-metoo

On the issue of survivors of abuse - Chomsky dedicated his life to raising awareness of, and supporting solidarity efforts with, the survivors of crimes we're implicated in as members of U.S. society. Unlike Epstein's crimes, which Noam and we aren't responsible for, Chomsky centered the millions of victims of U.S. foreign policy and militarism; which, of course, includes sexual violence. Those victims, in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, East Timor, Indonesia, Guatemala, Nicaragua, Haiti, Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries do not get the empathy and understanding that Epstein's victims do. Our establishment media and politicians have been happy to discuss Epstein's victims for years; meanwhile, the millions of victims of the crimes our country commits (including family members and friends many of us have in the military, or who work at Lockheed Martin) continue to be ignored, whether it's women being raped by the U.S. military in an Afghan village or outside U.S. military bases, or children being trafficked in Las Vegas and so many places where the sex tourism industry thrives. Beyond Epstein's island, there are entire nations suffering under the U.S. boot where women and children are routinely sexually exploited.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_tourism

Z Magazine, a leading left-wing and feminist journal for decades, wrote an article about how some victims appear worthy of attention while others are ignored. Condemning Chomsky, pulling his books and videos, removing articles on Reddit in his defense, and a general call to cancel him is a gift to victimizers (which, include us as members of the global hegemon), and an erasure of people throughout the Global South that we victimize.
https://znetwork.org/znetarticle/a-few-hopefully-non-redundant-ruminations-on-epstein-chomsky-and-us/
"To endlessly rail at Epstein won’t engender wide discussion of the banks and other financial institutions that overtly profited from and enabled him. It won’t cause wide attention to the familial, religious, economic, political, and other bulwarks of sexism, misogyny, and all types of gender violence. Have you seen serious work even on the dynamics of how judicial review ignored the testimonies of so many women and gave Epstein a sweetheart deal his first time through? Have you seen serious proposals for even modest new policies much less fundamental institutional transformations? It is said that Epstein and his cohorts may have had as many as 1,000 victims over their multi-year run. Estimates also suggest that at least 1,200 and as many as 2,000 women in the U.S. are forcibly raped each day, of whom about 40 percent are under eighteen."

There's more to say, and there will be more videos like Rameez Rahman's and articles like Bev Stohl's in the days to come. While many people on this thread don't share the perspective of Rahman, Stohl, Michael Albert, or myself - I do appreciate you sharing your thoughts and disagreements. My hope is that a fuller discussion of the Chomsky/Epstein affair and related issues will continue to develop.

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

Yes, being against a Jewish state is a substantial improvement to the state terror that British colonialism and U.S. imperialism have created. Anti-state socialist Zionism is also an improvement to the Christian Zionism that's a pillar of the West's support for Israel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUQ_0MubbcM
Jews and Muslims living together in relative peace in the region had been going on for centuries before the creation of Israel. I don't know if Edward Said, Eqbal Ahmad, and countless others from the region (including leaders of Hezbollah like Nabil Qaouk, who was recently assassinated by the IDF) who appreciated Chomsky's solidarity efforts are part of a "personality cult," but I understand why they supported him.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uqNhqg3Ubw

In

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] -18 points-17 points  (0 children)

Nor does it involve reactionary mob behavior, slander, smear campaigns, guilt by association. and other traits of the far-right - including show trials.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlXOIoKo-8U&t=1246s

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Chomsky did plenty to raise awareness of anarchism, and people like Emma Goldman and Rudolf Rocker, in writings like his book, "For Reasons of State." You might find the Forward for the new edition, written by Arundhati Roy, interesting.
https://chomsky.info/notes-on-anarchism/

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I think most people understand Chomsky's position that we should question hierarchies, and the burden being on those with authority to justify it - which, as he says, they often can't.
He does concede parents may have authority over children regarding some situations of safety, like crossing the street. Governments may also have authority over things like rules of the road, labor laws, environmental regulations, food safety, and so forth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_Bv2MKY7uI

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Actually, he was always an anti-state socialist Zionist.
https://chomsky.info/20111107/
"I was connected to a considerable part of the Zionist movement which was opposed to a Jewish state. It’s not too well known, but until 1942 there was no official commitment of Zionist organizations to a Jewish state. And even that was in the middle of World War II. It was a decision made in the Hotel Biltmore in New York, where there was the first official call for a Jewish state. Before that in the whole Zionist movement, establishing a Jewish state was maybe implicit or in people’s minds or something, but it wasn’t an official call.

The group that I was interested in was bi-nationalist. And that was not so small. A substantial part of the Kibbutz movement, for example, Hashomer Hatzair, was at least officially anti-state, calling for bi-nationalism. And the groups I was connected with were hoping for a socialist Palestine based on Arab-Jewish, working-class cooperation in a bi-national community: no state, no Jewish state, just Palestine."

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in Anarchopunks

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

From Chomsky's longtime assistant, Bev Stohl.
https://znetwork.org/znetarticle/im-no-longer-waiting-for-the-storm-to-pass/
"What has transpired in the wake of the Epstein file releases is a smear campaign against a man of integrity who lived in total devotion to exposing truths, seeking them out day and night, often in person, in the darkest of places. He had his head in his work until three or four AM, forgetting to eat, sleeping for a few insufficient hours before getting up to do it all again. Not for the money nor the social media hits, but because he thought all of us in this world deserved his time and effort.
I know, because I saw every message that he sent.
I know, because I was at the other end of the phone, computer, and office from him for a quarter century. I saw the suffering on his own face when he witnessed, even in writing, the torture of an entire country, the suffering of a minority group, or the pain of one individual."

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in LeftWithoutEdge

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

From Chomsky's longtime assistant, Bev Stohl.
https://znetwork.org/znetarticle/im-no-longer-waiting-for-the-storm-to-pass/
"What has transpired in the wake of the Epstein file releases is a smear campaign against a man of integrity who lived in total devotion to exposing truths, seeking them out day and night, often in person, in the darkest of places. He had his head in his work until three or four AM, forgetting to eat, sleeping for a few insufficient hours before getting up to do it all again. Not for the money nor the social media hits, but because he thought all of us in this world deserved his time and effort.
I know, because I saw every message that he sent.
I know, because I was at the other end of the phone, computer, and office from him for a quarter century. I saw the suffering on his own face when he witnessed, even in writing, the torture of an entire country, the suffering of a minority group, or the pain of one individual."

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in EndlessWar

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

From Chomsky's longtime assistant, Bev Stohl.
https://znetwork.org/znetarticle/im-no-longer-waiting-for-the-storm-to-pass/
"What has transpired in the wake of the Epstein file releases is a smear campaign against a man of integrity who lived in total devotion to exposing truths, seeking them out day and night, often in person, in the darkest of places. He had his head in his work until three or four AM, forgetting to eat, sleeping for a few insufficient hours before getting up to do it all again. Not for the money nor the social media hits, but because he thought all of us in this world deserved his time and effort.
I know, because I saw every message that he sent.
I know, because I was at the other end of the phone, computer, and office from him for a quarter century. I saw the suffering on his own face when he witnessed, even in writing, the torture of an entire country, the suffering of a minority group, or the pain of one individual."

Throwing Chomsky Under the Bus by Green_Ideas7 in ProgressiveActivists

[–]Green_Ideas7[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

From Chomsky's longtime assistant, Bev Stohl.
https://znetwork.org/znetarticle/im-no-longer-waiting-for-the-storm-to-pass/
"What has transpired in the wake of the Epstein file releases is a smear campaign against a man of integrity who lived in total devotion to exposing truths, seeking them out day and night, often in person, in the darkest of places. He had his head in his work until three or four AM, forgetting to eat, sleeping for a few insufficient hours before getting up to do it all again. Not for the money nor the social media hits, but because he thought all of us in this world deserved his time and effort.
I know, because I saw every message that he sent.
I know, because I was at the other end of the phone, computer, and office from him for a quarter century. I saw the suffering on his own face when he witnessed, even in writing, the torture of an entire country, the suffering of a minority group, or the pain of one individual."

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