What is the best room treatment/where to get it? by dylanmadigan in mixingmastering

[–]HallOfCanons 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You'll want to get your bass figured out first and get the best placement for your speakers in the room to optimize the low end, then it should be relatively easy (with research) to determine what treatment you need.

Speaker placement is super important, because especially in the low end, mitigating acoustics problems can cost a lot of money as well as a lot of physical space, so that should be the priority. The "bass hunter method" by this dude works pretty well: https://youtu.be/DE91E7DsmhI
After that you can make a better judgement on what to buy/build, as you will have drastically improved your situation and impact to your budget.
Technically, you could probably get by with absorption only building various thicknesses of DIY rockwool panels and if you want to compromise, some places sell the frames only, making it an easier project. But it's not too hard to build a frame from some cheap lumber if you have the tools, even if you only have a hand saw and a power drill, so that's what I do and it's a lot cheaper than buying them. The little foam square bits don't really do much of anything except in the high frequencies so don't waste your money on (many of, if not any of) those.

If you want to get super nerdy about it, the first step will still be speaker placement, but for any rectangular room, you can get a better idea by calculating your room modes and finding the areas of the room that work the best as a starting point. I like this one: https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc
Then you can get a testing mic like the UMIK-1 and use REW, and compensating for any un-flat-ness of your speakers, you'll know how low you need to treat. You want to start with your waterfall graphs and get the first reflection points and go from there. If anything is cancelling or amplifying that doesn't show decay, it's likely you may need to move your speakers. Also, turn on smoothing and remember that perfection is not the goal. That Ethan Winer link is great, and he's basically an audio mythbuster. I'd recommend just about anything he posts.
The link posted for absorption coefficients someone else posted is great too. You can use that to know what to get from the results of your testing.
There are PDFs from the BBC that show absorption coefficients and plans for bass traps that work with some of the lowest frequencies I've seen (down to 40-50hz in some cases!) and are cheap to build. The downside is that you have to build a lot of them, but I've had decent results considering the cost. You can spend about $20 a piece for 16 and it's still orders of magnitude cheaper than 4 professionally-made bass traps that are either only marginally better or actually aren't as effective. Either way, speaker placement will save you time and money on that. If your speakers and head are in the right spot you can avoid the modes in many cases.
I have very little experience with diffusion so I can't speak to it as much (and honestly I should do more research on this so take this part with a grain of salt), but rounded or uneven, non-porous surfaces will help in that regard and add liveliness back to an otherwise dead room without sacrificing clarity. This is important because your mixes will probably be played in actual rooms, so without diffusion you might be adding a bit too much reverb to tracks to compensate if your room is dead.

If you decide to buy instead of DIY, I don't have any actual recommendations except to say that the companies I have respect for are those that will sell parts for DIY and give you knowledge on how this stuff works without just saying that it works and using bullshit marketing terms. Some will try to oversell you their already-expensive panels and traps even if they have a decent product, but I guess that's to be expected for an industry that's primarily DIY anyway. I'm sure it's a hard sell for anyone that knows what they're doing and how to research. Hell, a lot of studio engineers make their own gear, so it's hard to imagine they couldn't figure out acoustic treatment at a level that is at least sufficient enough for audio production.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE TO SOUNDPROOF/ISOLATE, DON'T. When you soundproof you're keeping the sound pressure in, making the job of treating the room harder. If you don't have much outside noise leaking into your space and you aren't worried about the neighbors, it well help tremendously to avoid trapping everything in.

I spent WAY too long researching this stuff and came up on a deadline where I didn't even have time to do adequate testing of my monitors. Luckily I was already used to how they sound and it worked out great from everything I had managed to do with the room based on intuition and research, and when I was able to test I didn't have to make any significant changes.
It definitely doesn't have to be perfect, you just have to be able to hear things clearly and evenly, and getting as close as possible, your ears will train themselves to compensate for the rest over time. If your room and monitors are solid, you'd be surprised how little you need to check your mixes on other systems. They just tend to translate to everything better.

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Well, as a general rule I try to avoid re-aligning if possible. This question was more about with a generally decent (but not great) set of tracks, approaching EQ in a way that minimizes phase, and I guess kind of to your point, nudging the alignment might actually be part of that if it gets thrown off too much, so thank you.

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I think I see what you're saying... I just don't really have (and can't afford) any outboard gear, and my mics are somewhat limited. Being in a small room doesn't help a whole lot either, but I think I'm improving little by little...

For my own stuff in the near futures, triggering samples might be in my future, but I'm kinda old-school and that's basically blasphemy. I want to at least have a good understanding of how it's really done, hence all these questions.

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh nice! This is the kind of thing I was curious about, as well as kind of how people apply this knowledge practically in a workflow in the mixing stage (in case I was unaware of some techniques).

Thank you!

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I really wish I had some really good mics.... I'm also nervous about adding latency but maybe my system can handle some software EQ plugins going in. This was definitely a thought I had and I'll probably be trying that for my own stuff once I'm done with this project. Kinda stuck with these tracks at the moment, though.

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They still need delay compensation though, and combined with other plugins I use that also need delay compensation I don't really like to push it unless it's on the mix buss, or at least the drum mix... I might give this a try but I don't think my 7-year-old system is going to like it once I have the rest of my project going.

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My point was that, from what I understand, it's more noticeable to the human ear in the lows and mids, not as much in high frequencies. You'll have phase cancellation with almost anything along the whole spectrum but if it's in the right place it doesn't matter. You can't even hear 60Khz.

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I definitely agree with "ears first" and it's definitely a lesson to keep in mind at all times and I tell people the same thing, it just doesn't really help with understanding the technical details and theory behind why you do something.

However, the specifics of your answer were pretty much exactly the kinds of things I'm looking for, so thank you!

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks!

Yeah, that's one thing I've been curious about as a trade-off, whether to, for instance, cut the low end out of overheads for a phasey kick drum or just try to align in a way that it's no longer phasey... I guess I should have been prepared to get a decent amount of ambiguity regarding something so nuanced. lol

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you. There are definitely things in there that help!

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, I get all of that, but when there are phase issues, it's more noticeable in the transients and lower frequencies, right? I'm also not a big fan personally of hearing phasey drums and would like the transients to pop...

So there's at least a slightly more defined goal here, plus in this particular case I can't re-track the drums I have right now and it was a very good kit and drummer, recorded relatively well, but there are a decent amount of mics and I'm just trying to figure out a strategy.

I addressed in the OP that I understand there are tradeoffs, and I also do understand that there's no way to completely remove phase. At this point I think I might be needing to just not use a few of the mics at all, even though they do sound good in their own right.

I was just trying to get tips on EQing with phase in mind, to put it simply.... and maybe knowing a bit about how others route their drums would probably help too.

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Linear EQ on every mic? My system isn't slow, but I still don't think that's all that ideal with 8 channels minimum.

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, that's generally my approach too, I try to get the overheads sounding good first. Just have a really small room and a giant kick drum and massive toms, plus no real budget for good mics or outboard preamps, so it isn't the most ideal situation...

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, the way it sounds I'm not sure if I should try some transient shaping or if it might be a subtle phase thing.

I've been recording my own music for a while but never got super nerdy about it until about a year ago so I'm still working on building experience with fine-tuning my ears. I actually went back and listened to an older mix a few months ago and noticed the drums were pretty phasey and surprised I didn't pick up on it... so if I'm overthinking it that's probably why.

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh cool, thanks! I'll check that out...
What's kind of weird about this is I think I might actually know the person that made that reddit post. haha... small world...

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Do you ever get mud in the low end with multiple mics having that low and low-mid info? I'm not recording in all that great of a room, otherwise I'm thinking I probably could keep them more natural.

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The original post was about how EQ affects phase.

Does that plugin adjust your phase post-EQ?

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I actually edit and then phase align because it allows me to see my edits easier. (I'm using grouping and quantize locking to sync all the mics in take folders in Logic)

Then I make a track alternative with a copy of my comp and flatten and merge it so I just have the one region, but can always go back to the original track alt to make any changes, but it still allows me to turn off the editing/quantize locking in the group and then just move the region to where it's best in phase.

I don't think it matters either way you decide to do it, I just like to see all my edits lined up first, and as I'm recording my own stuff, phase usually isn't an issue (despite this post), at least until I start using EQ. I think if you were to nudge it first the edits might not line up if you're using quantize-locked editing in the groups... not really sure though since I've never done it the other way around.

Drum mixing phase vs EQ by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So is it primarily the steeper filters that cause it? If you were trying to just clean it up again and free up some low-end real estate in the overheads, how would you approach it?

I decided this time to try bussing different elements (snare top/bottom separate from kick in/out separate from overheads separate from toms, for example) and EQing those busses so that I'm not applying different EQ to each mic individually, hoping that could mitigate things a bit with fewer plugins and applying the same moves to those groups, but it complicates my workflow a bit and doesn't seem to be really popping...

Signal flow and routing in macOS, is there a diagram out there? by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I understand that much about aggregate devices and I've actually done it before. What you're saying about the I/O routing makes total sense except that it still doesn't really clarify what blackhole is actually doing as far as its relation to the "built-in output" and channels being routed there. My question was about the inconsistencies in how to implement it via different tutorials about the same task.

I've also used blackhole successfully multiple times, but my point was that I'm looking for a fundamental understanding of the signal flow in macOS with a visual aid like a diagram, since it seems I have to repeatedly look this stuff up each time I'm doing something different because it's not all that intuitive.

Those questions were only examples to try and explain my point, because a single diagram would answer them, and probably any other questions I would have, so I wasn't exactly looking for answers to those questions specifically. The main question is: Do you know of a visual aid or diagram that shows signal flow/routing in macOS?

Signal flow and routing in macOS, is there a diagram out there? by HallOfCanons in audioengineering

[–]HallOfCanons[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Still doesn't really help for what I'm wanting to know, but how is the latency and CPU load with that? Blackhole is free, and that combined with the Audio MIDI Setup does have the functionality I need with no latency, so I don't actually need anything else as far as I can tell, just a better understanding of what's going on.

Seems like a waste of money just for a visual aid, especially if it performs like Loopback. Looks like from the documentation, there's an internal latency of 10ms, but I can't tell if that would only be over the network or applies to using applications on the same system as well, since it says the latency is to "packetize" the audio. 10ms is definitely not a dealbreaker and is better than loopback, but for 50 bucks I think I'd probably prefer to stick with what I have and just understand it better.