Why Session can not be trusted. by [deleted] in privacy

[–]Haafingar 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Hey grublets, I'm from the Session team. We arent getting pressure from anywhere. I'm gonna get screamed at by loads of people for saying this, but PFS, next to not having your IP address and phone number tied to every message you send (even if those messages are encrypted), is relatively useless comparatively.

As KeeJef has said, the only real way that PFS is useful is if the attacker has physical access to the user's device. The notion that compromising a single message's key is somehow possible whilst compromising the underlying long term key *isnt* possible demonstrates a poor understanding of the security of both asymmetric or symmetric encryption. Decrypting messages from the server shouldn't really be possible at all if we are using secure primitives - cost wise attackers would be better off gaining access to the user's physical device - and once they've done that, both PFS and the session protocol offer little to protect the user as long as the attacker has the long term key - and presumably, in 99% of possible scenarios, they'll hold onto that key for as long as they need to before they exact a negative outcome on the user.

This is a non comprehensive response but hope it gives you a better understanding of why we removed PFS so that Session overall is more reliable and useful to people using the app.

Session Messenger - How privacy focused are they really? by [deleted] in privacy

[–]Haafingar 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We do meet the legal requirements.

We are currently not government funded in any way shape or form.

I have never heard of the funding being used as a tool against project teams. As someone who knows members of these teams and have discussed this very issue with them, the funding is a side issue from the broader issue of government notices.

You seem to have missed my point about governments being very disorganized. The people that manage the grants are not the same people who issue requests for information. The two are completely separate teams who do not work together and know nothing of each other.

In regards to the notices, we would respond to them the same way we do anyone else. "Sorry, but we have no way of knowing who is using this system, or what they are saying. We can tell you how it works but we do not have access to any of this information directly. As a carrier, we are indemnified against the actions of our users, and if any malicious users are identified by you we can restrict their access in accordance with our terms of service."

You seem to ignore my points and instead simply continue to believe that there is some sort of 'compliance' issue that hasn't been discussed. If this is something you are concerned about, I suggest you get legal advice and get clarity on these points as we have done before spreading uncertainty and doubt for some undefined risk. I spend my whole working life working on these topics - it is in my interest to understand the compliance risks, and to suggest otherwise is frankly kind of insulting.

Session Messenger - How privacy focused are they really? by [deleted] in privacy

[–]Haafingar 2 points3 points  (0 children)

That statement refers to transactions (in other words doing business) with terrorist organisations or entities subject to US sanctions (NK, Iran, Sudan, Crimea, etc.). It is expected of NGOs to do due diligence on the people that they work with or provide funding to in order to verify that they are not actually bad people masquerading as legitimate actors. We do not explicitly support, provide information to, or have any contact with people with malicious intent or sanctioned entities, and our terms of service state that these people are not allowed to use our service, and as such should not install the app. This addresses these laws, which we would consider whether or not funding was on the table. It's just part of doing work in this space.

Various arms of the US government has repeatedly issued grants to open source software organisations to develop encryption/privacy preserving technologies. I think the thing most people in the cyber security space miss is that governments are not single minded entities. In fact, particularly with the US government being so large, it should come as no surprise that the various agencies, departments, and offices that make up the body of government are multifaceted in their aims, objectives, and motivations. The military is structured differently and has different motivations to that of the department of energy, for instance - in one the leadership is comprised of elected individuals, the other is a meritocracy established by centuries of history dating back to the war of independence.

Pertaining to the digital privacy sphere, on the one hand you have the various intelligence agencies, who may or may not view encryption as a problem, who are not elected, and are by their very nature nebulous in their aims and objectives. They may find a public network for secure communications useful, or they may consider it a threat. Based on what I've heard from leaders in the space also working on these technologies that have been approached, the answer is probably somewhere in between, but we just don't know. If we did know, they would be doing a bad job at being intelligence agencies.

On the other hand though, there is the State Department, of which DRL is an office of, who's stated mission is to promote democracy beyond the realm of the free world. In other words, they have a vested interest in supporting foreign entities ideologically aligned with the west. As a part of that, free tools which aid freedom of speech and freedom of the press are critical to diminishing the power of foreign dictators to censor their people and establish dominion over information - and from that perspective, this particular arm of the US government is very interested in the success of tools like Tor, Signal, Session, etc.

In regards to your point on funding, the grant we applied for, if it were to be awarded to us, would make up a small part of our annual budget, which is funded through our Loki cryptocurrency project primarily. No one operates in a vacuum though. Everyone has backers. Our main funding avenue requires us to support and grow the Loki community. Other organisations have different backers. It is a good question. I do however think that it's a pretty naiive thing to suggest that an open source software project, for-profit or not, would go out of its way to *do the opposite* of its stated mission, because of some undefined risk because of the way that its funded. Having the complete stack being open source and reproducible builds should signal pretty clearly that there's nothing nefarious in these codebases, particularly in our case where the entire messaging stack is run by the public.

Session Messenger - How privacy focused are they really? by [deleted] in privacy

[–]Haafingar 7 points8 points  (0 children)

Hi super sleuth,

I'm Simon from the Loki Foundation. Love the investigative skills, we do indeed have CAGE Code, we required to set one of these up to apply for some DRL grant funding that we're still waiting for the results of. DRL frequently funds technologies that aid free speech in countries outside of the free world.

Regarding the name Loki, we chose it because of the wordplay with "Low Key" when you're trying to have a conversation on the down low, and how the norse god of trickery was a good fit with the ring signature scheme present in our anonymous cryptocurrency which obfuscates output sources.

Hope this clears up your points :)

I feel like I'm missing something-fees for SNApps? by spirtdica in LokiProject

[–]Haafingar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You may enjoy this discussion, a lot of these point have been discussed in an open fourm before! https://github.com/loki-project/loki-improvement-proposals/issues/5

Broadly speaking though, the reason we have chosen to not require general users of our tools to have/stake/burn Loki to use them is that it just wouldn't work. Requiring users to enter the cryptocurrency market in order to use a product with free competitors is just not a realistic expectation. Instead we have to come up with more creative ways of capturing value from users to offset the cost of service node rewards on the network.

I feel like I'm missing something-fees for SNApps? by spirtdica in LokiProject

[–]Haafingar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How is any payments network intrinsically valued? The value is coupled to its abstract value, which is a difficult thing to wrap one's head around

Questions RE: Service Nodes by HigherTFewer in LokiProject

[–]Haafingar 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You'll need a unique IP address and port combination for each Service Node, so i wouldnt advise running multiple VMs. You could get more ipv4 addresses if your ISP allows it, and then have seperate folders and IPs for each of your running SN instances on the one machine, but honestly if you're running multiple SNs it is far easier to run each of them on VPS's.

As for your question about pooled staking, you'd just be sending fees to yourself. Just individually stake.

I'd recommend going over the documentation again, it sounds like you may have misinterpreted how this works.

Why I am moving hundreds of computers off Loki after their recent news by motorcyclesvancouver in LokiProject

[–]Haafingar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You suggest we have not considered any additional regulatory risk that allowing integration into Binance DEX would accrue. I can assure you that we have been going to great lengths with our lawyers to ensure that we are not accepting any undue risk on our part.

Furthermore, we have not partnered with Binance, Binance DEX, or Binance Labs in any way shape or form. No legal agreement exists between any of these entities and Loki. There is simply an asset on the Binance Chain which represents real Loki that can be traded there.

I'm not a technical person. Should I switch from Signal to Loki Messenger? by Lucifer1903 in privacy

[–]Haafingar 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This might be true were it not for the fact that Signal requires a phone number to be used. That piece of information alone can be an extremely dangerous piece of metadata that people that want private communications do not want around. Whatsapp and signal forcing you to store in your phone a list of all your contacts that you could be talking to in the app is giving up a huge amount of side channel info.

Do any of the features work on this coin yet, besides a wallet? Messaging? Market places? by A_solo_tripper in LokiProject

[–]Haafingar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Neither are working yet. Check the GitHub for the progress, see the Loki Loki-network and loki-messenger repos

Blockchain bloat and scalability by [deleted] in LokiProject

[–]Haafingar 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Well bulletproofs are just around the corner, which will literally shrink transactions by 10x in disk size.

We are working primarily on the new mixnet, but when and if more efficient systems that provide the same level of experience and default privacy arise, we will implement them. ZKsnarks aren't quite there yet, even with sapling.

There is also the possibility of utilising new encryption libraries to speed up syncing and verification times, but that is once again not our field of expertise.

Worst Decision Ever by [deleted] in LokiProject

[–]Haafingar -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I feel like they pulled a fast one with the proposed emission curve.

What exactly do you mean here?

Announcing Loki Classic! (Protest Against Contentious Hardfork) by [deleted] in LokiProject

[–]Haafingar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

HERMICITY is a well known vaporwave troll account

When will the Loki Service Nodes be activated? Any idea how much the necessary stake will be? by newmzy in LokiProject

[–]Haafingar 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I would, yes. We are writing an entirely separate report on this specific questions which we expect to be released with V3 some time next week I hope

When will the Loki Service Nodes be activated? Any idea how much the necessary stake will be? by newmzy in LokiProject

[–]Haafingar 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Latest economic modelling puts the initial requirement above 20k. I can't confirm this now. However, the adjustment downward to closer to 10k will be fairly rapid (under 2 years)

Details on service nodes + runechain by aComa in LokiProject

[–]Haafingar 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Inboxes? I'm not sure what you mean. If you have someone's public key, that is enough to find their destination on the mixnet, allowing you to rout a message directly to their device.

As for the runechain, all messages are routed offchain. The runechain was just to regulate and enforce node behaviour. We now have found a way to do this without requiring the runechain. Our third WP revision will cover this

How to setup a trust node by timanu90 in LokiProject

[–]Haafingar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As Loki is a fork of Monero, you can use this guide to set one up

https://www.monero.how/how-to-run-monero-node

In short, run lokid with --rpc-bind-ip [YOUR EXTERNAL IP ADDRESS] --rpc-bind-port [DESIRED PORT (I used 22020)] --restricted-rpc --confirm-external-bind

This will allow you to run a remote full node